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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 13th March 2014
  #211
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spurratic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Also didn't watch the video?

Tools.
Watched the video. Don't know what you are getting at.....
If I'm a tool then you're a troll.
Old 13th March 2014
  #212
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Sorry dude. You're wrong. He said CD. Just like almost everyone else in the video.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...iscovers-music

Go to 1:47

And it's not my opinion of a Bass sound vs his. We're supposed to trust him that his Bass sound sucks? Because who has heard his Bass sound on anything better better than a CD?

But I appreciate you taking the time to prove me wrong. It's inspiring.
Never mentions his bass sound in this video. Ever.
Old 13th March 2014
  #213
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Also didn't watch the video?

Tools.

Hahahahaha .
Old 13th March 2014
  #214
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spurratic's Avatar
Kenny Gioia, I'd like to thank you. Until today I never knew there was a block list.

You taught me that there is a way to block people you don't want to hear from any longer.

Ironic that you are that person.

Old 13th March 2014
  #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Also didn't watch the video?

Tools.
Stop PMing me...
Don't worry, I got the Lady GaGa PONO for you...doh
Old 13th March 2014
  #216
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
That's true. mp3s have come a long way.

But he didn't say mp3s. He said CDs.

As did almost everyone in the video. That's why I'm calling B.S.

They're telling us that we've never heard any music in the last 30 years that sounded even remotely accurate?
My bad for not watching the vid and for taking a quote from one of our friends here as gospel. My bad. Not his. (Maybe his -- but that's on his own time, I don't blame him for being wrong, only myself for accepting it without checking it. )
Old 13th March 2014
  #217
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
My bad for not watching the vid and for taking a quote from one of our friends here as gospel. My bad. Not his. (Maybe his -- but that's on his own time, I don't blame him for being wrong, only myself for accepting it without checking it. )
Unfortunately, we won't hear this thing until it ships in October, but we'll see.
What I'm wondering is, will Apple just sit there and not compete?
Is this why they implemented the Mastered for iTunes program?
Change the DAC and tweak the filters in the iPod and/or iPhone or iPad,
and you have Apple's PONO, with Apple selling high Rez downloads right in iTunes?
If they can stream movies to my ipad from the cloud, why can't they stream 24/192 audio from the cloud?
I bet we see it by year's end.
Old 13th March 2014
  #218
I'm wishing Pono every success and hope it sets a new standard for audio quality which becomes a norm; I dislike the loss of definition/quality/"soul" incurred converting music from 24 to 16-bit for publishing to current media formats.
IMO better quality audio is a good thing for listeners and musicians/engineers/producers.
Old 13th March 2014
  #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spurratic View Post
Kenny Gioia, I'd like to thank you. Until today I never knew there was a block list.

You taught me that there is a way to block people you don't want to hear from any longer.

Ironic that you are that person.

I'm hurt that you don't want to continue to change what I said.

Even when you've been proven wrong.

You'll be missed.
Old 13th March 2014
  #220
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spurratic's Avatar
There's a distinct possibility that Pono's end game would be to be bought out by Apple and enact change......to influence a raise in standard and 'progress'.

Thats how many business ventures create their business plan. Create product that highlights a segment that isn't being taken care of in the marketplace....and get the leading company in that marketplace to buy you and start taking care of that segment.

Say what you may about the video and the different stars that comment....but lets face it. In this jaded market someone like Neil Young has to use every asset at his disposal (star power) to get the message out there.

If Pono didn't have Neil Young and co. making videos, we likely wouldn't be discussing it right now.
Old 13th March 2014
  #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
You're crossing the line dude.
And you've been a model of decorum...
Old 13th March 2014
  #222
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
Unfortunately, we won't hear this thing until it ships in October, but we'll see.
What I'm wondering is, will Apple just sit there and not compete?
Is this why they implemented the Mastered for iTunes program?
Change the DAC and tweak the filters in the iPod and/or iPhone or iPad,
and you have Apple's PONO, with Apple selling high Rez downloads right in iTunes?
If they can stream movies to my ipad from the cloud, why can't they stream 24/192 audio from the cloud?
I bet we see it by year's end.
To be perfectly honest, I don't think there are going to be many ripples from this.

Hopefully it raises consumer awareness of fidelity issues -- but, look, they voted with their pocket books long ago: just look at what the overwhelming majority of people listen on: car stereo and/or phone. Then they go home and watch TV. If you look at the playback systems in their homes, it's generally pretty damn depressing.

They could have done something about that at any time if they cared. They could have a nice stereo. Their stereos, by and large, if they even have them, don't really rise to the level of a 128 kbps mp3 in many ways.

But, here's a dirty little secret, back in the golden age of component stereos at the start of the 70s, when it was really cool to have a nice stereo -- most people had them by accident as much as anything and most of them just hit the 'disco button' and cranked up the bass and treble and thought it was hi fi. I'd tinker folks' stereos a little and they'd go, Wow, what did you do? It sounds so much cleaner and clear! God love 'em.

It's like H.L. Mencken so famously said... no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people -- and I'm sure that he would have been all too happy to extend that to our brethren in the global village had he lived to see it...
Old 13th March 2014
  #223
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spurratic View Post
There's a distinct possibility that Pono's end game would be to be bought out by Apple and enact change......to influence a raise in standard and 'progress'.

Thats how many business ventures create their business plan. Create product that highlights a segment that isn't being taken care of in the marketplace....and get the leading company in that marketplace to buy you and start taking care of that segment.

Say what you may about the video and the different stars that comment....but lets face it. In this jaded market someone like Neil Young has to use every asset at his disposal (star power) to get the message out there.

If Pono didn't have Neil Young and co. making videos, we likely wouldn't be discussing it right now.
I feel that it was Neil Young's plan all along.
He spoke to Steve jobs years ago about upping the quality of iTunes music, but couldn't get him to make it a priority.
Jobs was gravely ill, and had other thing on his plate.
A lot of "Mastered For iTunes" files out there...
Should be an interesting year for hi def downloads all around...
Old 13th March 2014
  #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
But I'm with you. I long for the day where kids listen to records again without any video to go with it.
I remember the first time I heard "Girls Just Want To Have Fun," which a very cool girl (who was into Liquid Liquid and Led Zeppelin) at my school was playing. I was unimpressed with the song and couldn't figure out why people were into it. A week or so later I went to a friend's place which had cable(!) and I got a chance to see the video on MTV (maybe even the first time I saw the channel). Suddenly I realized what was going on, but I was helpless to get sucked in too.
Old 13th March 2014
  #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
To be perfectly honest, I don't think there are going to be many ripples from this.

Hopefully it raises consumer awareness of fidelity issues -- but, look, they voted with their pocket books long ago: just look at what the overwhelming majority of people listen on: car stereo and/or phone. Then they go home and watch TV. If you look at the playback systems in their homes, it's generally pretty damn depressing.

They could have done something about that at any time if they cared. They could have a nice stereo. Their stereos, by and large, if they even have them, don't really rise to the level of a 160 kbps mp3 in many ways.

But, here's a dirty little secret, back in the golden age of component stereos at the start of the 70s, when it was really cool to have a nice stereo -- most people had them by accident as much as anything and most of them just hit the 'disco button' and cranked up the bass and treble and thought it was hi fi. I'd tinker folks stereos a little and they'd go, wow, what did you do? It sounds so much cleaner and defined? God love 'em.

It's like H.L. Mencken so famously said... no one ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people -- and I'm sure that he would have been all too happy to extend that to our brethren in the global village had he lived to see it...
True, this is why I think Pono would do best to market themselves not to the average Joe....but just try to focus on the audiophile market. i.e.: the best alternative to sitting at home in front of a hi fi system or your studio monitors is to carry a Pono. It may not work....but I think there are plenty of engineers, musicians, etc that would desire a 'better than iPhone' option for mobile music.

Besides, its half the hardware (pono) and half the lure to get labels to release high sampled versions of music I think....that might be the real win here for people who 'Care'.
Old 13th March 2014
  #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
I feel that it was Neil Young's plan all along.
He spoke to Steve jobs years ago about upping the quality of iTunes music, but couldn't get him to make it a priority.
Jobs was gravely ill, and had other thing on his plate.
A lot of "Mastered For iTunes" files out there...
Should be an interesting year for hi def downloads all around...
yeah, I haven't really follow the Mastered for iTunes storyline....either way, if I am into a band I'd gladly pay more for better quality files.
Old 13th March 2014
  #227
@spurratic - Spot on!
There's too much dumbing down of human experience in favour of corporate ergonomics nowadays. Let's face it mp3's are like junk food and are a hangover from low-bandwidth communication systems. With the new 5G system it's possible to download a movie in seconds so I think Pono is well-timed in that regard.
Old 13th March 2014
  #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
But, here's a dirty little secret, back in the golden age of component stereos at the start of the 70s, when it was really cool to have a nice stereo -- most people had them by accident as much as anything and most of them just hit the 'disco button' and cranked up the bass and treble and thought it was hi fi. I'd tinker folks' stereos a little and they'd go, Wow, what did you do? It sounds so much cleaner and clear! God love 'em.
I do that on my Massive Passive sometimes and dance around the studio....wait...no I don't .... Never mind....
Old 13th March 2014
  #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
But pretending that CD quality sounds like dog sh*t and this thing is miles better is a joke. And the mysterious way it makes you feel that you've never heard anything like this before just pisses me the freak off.
Of course, because it is marketing drivel, pure and simple. But how many professional audio engineers have been fooled by that very same marketing BS? In this thread alone how many people have claimed that 24/192 blows the pants off of Red Book? That 24-bit recordings sound more spacious than 16-bit?

If audio engineers are buying into the "hi res" bull****, what chance does the tin-eared public have? Marketing wins. Again.
Old 13th March 2014
  #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
@spurratic - Spot on!
There's too much dumbing down of human experience in favour of corporate ergonomics nowadays. Let's face it mp3's are like junk food and are a hangover from low-bandwidth communication systems. With the new 5G system it's possible to download a movie in seconds so I think Pono is well-timed in that regard.
Bam. Ok....you get me.
Old 13th March 2014
  #231
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ribbonmicguy View Post
I have.

I heard the difference every single time.

Have you?
What difference did you hear? On a properly dithered 16-bit file, if the difference was anything other than noise, you're hearing things.
Old 13th March 2014
  #232
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I don't know, I used to take my mixes , put them on a CD and go drive in the car and think.....man, that really doesn't sound anywhere near the mix I made.
So naturally you think its your room treatments, or just the bass response in your car stereo....or whatever,

So I'd take that CD and pop it into my iMac and play it through my same setup that my DAW runs through, and think it must be the process of just getting it onto the CD that was dumbing it down so much.

So then you look at the tools you are using, your Dithering from 24 to 16....is that it?

I think thats when you realize you can hear a difference between your recording sample rates and 'red book'.

Then just to be safe I was hanging at my friends' studio, someone who records for major label artists and knows his $hit.....and he agreed with me that he tries to compensate for the losses that come with cd distribution vs. offering the music online direct in hi res format.
Old 13th March 2014
  #233
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Very true. Much like when they took a look at Pro Tools. They could have had that market if they wanted it. It wasn't big enough. And this probably won't be either.

But if it is, they won't have to buy Pono out. They don't need that thing. Just add the functionality to their new product line and add the files to iTunes.

I can't imagine that allowing iPods and iPhones to play this stuff back would be too difficult. They just haven't cared.

But the superior audio on the device (hardware DAC) is the least of their concern.
That's why big companies like to see other people gambling with other people's money. They get to watch what happens, gauge the potential market response, see where the pitfalls are, see if it's got feet to get up on, let alone legs to carry it forward.

Then they can either throw their hat in the ring with an in-house effort (in-house dev seems something many of these tech companies are not eager for any more) or try to handicap a potential market winner to buy.

We'll have to see if this generates any interest.

Unfortunately, the marketing BS involved with this effort feeds into the popular meme that digital is somehow compromised. Also unfortunately, the consumer markets are extremely poorly served by the tech columnists who are themselves often pathetically ignorant but huge sufferers of Dunning-Kruger syndrome.
Old 13th March 2014
  #234
Does anyone not hear a difference in quality (particularly in representation of bass) when converting from 24 to 16-bit?
Old 13th March 2014
  #235
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Just out of curiosity I went to HD Tracks to download the 24 bit 88 kHz files they offer of the Michael Jackson album Thriller.

Here's a screen shot from Wavelab 8 of the song Billie Jean.



Old 13th March 2014
  #236
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Apple wouldn't buy Pono to get the device.....thats exactly the point. They would simply add the functionality to their own products (higher end converter perhaps and offer higher res in iTunes).....but they would buy out Pono to get the users who have identified themselves and will continue buying the hi res files. And to assimilate them rather than copy their strategy and have the annoyance of an intellectual property lawsuit. (which they would win....but hey, why not take the high road).

Happens all the time. Like some of us have said.....Neil Young likely is doing this whole shebang just to get Apple to force some progress. Because Apple basically dictates digital music to the world.

The tin ear'd consumers will just shrug and say "that sounds cool".
Old 13th March 2014
  #237
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I've always stuck with 44.1khz. Is there really that much of an audible difference between 44.1 and 192? I thought 44.1 goes back to 22khz which is at the tippy top of the human hearing range.

I didn't read the entire thread, sorry...
Old 13th March 2014
  #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HSLand View Post
I've always stuck with 44.1khz. Is there really that much of an audible difference between 44.1 and 192? I thought 44.1 goes back to 22khz which is at the tippy top of the human hearing range.

I didn't read the entire thread, sorry...
Theres always been debate about what makes the bigger difference.....24bit to 16 bit, or 192khz to 44.1khz
Old 13th March 2014
  #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HSLand View Post
I've always stuck with 44.1khz. Is there really that much of an audible difference between 44.1 and 192? I thought 44.1 goes back to 22khz which is at the tippy top of the human hearing range.

I didn't read the entire thread, sorry...
John Siau who designs Benchmark converters says that with his converters at least that optimally 24/96 is the best place to be.
Old 13th March 2014
  #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
He means a true double blind comparison at listening level, I suspect.

The last being crucial.

If you focus on, say, the very last of a reverb tail and fade recorded optimally with 24 bit depth with the same section of a 16 bit version of the track -- and you jack the playback volume -- then, of course, it's fairly straightforward to differentiate.

Of course, if you forget to turn it down before starting the track again, you'll likely pin yourself to the wall.

Is there a real difference in such files? Yes.

With properly mastered release material is such a difference noticeable? Not in normal listening circumstances.
I still say yes to this.

And your point is?
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