The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 4th April 2014
  #2251
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkorten View Post

What we really need here is a standardized test we can all take which will reveal the extent of our high frequency hearing ability, then exclude from the discussion those people who can't hear up into the low teens (at least).
That's a great idea.

Let's exclude all the professional engineers from the discussion.

What the hell would they know about making records? heh

Oh. And when we figure out that you can't hear about 20kHz, what should we do with you?
Old 4th April 2014
  #2252
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Oh. And when we figure out that you can't hear about 20kHz, what should we do with you?
Not that I agree with the point, but if they believe somehow we are sensing frequencies above 20k, then one's inability to hear has nothing to do with this argument. This mythical perception happens some other way than through the ears, I guess...
Old 4th April 2014
  #2253
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Not that I agree with the point, but if they believe somehow we are sensing frequencies above 20k, then one's inability to hear has nothing to do with this argument. This mythical perception happens some other way than through the ears, I guess...
The proposal that we are "sensing" these frequencies by some agency other than hearing is moot. It does not matter - because either one would show up as a positive result on the same test... if the perception was real. The tests that show no hearing above 20k do not discriminate against "non-ear" perception. Any perception of these frequencies would cause the person to "like the music better" or register a brain reaction, or press the correct button or whatever.

the believers are saying that these frequencies are sensed SO STRONGLY that they actually make music "sound better" to them when they are present. Yet they can't seem to 'like' the "correct" music when someone removes the ultrasonic frequencies! The same incredibly influential perception suddenly plays "peekaboo" every time a scientist is in the room.

The test is the same, regardless of the proposed mechanism. Can you "tell" or not? This is the major fault in the internal logic of the "something other than our ears" line of argument. Even if the subjects were using ESP to read the experimenter's minds about when the ultrasound was playing or not playing, it should still show up as a positive result on the test. Yet for some strange reason, it never does.
Old 4th April 2014
  #2254
j_j
Lives for gear
You know, it does occur to me that via less-than-idea equipment, it may be possible for strong ultrasonics (i.e. over 20kHz) to create audible effects via IMD.

I have seen this happen in devices myself, but what you're hearing is not actually ultrasonics, you're simply hearing distortion that's in-band. Dome tweeters, etc, can be particularly vexing in this regard.

SO... if you do get a positive ABX, you need to capture the outputs (just in-band will do) and see if you have some in-band effects due to nonlinearities.

This problem has vexed several tests so far, but to my knowledge they weren't reported due to the "oops" factor becoming evident.
Old 4th April 2014
  #2255
Lives for gear
 
GJ999x's Avatar
Heated debate is often a great thing but can I just check, has this come down to whether frequencies above 20k make a significant difference to our enjoyment of music over time? Interesting...
Old 4th April 2014
  #2256
Gear Head
 
bandpass's Avatar
 

If it stands any debate at all, then it's clearly not a significant difference. The more heated the debate, the less significant the difference!
Old 4th April 2014
  #2257
Lives for gear
 
strings's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
1. make better-sounding records
2. stop squashing them in the mastering

From my experience with hi-resolution digital, Pono is going to sound a lot more like a CD than it will ever sound like a cassette! I predict you are going to hate it.

If you like the sound of cassettes just copy your CDs on to cassette and there you are. What percentage of your cassettes were dubbed from a digital master anyway? As for your records, the vast majority of your vinyl collection has already passed through a 44/16 digital delay on its way to the cutter head. Almost all your vinyl is "digital" already! Whatever qualities you prefer from vinyl they are probably noise and distortions and nonlinearities from the analog process, clearly not an increase in 'analog purity' - much less an 'absence of digital'
You could very well be right about the Pono and I agree with you about digital being better if they stopped the loudness wars.

I hope everyone is having fun calling down cassettes, but on a cassette, you're getting the full studio sound, on a CD you are not.
Spout all the technically details you want, but to my ears cassettes and albums sound better than CDs.
End of story.
Old 4th April 2014
  #2258
Gear Maniac
 

A digital copy (any common bit depth/sample rate) of the original master tape will sound identical to the original master tape. Or within 99.99% for those with magic ears.

Digital is higher rez than tape. Even 2" @ 30 ips studio grade tape. That's why digital superceded tape. Better freq response, lower noise, less distortion, smaller timing errors. More accurate.

A cassette or vinyl cut will not sound as accurate. They are both lower rez formats.

Fair enough I can understand you might like the hiss from tape and crackles from vinyl. But technically better? No way.
Old 4th April 2014
  #2259
Quote:
Originally Posted by strings View Post
....
End of story.
No!!! Don't let the story end!!!
Old 4th April 2014
  #2260
Lives for gear
 
strings's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonaldDumsfeld View Post
...A cassette or vinyl cut will not sound as accurate. They are both lower rez formats...
If you read my post you will see I'm talking about CDs.
CDs are 16 bit, therefore lower resolution and MP3s even more so.

I'm not going to agrue till the cows come home, I'm just stating my opinion which is: to "my" ears, cassettes and albums sound better than CDs.
Old 4th April 2014
  #2261
Lives for gear
 
strings's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
No!!! Don't let the story end!!!
Old 4th April 2014
  #2262
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
on a cassette, you're getting the full studio sound, on a CD you are not.
A cassette tape is the equivalent of 8 bit.

Last edited by RonaldDumsfeld; 4th April 2014 at 02:21 PM.. Reason: added
Old 4th April 2014
  #2263
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by strings View Post
I hope everyone is having fun calling down cassettes, but on a cassette, you're getting the full studio sound, on a CD you are not.
Spout all the technically details you want, but to my ears cassettes and albums sound better than CDs.
End of story.
Sorry, this is just magical thinking. You can say you like cassettes better (like most people who do, you probably like the distortion and color) but it's incorrect to say something is not there with a cd.

With a CD you are getting all the "studio sound" that you can hear. With a cassette you are getting LESS of that studio sound, and it's more distorted, missing lots of top and bottom, and is much less accurate.

Like what you like and nobody will care. Like what you like and apply magical thinking to justify it and you are just plain wrong.
Old 4th April 2014
  #2264
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by strings View Post
You could very well be right about the Pono and I agree with you about digital being better if they stopped the loudness wars.

I hope everyone is having fun calling down cassettes, but on a cassette, you're getting the full studio sound, on a CD you are not.
Spout all the technically details you want, but to my ears cassettes and albums sound better than CDs.
End of story.
I grew up listening to cassettes (80's and early 90's.) First time I heard a CD it was like a veil had been lifted from the recording. You are certainly not getting "the full studio sound" on a cassette. There were times during my early studio career when I was still delivering stuff on cassette from expensive tape recorders... it was not "full studio sound."
Old 4th April 2014
  #2265
Lives for gear
 
strings's Avatar
"...Like what you like and nobody will care. Like what you like and apply magical thinking to justify it and you are just plain wrong."

Of course nobody will care, I don't expect anybody to.
Bottom line, I prefer the sound of Cassettes and Albums over CDs and MP3s.
Old 4th April 2014
  #2266
Lives for gear
 
GJ999x's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by strings View Post
I'm just stating my opinion which is: to "my" ears, cassettes and albums sound better than CDs.
50 years later:

hologrammed old men arguing about whether you're getting the authentic Skrillex expierience if you're not listening to 192kps on ipod earbuds that you bought on ebay (the black ones not the coloured range, they were a bad run). "The 50GB 3D live version just ruins the vibes! to my ears! Which are objectively right! Back then they appreciated decent music, not like now with the kids and the popstars! **** the lot of you!"

Trust me, this is basically accurate
Old 4th April 2014
  #2267
Lives for gear
 
strings's Avatar
"I grew up listening to cassettes (80's and early 90's.) First time I heard a CD it was like a veil had been lifted from the recording. You are certainly not getting "the full studio sound" on a cassette. There were times during my early studio career when I was still delivering stuff on cassette from expensive tape recorders... it was not "full studio sound."

Ok, perhaps a cassette doesn't have the "full" studio sound, but neither does a CD. You like CDs, I prefer Cassettes and Albums. I don't think (or expect) anyone to change their mind on that. It's my own experience from listening to music since I was a kid, and the same can be said about everyone else on here.
Old 4th April 2014
  #2268
Lives for gear
 
GJ999x's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by strings View Post
You like CDs, I prefer Cassettes and Albums. I don't think (or expect) anyone to change their mind on that. It's my own experience from listening to music since I was a kid, and the same can be said about everyone else on here.
For sure, a personal preference for cassette sound is completely legitmate and it doesnt even make sense for anyone to argue that it's not, not that that would stop the debate around here....

("capturing the full sound" etc is a bit closer to saying you think tape is more accurate though, that's all)

Old 4th April 2014
  #2269
Lives for gear
 
strings's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by GJ999x View Post
For sure, a personal preference for cassette sound is completely legitmate and it doesnt even make sense for anyone to argue that it's not, not that that would stop the debate around here....

("capturing the full sound" etc is a bit closer to saying you think tape is more accurate though, that's all)

Sounds about right to me, I agree with you.
Old 4th April 2014
  #2270
In my hippie days traveling around, I listened to Eddie Brikell, Shooting Rubber Bands album many, many times on cassette in the van. When I finally got a CD player and cassette tape adapter I bought that CD and hated it. I could hear everything and it was not the listening experience I was used to. So I understand why someone would like cassettes, they have a sound and the lofi-ness of them is pleasing in a way, but it is most definitely not a better reproduction of what was actually recorded.
Old 4th April 2014
  #2271
Lives for gear
 
GJ999x's Avatar
I hope the Pono team isnt reading this - unless of course you're saying that you prefer both better and worse quality than 320kps mp3s and CDs, but the middle point there is unnacceptable

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonwagner View Post
In my hippie days traveling around, I listened to Eddie Brikell, Shooting Rubber Bands album many, many times on cassette in the van. When I finally got a CD player and cassette tape adapter I bought that CD and hated it. I could hear everything and it was not the listening experience I was used to. So I understand why someone would like cassettes, they have a sound and the lofi-ness of them is pleasing in a way, but it is most definitely not a better reproduction of what was actually recorded.
Old 4th April 2014
  #2272
Quote:
Originally Posted by GJ999x View Post
I hope the Pono team isnt reading this - unless of course you're saying that you prefer both better and worse quality than 320kps mp3s and CDs, but the middle point there is unnacceptable
I don't want to go back to cassettes but it was interesting that my brain had grown so accustom to the sound of cassette that I did not like the pristine sound of CD.

Don't our brains adapt and fill in blanks depending on what we are hearing/seeing. Maybe resolution missing from the cassette was being filled in by my brain and I found that more entertaining than what is actually there. Kinda like talking with someone on the phone forever and finally meeting them in person only to find out they look NOTHING AT ALL like what you thought they did. But after a little while that old brain image goes away and it's all good.
Old 4th April 2014
  #2273
Lives for gear
 
GJ999x's Avatar
Sounds true to me.... it's all relative.... can you imagine being the first to get a gramophone in your neighbourhood.... witchcraft and endlessly entertaining... I guess the benchmark for rapid global domination is "significantly better than what went before it," probably everything athat meets that criteria in the world of entertainment was just as thrilliing at the time...

Try playing an 80s computer game for more than 5 minutes is another example.... those things were loved back then just like GTA V.... Gaming mags that game with a game in the form of programming that you had to type in, >30,000 characterrs, get one wrong and none of it works.... compared to snakes and ladders though, pretty cool!

How old am I? Er.... 22
Old 4th April 2014
  #2274
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RonaldDumsfeld View Post
A digital copy (any common bit depth/sample rate) of the original master tape will sound identical to the original master tape. Or within 99.99% for those with magic ears.

Digital is higher rez than tape. Even 2" @ 30 ips studio grade tape. That's why digital superceded tape. Better freq response, lower noise, less distortion, smaller timing errors. More accurate.

A cassette or vinyl cut will not sound as accurate. They are both lower rez formats.

Fair enough I can understand you might like the hiss from tape and crackles from vinyl. But technically better? No way.
I hope nobody is paying attention to this - he's making it all up.
Old 4th April 2014
  #2275
Lives for gear
 
GJ999x's Avatar
Well - it looks like we're all agreed. /end thread
Old 4th April 2014
  #2276
Quote:
Originally Posted by GJ999x View Post
Sounds true to me.... it's all relative.... can you imagine being the first to get a gramophone in your neighbourhood.... witchcraft and endlessly entertaining... I guess the benchmark for rapid global domination is "significantly better than what went before it," probably everything athat meets that criteria in the world of entertainment was just as thrilliing at the time...

Try playing an 80s computer game for more than 5 minutes is another example.... those things were loved back then just like GTA V.... Gaming mags that game with a game in the form of programming that you had to type in, >30,000 characterrs, get one wrong and none of it works.... compared to snakes and ladders though, pretty cool!

How old am I? Er.... 22
What is this devil machine speaking to me!?!

Castle Wolfenstein on a TRS-80! Frogger on something I forgot now but it was like a 10 minute load time from a cassette tape. It was BADASS at the time for sure!
Old 4th April 2014
  #2277
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by strings View Post
I hope everyone is having fun calling down cassettes, but on a cassette, you're getting the full studio sound
How old are you and what is your studio experience?

Because mine was right in the heat of cassettes as the only reference available to what was happening in the studio.

And I never met anyone happy with what the client had to refer to when they were deciphering the mixes.

It sucked. We tried everything. Metal, Rust Oxide, Dolby A, B, C. It was exhausting trying to make cassettes sound like they were on the same planet as what we were hearing in the studio.

While DAT and later CDs were not quite "perfect" to what we were hearing, we were in heaven compared to anything that came before them.
Old 4th April 2014
  #2278
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by strings View Post
I'm not going to agrue till the cows come home, I'm just stating my opinion which is: to "my" ears, cassettes and albums sound better than CDs.
But not more accurate to what was recorded to them.
Old 4th April 2014
  #2279
Lives for gear
 
GJ999x's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonwagner View Post
Castle Wolfenstein on a TRS-80! Frogger on something I forgot now but it was like a 10 minute load time from a cassette tape. It was BADASS at the time for sure!
Old 4th April 2014
  #2280
Lives for gear
 
paul brown's Avatar
making mix tapes was fun though, but that might be nostalgic bias!
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump