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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 13th March 2014
  #181
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
It's not the product that annoys people, I don't think, for the most part.

It's the marketing nonsense.

There is a big difference. Some folks have a very low tolerance for obvious bull****.

I've been watching audio technology for a half century now and I have to say I hate marketing BS as much now as I did in the early 60s. There was a lot then. There's a lot now. These people pray on the ignorance and gullibility of people who just want to believe and who don't have the technological grasp to understand that someone is fast-talking them.
Exactly. If this thing was presented as a high quality playback device that uses better convertors and components and can play higher quality files, I wouldn't care. Good luck to them.

But pretending that CD quality sounds like dog sh*t and this thing is miles better is a joke. And the mysterious way it makes you feel that you've never heard anything like this before just pisses me the freak off.

You know what gets me excited?

Years ago I read an article about either Rupert Neve or Les Paul (I forget which one) where they talk about listening to live performances from the best mic preamps right to the speakers. The shortest signal ever made and super high quality. But it can't be captured because that would be the bottleneck. So you have to hear it in the studio live. That stuff inspires me because I know I've never heard anything like it before. It's not possible.

But this is the kind of thing promised here. And it won't deliver.
Old 13th March 2014
  #182
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Ribbonmicguy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bogosort View Post
I recommend you ABX a 24-bit clip and a 16-bit clip; the only difference between the two will be the noise floor (which you can't hear in most music). Claiming otherwise is snakeoil.
I have.

I heard the difference every single time.

Have you?
Old 13th March 2014
  #183
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Ribbonmicguy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
The 24 bit mixed file sounds better than the 16 bit one?

I'm not talking about tracking and mixing. Just the final output.
24/44.1 compared to 16/44.1.

Compared them and liked the 24bit better. Every single time.
Old 13th March 2014
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post

Same DAC chip as the Mytek DSD DAC.
Doesn't sound like your average MP3 player...
It probably doesn't. But a Mytek DAC isn't changing Flea's Bass sound from a twangy rubber band back to a Bass guitar either.

I don't doubt that this will be a great sounding unit. It just won't exceed what most of us sit in front of everyday.
Old 13th March 2014
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Traintrack View Post
Some people are embarrassing themselves big time, same tripe over and over and over..... WE GET IT you think it SUCKS

Obviously your format of choice is a Broken Record
Do you have something to add to the discussion?

Would you prefer I change my opinion in each post?
Old 13th March 2014
  #186
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
It probably doesn't. But a Mytek DAC isn't changing Flea's Bass sound from a twangy rubber band back to a Bass guitar either.

I don't doubt that this will be a great sounding unit. It just won't exceed what most of us sit in front of everyday.
I wouldn't expect a $400 unit to do that.
Old 13th March 2014
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ribbonmicguy View Post
24/44.1 compared to 16/44.1.

Compared them and liked the 24bit better. Every single time.
I'm not going to claim technical knowledge enough to tell you that your wrong or that you're hearing things.

If you hear it. I believe you.
Old 13th March 2014
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
I wouldn't expect a $400 unit to do that.
Neither would I.

Unless I watched the video. heh heh heh
Old 13th March 2014
  #189
Gear Maniac
 
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My Grandfather did the same thing. He could not stop, like no one heard him the first time. Just keep going. He could not hear the difference between 1411 kbps and 9216 kbps either.... I doubt he made it public on an audio forum though, loved that man.
Old 13th March 2014
  #190
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Neither would I.

Unless I watched the video. heh heh heh

You're absolutely right.
Every one of the musicians in that video (including Neil Young)
are mental defectives who wouldn't know quality audio if it sat on their face.
When have these people ever spent countless hours in the studio making high quality work?
In fact, they were all lying to everyone's face about their opinion, for no particular reason, and are staking their reputations backing this product for ****s and giggles.
Every one of them.

You, having never heard the device, are absolutely correct, and they, who have heard the device, are fools.
Yep.
Old 13th March 2014
  #191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ribbonmicguy View Post
I have.

I heard the difference every single time.

Have you?
He means a true double blind comparison at listening level, I suspect.

The last being crucial.

If you focus on, say, the very last of a reverb tail and fade recorded optimally with 24 bit depth with the same section of a 16 bit version of the track -- and you jack the playback volume -- then, of course, it's fairly straightforward to differentiate.

Of course, if you forget to turn it down before starting the track again, you'll likely pin yourself to the wall.

Is there a real difference in such files? Yes.

With properly mastered release material is such a difference noticeable? Not in normal listening circumstances.
Old 13th March 2014
  #192
Here for the gear
 

Not sure if this has been touched within the several pages but...

You can argue bit rate vs. quality all year long, but the audible difference comes from how the music was originally recorded. You will not hear a difference in "new" music competing in the "loudness war." Your programmed samples are set at high bit rates and the live instruments are usually set at high output gains then compressed down. It's mostly all done in MIDI these days.

These artists raving about Pono record traditionally with instruments, microphones, and the use of ambient sound. All of these play a huge role in the difference between vinyl and CD sound. A lot of the little things get lost once you go digital, room noises, fingers pressing the fingerboard, snare vibration. These guys are trying to bring all of that back...hearing the engineer coughing in the control room during that blistering solo. It's about bringing the listener into the studio with you.

Now, whether you want this or even care about it in your personal music player is up to you, but personally, I hope it starts the downward trend of the "loudness war" and makes artists care more about recording live instruments rather than relying on computers to fix mistakes.
I could go on and on about how I think all of this music mess is caused by it being too readily available. There was much more appreciation for music when we had to wait to get home to start the turn table.
Old 13th March 2014
  #193
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Traintrack View Post
Some people are embarrassing themselves big time, same tripe over and over and over..... WE GET IT you think it SUCKS

Obviously your format of choice is a Broken Record
LOL.. we get it, you think it's great! Now we have an impasse I guess?
Old 13th March 2014
  #194
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ribbonmicguy View Post
24/44.1 compared to 16/44.1.

Compared them and liked the 24bit better. Every single time.
Pretty awesome. I am not doubting it, but I've never seen anyone do it before.
Old 13th March 2014
  #195
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
You're absolutely right.
Every one of the musicians in that video (including Neil Young)
are mental defectives who wouldn't know quality audio if it sat on their face.
When have these people ever spent countless hours in the studio making high quality work?
In fact, they were all lying to everyone's face about their opinion, for no particular reason, and are staking their reputations backing this product for ****s and giggles.
Every one of them.

You, having never heard the device, are absolutely correct, and they, who have heard the device, are fools.
Yep.
Does this make you feel better?

Putting words in my mouth?

Do you want a discussion or are you looking for a chance to feel superior?

I have a huge problem with the facepalm emoticon and you've just passed my quota.

Welcome to my ignore list.

Enjoy your evening.
Old 13th March 2014
  #196
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Traintrack View Post
My Grandfather did the same thing. He could not stop, like no one heard him the first time. Just keep going. He could not hear the difference between 1411 kbps and 9216 kbps either.... I doubt he made it public on an audio forum though, loved that man.
Ouch. That hurts. I must be old. You got me.
Old 13th March 2014
  #197
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirChristov View Post
Not sure if this has been touched within the several pages but...

You can argue bit rate vs. quality all year long, but the audible difference comes from how the music was originally recorded. You will not hear a difference in "new" music competing in the "loudness war." Your programmed samples are set at high bit rates and the live instruments are usually set at high output gains then compressed down. It's mostly all done in MIDI these days.

These artists raving about Pono record traditionally with instruments, microphones, and the use of ambient sound. All of these play a huge role in the difference between vinyl and CD sound. A lot of the little things get lost once you go digital, room noises, fingers pressing the fingerboard, snare vibration. These guys are trying to bring all of that back...hearing the engineer coughing in the control room during that blistering solo. It's about bringing the listener into the studio with you.

Now, whether you want this or even care about it in your personal music player is up to you, but personally, I hope it starts the downward trend of the "loudness war" and makes artists care more about recording live instruments rather than relying on computers to fix mistakes.
I could go on and on about how I think all of this music mess is caused by it being too readily available. There was much more appreciation for music when we had to wait to get home to start the turn table.
What he said....
Old 13th March 2014
  #198
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Does this make you feel better?

Putting words in my mouth?

Do you want a discussion or are you looking for a chance to feel superior?

I have a huge problem with the facepalm emoticon and you've just passed my quota.

Welcome to my ignore list.

Enjoy your evening.
Thanx!
Oh, wait, you won't see this...
Old 13th March 2014
  #199
For years, my iPod has had nothing in it but lossless files, and I enjoyed listening with top of the line Shure earphones. Then I started using Focal Spirit Professionals. Staggeringly awesome improvement.

I strongly suspect that it is the devices on/in our ears that make the most noticeable difference in quality.
Old 13th March 2014
  #200
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirChristov View Post
Not sure if this has been touched within the six pages but...

You can argue bit rate vs. quality all year long, but the audible difference comes from how the music was originally recorded. You will not hear a difference in "new" music competing in the "loudness war." Your programmed samples are set at high bit rates and the live instruments are usually set at high output gains then compressed down. It's mostly all done in MIDI these days.

These artists raving about Pono record traditionally with instruments, microphones, and the use of ambient sound. All of these play a huge role in the difference between vinyl and CD sound. A lot of the little things get lost once you go digital, room noises, fingers pressing the fingerboard, snare vibration. These guys are trying to bring all of that back...hearing the engineer coughing in the control room during that blistering solo. It's about bringing the listener into the studio with you.

Now, whether you want this or even care about it in your personal music player is up to you, but personally, I hope it starts the downward trend of the "loudness war" and makes artists care more about recording live instruments rather than relying on computers to fix mistakes.
I could go on and on about how I think all of this music mess is caused by it being too readily available. There was much more appreciation for music when we had to wait to get home to start the turn table.
[bold added]

Whoa! I don't think so.

OK. I'm willing to say I know it's outright hooey if you are seriously suggesting that digital does not greatly surpass analog recording in terms of potential signal accuracy.

Seriously.

Now, you know, you can say what you want about what you think you hear -- but I know what I think I hear and I put a lot more faith in it.

And I'm not just a lifelong audio enthusiast, onetime studio engineer (in analog tape studios), I'm a lifelong orchestral/classical music fan. Throw in plenty of acoustic jazz on the side. Those are two of the most sonically demanding music forms, I should say.

So, on top of the my ears versus your ears thing, then we have those pesky numbers from objective test measurement backing my impression up.

If my ears tell me it's true and the test gear tells me it's true -- why should I take it from you that the greater accuracy I perceive in digital is somehow a lie?


(What analog tape does offer is the ability to use tape's gradual saturation characteristics as a potentially euphonious form of signal compression. That's a big plus to a lot of folks, and well understood. But it's a very different proposition than fidelity.)
Old 13th March 2014
  #201
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by SirChristov View Post
Not sure if this has been touched within the several pages but...

You can argue bit rate vs. quality all year long, but the audible difference comes from how the music was originally recorded. You will not hear a difference in "new" music competing in the "loudness war." Your programmed samples are set at high bit rates and the live instruments are usually set at high output gains then compressed down. It's mostly all done in MIDI these days.

These artists raving about Pono record traditionally with instruments, microphones, and the use of ambient sound. All of these play a huge role in the difference between vinyl and CD sound. A lot of the little things get lost once you go digital, room noises, fingers pressing the fingerboard, snare vibration. These guys are trying to bring all of that back...hearing the engineer coughing in the control room during that blistering solo. It's about bringing the listener into the studio with you.

Now, whether you want this or even care about it in your personal music player is up to you, but personally, I hope it starts the downward trend of the "loudness war" and makes artists care more about recording live instruments rather than relying on computers to fix mistakes.
I could go on and on about how I think all of this music mess is caused by it being too readily available. There was much more appreciation for music when we had to wait to get home to start the turn table.
Yes. But unfortunately I don't see the direction you guys do. Records are loud to compete for radio play. This device doesn't change that.

Analog has that sound because it's analog. This device doesn't change that either.

Much like Jimmy Buffet, they're trying to sell a feeling. This is just a high end music player which will be tough to catch on because everyone already has one in their phone. Convenience tends to win out.

But I'm with you. I long for the day where kids listen to records again without any video to go with it.
Old 13th March 2014
  #202
Gear Addict
 
spurratic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
You're absolutely right.
Every one of the musicians in that video (including Neil Young)
are mental defectives who wouldn't know quality audio if it sat on their face.
When have these people ever spent countless hours in the studio making high quality work?
In fact, they were all lying to everyone's face about their opinion, for no particular reason, and are staking their reputations backing this product for ****s and giggles.
Every one of them.

You, having never heard the device, are absolutely correct, and they, who have heard the device, are fools.
Yep.
Love it....lol. I love the comment earlier that the Pono can't change Flea's bass back from a Rubber band to a Bass. Thats not what he said. He said the Mp3 makes his Bass sound like a rubber band.

I would take Flea's opinion on a great bass sound over most gearslutz opinions every time. No offence. (cause I'm a gearslut)
Old 13th March 2014
  #203
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post

If my ears tell me it's true and the test gear tells me it's true -- why should I take it from you that the greater accuracy I perceive in digital is somehow a lie?
It does appear to be more accurate. Although, both are miles away. I do prefer digital in that what you get thru the pre is what gets recorded. Tape always changes it. But many times that's a good thing.

What I've never figured out is if our love for tape is based on our getting used to it or just liking the artifacts it creates. I know when I had my Sony MCI machine, it made many of the tracks sound better than what went in there. Could be compression. Distortion. Who knows.

But I don't like being sold the idea that high end digital is more analog. It's just better digital. And at this point, I'm not even sure what that means. I think we've hit the digital wall. The next step is to start improving other things in the chain.
Old 13th March 2014
  #204
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
[bold added]

Whoa! I don't think so.

OK. I'm willing to say I know it's outright hooey if you are seriously suggesting that digital does not greatly surpass analog recording in terms of potential signal accuracy.

Seriously.

I'm not just a lifelong audio enthusiast, onetime studio engineer (in analog tape studios), I'm a lifelong orchestral/classical music fan. Throw in plenty of acoustic jazz on the side. Those are two of the most sonically demanding music forms, I should say.


Now, you know, you can say what you want about what you think you hear -- but I know what I think I hear and I put a lot more faith in it.

And then I have those pesky numbers from objective measurement backing my impression up.

If my ears tell me it's true and the test gear tells me it's true -- why should I take it from you that the greater accuracy I perceive in digital is somehow a lie?


(What analog tape does offer is the ability to use tape's gradual saturation characteristics as a potentially euphonious form of signal compression.)
If you seek at live, room sound in your recording, you will achieve it in analog or digital. My point is that most music today is either touched up to clean any nuances or isolates each track to eliminate any possibility of outside noise (usually bypassed by using MIDI).
Old 13th March 2014
  #205
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by spurratic View Post
Love it....lol. I love the comment earlier that the Pono can't change Flea's bass back from a Rubber band to a Bass. Thats not what he said. He said the Mp3 makes his Bass sound like a rubber band.

I would take Flea's opinion on a great bass sound over most gearslutz opinions every time. No offence. (cause I'm a gearslut)
I'm with ya!
Old 13th March 2014
  #206
Quote:
Originally Posted by spurratic View Post
Love it....lol. I love the comment earlier that the Pono can't change Flea's bass back from a Rubber band to a Bass. Thats not what he said. He said the Mp3 makes his Bass sound like a rubber band.

I would take Flea's opinion on a great bass sound over most gearslutz opinions every time. No offence. (cause I'm a gearslut)
I think most any of us will stipulate that, for sure, if one uses a low bitrate or inappropriate codec settings (it's stunning to me how few people seem to have ever even seen the command line switches for LAME), one can do some serious sonic damage to an audio signal. Is anyone arguing otherwise? Didn't think so.

The problem is when someone like Flea or Neil talk about mp3s as though they were all 32 kbps streams from 1998.

Now, I'm all for ditching lossy encoding right now. Let's do it! I'm a 1000% for it.

But that won't make some of the silly things some of these celebrity endorsers say any more true.
Old 13th March 2014
  #207
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by spurratic View Post
Love it....lol. I love the comment earlier that the Pono can't change Flea's bass back from a Rubber band to a Bass. Thats not what he said. He said the Mp3 makes his Bass sound like a rubber band.

I would take Flea's opinion on a great bass sound over most gearslutz opinions every time. No offence. (cause I'm a gearslut)
Sorry dude. You're wrong. He said CD. Just like almost everyone else in the video.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...iscovers-music

Go to 1:47

And it's not my opinion of a Bass sound vs his. We're supposed to trust him that his Bass sound sucks? Because who has heard his Bass sound on anything better better than a CD?

But I appreciate you taking the time to prove me wrong. It's inspiring.
Old 13th March 2014
  #208
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
I'm with ya!
Also didn't watch the video?

Tools.
Old 13th March 2014
  #209
Quote:
Originally Posted by spurratic View Post
Love it....lol. I love the comment earlier that the Pono can't change Flea's bass back from a Rubber band to a Bass. Thats not what he said. He said the Mp3 makes his Bass sound like a rubber band.

I would take Flea's opinion on a great bass sound over most gearslutz opinions every time. No offence. (cause I'm a gearslut)
I hear lovely bass tones without Pono. This Flea character must have insectoid hearing, or crap gear.
Old 13th March 2014
  #210
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirChristov View Post
Not sure if this has been touched within the six pages but...

You can argue bit rate vs. quality all year long, but the audible difference comes from how the music was originally recorded. You will not hear a difference in "new" music competing in the "loudness war." Your programmed samples are set at high bit rates and the live instruments are usually set at high output gains then compressed down. It's mostly all done in MIDI these days.

These artists raving about Pono record traditionally with instruments, microphones, and the use of ambient sound. All of these play a huge role in the difference between vinyl and CD sound. A lot of the little things get lost once you go digital, room noises, fingers pressing the fingerboard, snare vibration. These guys are trying to bring all of that back...hearing the engineer coughing in the control room during that blistering solo. It's about bringing the listener into the studio with you.

Now, whether you want this or even care about it in your personal music player is up to you, but personally, I hope it starts the downward trend of the "loudness war" and makes artists care more about recording live instruments rather than relying on computers to fix mistakes.
I could go on and on about how I think all of this music mess is caused by it being too readily available. There was much more appreciation for music when we had to wait to get home to start the turn table.
[bold added]

Whoa! I don't think so.

OK. I'm willing to say I know it's outright hooey if you are seriously suggesting that digital does not greatly surpass analog recording in terms of potential signal accuracy.

Seriously.

Now, you know, you can say what you want about what you think you hear -- but I know what I think I hear and I put a lot more faith in it.

And I'm not just a lifelong audio enthusiast, onetime studio engineer (in analog tape studios), I'm a lifelong orchestral/classical music fan. Throw in plenty of acoustic jazz on the side. Those are two of the most sonically demanding music forms, I should say.

So, on top of the my ears versus your ears thing, then we have those pesky numbers from objective test measurement backing my impression up.

If my ears tell me it's true and the test gear tells me it's true -- why should I take it from you that the greater accuracy I perceive in digital is somehow a lie?


(What analog tape does offer is the ability to use tape's gradual saturation characteristics as a potentially euphonious form of signal compression. That's a big plus to a lot of folks, and well understood. But it's a very different proposition than fidelity.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirChristov View Post
If you seek at live, room sound in your recording, you will achieve it in analog or digital. My point is that most music today is either touched up to clean any nuances or isolates each track to eliminate any possibility of outside noise (usually bypassed by using MIDI).
I'm afraid I don't see what you're getting at. Are you now saying that those little details are not lost as soon as you go digital?

Hmmm... hold on -- maybe you're lamenting that people give in to the temptation to overly manicure and 'clean up' -- too often taking a lot of the life out of recordings -- and I'd certainly agree that that is something folks do, something I've unfortunately found myself doing on occasion -- but it is not the fault of the medium or the process but rather, I should say, the human frailty of the engineer and/or artist who gets sucked onto the slippery slope of 'just cleaning it up a little'...
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