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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 8th April 2014
  #2521
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul brown View Post
you might not want to mention this as a qualifier to your opinion having more validity. you could introduce expert bias, also known as the logical fallacy arguing from authority. also maybe some survivorship bias based on how you rate your success and the reason why it happened.
I love the way forums introduce a kind of artificial levelling. All men are created equal attitude.
Fact is, when I work with experienced recording engineers they hear stuff I'm not hearing.
Did a session once on a vintage desk. Everything sounded great. All the people in the room were happy as the day progressed, except for the recording engineer. he could hear something not quite right, but couldn't say exactly what it was.
It took us half a day of intensive analysis and trouble shooting to find certain parts of the desk were wired wrongly - to cut a long story short.
But yes, people who have made a living listening to sounds, and work in studios day after day for years of their life, can hear things the rest of us can't.
Old 8th April 2014
  #2522
If you can hear it, you can hear it. But if you can hear it, you can prove it.

A hundred years of hard-headed, much investigated perceptual science has got us to the the understanding we have now. Tested across ranges of people over and over. That testing has given us the body of evidence upon which we rest the accepted conclusions of perceptual science. Science is always reinvestigating itself and extending our knowledge, but it is through the scientific process of gathering evidence, formulating ideas about why the evidence is as it is, and then inventing ways of testing that understanding and then reviewing and replicating those tests to help solidify conclusions.

If one believes something outside the conclusions drawn from that carefully pursued science -- it is up to that person to come up with credible evidence to support that novel theory. Otherwise, it is perfectly fair for others to dismiss his theorizing as probable fantasy.


Anyone is free to believe whatever they want on their own time. But when they start telling other people that 'science is wrong' about something, they had better be prepared to back that up with real, credible evidence -- or be dismissed outright.
Old 8th April 2014
  #2523
Yes.
All I'm saying is that even given the science, I can't hear things someone who has trained their ear can hear.
So if science says 192khz is redundant because no one can hear the difference, that's fine.
But when it comes to blind tests (in the other part of this debate), yes an experienced or trained ear can hear things most of the rest of us can't.
Old 8th April 2014
  #2524
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I love the way forums introduce a kind of artificial levelling. All men are created equal attitude.
All of this can be proven in a simple a/b/x test. If a difference exists in hearing, it will come out. I would NOT be surprised to find that people can hear more than I can... those who do it every day SHOULD be able to hear more.

They should also be able to demonstrate that knowledge, if it exists, in controlled testing.
Old 8th April 2014
  #2525
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Yes.
All I'm saying is that even given the science, I can't hear things someone who has trained their ear can hear.
So if science says 192khz is redundant because no one can hear the difference, that's fine.
But when it comes to blind tests (in the other part of this debate), yes an experienced or trained ear can hear things most of the rest of us can't.
Absolutely.

I'm not saying outliers -- even someone seemingly far outside previously tested norms -- aren't somehow possible.

I'm just saying if someone is claiming to be able to perceive what no one else has ever been proved to be able to perceive, that that is a extraordinary claim that would seem to require credible, corroborating evidence, since it would seem require the extension of the established limits of perception.
Old 8th April 2014
  #2526
Sure.
Old 8th April 2014
  #2527
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Sure.




Group hug and then let's find Monkey and get this thing closed!


J/K. I'm all for open ended discussion.

And I DO think it's important every once in a while for guys like me (science fan types) to remind folks that just because we can be a bit anal about evidence and logic, it doesn't mean by a stretch that we necessarily think anyone is being disingenuous or trying to put something over on anyone.*

I think it would be surprising if we all DID agree on anything.


* EDIT: Anyone here. I think some folks, like me, do have a certain innate trust of marketing speak -- for me that's been nearly lifelong but it really came into focus when I WAS a marketer for a small electronics manufacturer. Thankfully not in the music/audio but in the communications sector. But still plenty of snake oil.

And I know because my old boss, genius though he may have been (and he wasn't the only one who thought he was), was one snakey, oily guy. I was with him at two companies. Colorful does not begin to do justice to him. And things could get heavy; at the end of company one, people were checking their cars before starting them. Some very unhappy investors got pulled down the drain on that one. I got out before things got weird in the second one. Over the years the guy started five comm gear manufacturers and rode at least two into the ground (and two were sold as they were circling the drain).
Old 8th April 2014
  #2528
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
But when it comes to blind tests (in the other part of this debate), yes an experienced or trained ear can hear things most of the rest of us can't.
certainly

as a matter of science, I am willing to accept the result of even one or two individuals who consistently do better than chance.

as a matter of morality, I question the marketing of something that only one or two individuals can hear as a "vast improvement" for the rest of us.

as a matter of economics, I am reluctant to get involved in something that does not help me or my clients gain a genuine competitive edge. Sounding better to one or two golden-ears is not that "edge".

As a matter of personal listening, I won't spend one extra dime for an improvement I cannot hear for myself when I don't have "help" from my placebos.
Old 8th April 2014
  #2529
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post

I think it would be surprising if we all DID agree on anything.
Now that I can agree with! Um... wait...
Old 8th April 2014
  #2530
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
certainly
Yeah. As I said right from the start and have repeated over and over. The Pono project with it's emphasis on 192khz releases of back catalogue at a premium pricepoint is not going to do anything to help the average working musician monetise their work and connect honestly with their audience.
That's what we really need. Something to incentivise the public to support recorded music by paying for it.
I always liken it to the Farmer's Market.
Cut out the middleman (supermarket - major label) and add perceived value (humane or organic practices - choice and quality in music).
I would like to buy good quality audio from my favourite artists and directly support their work. But quite often I'm blocked from CD quality, and more often the music i want isn't available - locked up in some deleted release or (worse) region locked.
The best thing you could say about Pono is that it connects artists with the public - but that's about it.
Old 8th April 2014
  #2532
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Yeah. As I said right from the start and have repeated over and over. The Pono project with it's emphasis on 192khz releases of back catalogue at a premium pricepoint is not going to do anything to help the average working musician monetise their work and connect honestly with their audience.
That's what we really need. Something to incentivise the public to support recorded music by paying for it.
I always liken it to the Farmer's Market.
Cut out the middleman (supermarket - major label) and add perceived value (humane or organic practices - choice and quality in music).
I would like to buy good quality audio from my favourite artists and directly support their work. But quite often I'm blocked from CD quality, and more often the music i want isn't available - locked up in some deleted release or (worse) region locked.
The best thing you could say about Pono is that it connects artists with the public - but that's about it.
I like the way you think. It's why I like Bandcamp so much. (And BC is already 'hi def' friendly, that is, 'sample rate agnostic' -- you can upload high SR files and the FLAC version will stay in that SR but be downconverted for other formats. Bring our own Toblerone. )

Unfortunately, Joe and Mary Sixpack pretty much seem to head to iTunes and Amazon reflexively. :(
Old 8th April 2014
  #2533
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
We hardly need a very "sensitive" test when the differences are so enormous!

I don't need to SEE THE FISH in order to know when I am "underwater".

The ABX software is free. You can test yourself in the privacy of your own home. Nobody has to know. Well not quite true - you will know. Many ABX tests can be "forced choice" which rather than being 'insensitive' can allow peoples subconscious hunches to play out statistically over time. The people who are afraid of blind testing make these wimpy little arguments against it. Which would almost be reasonable if we were talking about a teeny tiny subtle difference that maybe conditions have to be just right in order to hear it.

But Hi-Res Audio not that kind of tiny difference, supposedly. Remember, this is the same HUGE Night and Day difference that people staggered out of Neil's car going: "WOW" about! The same difference that justifies asking consumers to:
1. buy an expensive new player
2. fit fewer songs in that player
3. repurchase all their favorite recordings
4. pay a premium price for those new recordings

Yet here in this thread, even the people ADVOCATING for higher sampling rates don't have enough confidence in the hi-res product to listen to it with their eyes closed! To even try it privately just once.



You have been very clear about your HOPES that the new mode of attending to it will "come along" with the new player. I predict it won't. You predict it will, but your prediction is just as much of a guess as mine. IMO, on several occasions now, you have come very close to saying here that it doesn't even matter if Pono sounds better or not, as long at it changes the way people listen to music back to the way they used to listen to music. Is this about right?

Is it even moral to push something we know doesn't make That Much Difference by pretending it does? Even for "their own good"? And we know it doesn't make That Much Difference because we have to make excuses about how 'difficult' the test is. As Kenny put it so perfectly - it's debatable. If its debatable, then it's a small difference. At best.

I also don't think it is wise to hitch your "attending" wagon to this player and these files. HOW people listen to music, and WHICH product they buy, are not inherently connected and it is a big mistake to try and force that connection, because if it fails, you lose your last chance to influence them on this topic.

You are my hero!!!
Old 8th April 2014
  #2534
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisj View Post
...
It makes this whole line of discourse very weird since I (unlike most) HAVE done an ABX test and aced it. ...
I wouldn't be able to do the cymbal thing over just any speakers, either. The NS-10s are toppy enough that you get a sense of it. I'd also be able to use my Senn HD600s: I actually stripped away the stuff protecting the drivers so they're bare, and I'd be running it off a Lavry DA10 which has a killer headphone amp. That's what I'm driving the NS10s with. ...
Chris,
Did you try playing the difference files provided? If so, did you hear anything?

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisj View Post
... it's also worth looking for vested interests. ...
My vested interest is opposite. ...
... so we will balance your opinion against Monty's.
Old 8th April 2014
  #2535
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
But yes, people who have made a living listening to sounds, and work in studios day after day for years of their life, can hear things the rest of us can't.
True. But high resolution audio isn't that thing. Or else many of would be using it. And we're not.
Old 8th April 2014
  #2536
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strings's Avatar
"Many people here make arguments about higher sampling rate sounding more "analog"... or more like vinyl.. or more like tape. These are the magical thinking posts that have caused this thread to get this long."

I completely agree.

I think what happens sometimes is post are being misconstrued, and I'm a good example of that.

I made a post a few days ago saying I "prefer" the sound of cassettes and albums over CDs and then over the next few pages I see people posting things like:
If you think the Pono is going to sound like a cassette or an album, then you are going to be very dissappointed.

Well I don't think the Pono is going to sound like a cassette or album.
Also I really can't see the Pono taking over the Ipod anytime soon, but I'm glad someone is pushing a "possible" better alternative than an MP3 player, even if the marketing of it is over-hyped. Then again what marketing isn't?
Old 8th April 2014
  #2537
mixmixmix
Guest
Everything has its limits. Including human hearing. But if we believe this, then there is less fun in music aprecciation. So this hi-res phenomena is a new form of religion - nobody can prove it, yet people argue it is there. Just like religious faith.

Because of religious faith and the way it inspires artists we've had most amazing art created over the history of humankind. Let's hope that the faith in hi-rez will also positively affect current music making. This way it will be fully justified investment of time and money.

Neil Young, Ponomafia and others are just trying to milk that faith, just like people who sell fragments of the Jesus nails etc. You can find those in every market place. We will forgive them for their mild sin - greed.

Last edited by mixmixmix; 8th April 2014 at 03:19 AM.. Reason: grammar
Old 8th April 2014
  #2538
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by strings View Post
I made a post a few days ago saying I "prefer" the sound of cassettes and albums over CDs and then over the next few pages I see people posting things like:
If you think the Pono is going to sound like a cassette or an album, then you are going to be very dissappointed.

Well I don't think the Pono is going to sound like a cassette or album.
Also I really can't see the Pono taking over the Ipod anytime soon, but I'm glad someone is pushing a "possible" better alternative than an MP3 player, even if the marketing of it is over-hyped. Then again what marketing isn't?
When you make a post about preferring cassettes in a thread about Pono... and expressing approval for pono... then one would certainly logically conclude maybe you were mixing things up a bit.

But I'm glad you cleared it up.
Old 8th April 2014
  #2539
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strings's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
When you make a post about preferring cassettes in a thread about Pono... and expressing approval for pono... then one would certainly logically conclude maybe you were mixing things up a bit.

But I'm glad you cleared it up.
Good point!

And I'm guilty of straying off topic allot of the time.
Old 8th April 2014
  #2540
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by strings View Post
Then again what marketing isn't?
Really?

You really think that ALL marketing is "over hyped" like this?

Where it claims things that aren't even possible or even sensible along with night and day differences that are "debatable" at best?

Are you this forgiving with all advertising?

Where the best steak in your life becomes an average hamburger and your date starts to complain and you say "but honey, all advertising is over-hyped".

Aren't we supposed to call out B.S. for being B.S.?

I feel like I'm surrounded by people who want something to be true so bad, that they'll ignore every reasonable argument that goes against it.

Ignoring fact after fact and rationalizing over-hyped promises.

Why? Because they they're trying to do something that you would want to happen?

So if I build a machine that will make clean drinking water for under-developed countries, whether it works or not doesn't matter? Because my "heart" is in the right place?

Do you guys also believe in Sylvia Browne and John Edwards?

Sure. They can't really talk to the dead, but wouldn't it be great if they could?

C'mon.
Old 8th April 2014
  #2541
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strings's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Really?

You really think that ALL marketing is "over hyped" like this?

Where it claims things that aren't even possible or even sensible along with night and day differences that are "debatable" at best?...
Well, yeah I do and sometimes allot worse. If I paid attention to most of the TV commercials out there, I would be getting layed for drinking a certain beer, smoking a certain cigarette (in the past), driving a certain car, etc, etc.

At this point, I don't know how over hyped the product is, because I (or anyone else on here) haven't heard it yet.
I certainly don't know the science or technical aspects of all things digital, but am I wrong in saying that with each mixdown from a higher resolution, things are being eliminated? Something is making that file size smaller. What exactly happens with dither and compression?
Old 8th April 2014
  #2542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
True. But high resolution audio isn't that thing. Or else many of would be using it. And we're not.
Every professional I know is working at 96/24.
I guess you can say they feel forced into it, although I doubt they all could be.
I guess you could question whether they can hear a difference. Maybe they don't. I never thought to ask them.
But I'm just saying that's my experience - 24/96 is the norm with my crowd.
Old 8th April 2014
  #2543
mixmixmix
Guest
Often people work at 24/96 not because they can hear the difference or belive there is one. They do it because they are expected to. "Cutting edge" type of guys. Marketplace dictates a lot of choices for full time professionals.
Old 8th April 2014
  #2544
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Higher sample rates have reported benefits in plugin processing. So even if you can't hear a difference in raw recorded audio you might still hear a better ITB mix.
Old 8th April 2014
  #2545
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Yes.
All I'm saying is that even given the science, I can't hear things someone who has trained their ear can hear.
So if science says 192khz is redundant because no one can hear the difference, that's fine.
But when it comes to blind tests (in the other part of this debate), yes an experienced or trained ear can hear things most of the rest of us can't.
Some of which, the 'rest' will also subconsciously perceive......
Old 8th April 2014
  #2546
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GJ999x's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by strings View Post
I made a post a few days ago saying I "prefer" the sound of cassettes and albums over CDs and then over the next few pages I see people posting things like:
If you think the Pono is going to sound like a cassette or an album, then you are going to be very dissappointed.
I think people misunderstood when you said "cassette gives you the full studio sound, CD does not", they thought you were saying that tape more accurately captured the recording than digital, which is not what you were saying at all (and isnt true).
Old 8th April 2014
  #2547
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
But yes, people who have made a living listening to sounds, and work in studios day after day for years of their life, can hear things the rest of us can't.
**** yeah. My sensitivity to high frequencies is statictically abnormal, but I know an older guy with damaged hearing who can hear ****ing circles around me when it comes to identifying gear in the chain, phase issues, and a myriad of other things. Have some ****ing respect.
Old 8th April 2014
  #2548
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strings's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by GJ999x View Post
I think people misunderstood when you said "cassette gives you the full studio sound, CD does not", they thought you were saying that tape more accurately captured the recording than digital, which is not what you were saying at all (and isnt true).
Well I overshot with the "full studio sound" quote and admitted it a couple of post later. So I agree with you that it probably did add more confusion to the discussion.
Old 8th April 2014
  #2549
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strings's Avatar
With all the debate going on comparing CDs to Albums and what not, I'm wondering if it the CD is even going to be around much longer.
I know people have been saying this for awhile, but it hit home to me last year when I purchased a WD Live media player instead of a new Blue-ray player (for movies).
Actually there were only a handful of DVD and Blue-ray players in the stores and most of the video stores have closed. Our mall had 3 music stores in it 5 or so years ago, now there is only 1.
Old 8th April 2014
  #2550
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by strings View Post
At this point, I don't know how over hyped the product is, because I (or anyone else on here) haven't heard it yet.
Again. This misses the point.

They're selling the player as being amazing because it plays back high resolution files.

So yes. We've already heard that.
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