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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 26th March 2014
  #1861
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
Speaking strictly in general terms, you would typically lay out a marketing campaign in stages; you build a foundation, introducing product names and explaining 'new' concepts and demonstrating the 'need' for the new product/service, you send out carefully constructed campaign materials, swag, and, of course, other considerations to the media you hope to persuade to glow about or at least mention your product. Every mention, even many that are overtly negative negative, can be seen as a plus, in early stages of a campaign when the marketing framework you're trying to build in people's minds is still relatively unformed. This is why company's fight to 'own' a product class or niche.

Even though the notion of marketing ladders and 'repositioning' competitors by strategic market subversion go back to the 1960s and 70s, it's clear the practices have become central to contemporary tech product marketing.

Redefining your competitors to your advantage is one of the central concepts of such marketing tactics. And one of the central approaches is redefining your competitors as belonging to an outmoded paradigm.
Don't forget validation too, investors don't want risk, the fact that people become active in pre-purchasing on these kickstarter type venues gives them further assurance that the product will find uptake in the market. The company will require further capitalization after the product is made and the success of the kickstarter campaign (or popularity) will help convince those round B investors to come on board.
Old 26th March 2014
  #1862
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
On a completely different note, some argued that the whole Kickstart thing is just a marketing thing rather than the Pono team actually needing the money to launch the player, shop and desktop application. Do any agree? And if so, wouldn't it be much to early to create so much hype? Wouldn't most people have forgotten by the time October comes?

Alistair
I am going to be watching the progress of this product with great interest.

Once all the money is in - all $5M, it's gotta start getting spent...

So where is all the money going to come from to sustain this revolution of quality sound? How many customers are prepared to pony up $24 for this sound and are they going to be repeat customers?... How many will dish out $400 on the player and carry it around with their iPod too?

They have to capitalise on the buzz of the Kickstarter bid as being the 4th most successful #kickstarter, 1st in Tech.

Is the whole Pono thing just going to fall on deaf ears after a year or so?
Old 26th March 2014
  #1863
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
On a completely different note, some argued that the whole Kickstart thing is just a marketing thing rather than the Pono team actually needing the money to launch the player, shop and desktop application. Do any agree?
Sure, KS is part of the marketing. Also helps gauge customer interest. The additional funds don't hurt, either ... all in all, a no-brainer for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Wouldn't most people have forgotten by the time October comes?
You mean this thread won't still be going strong in six months?

But seriously, now that they've actually had people "buying" the player, they'll need to either deliver a working product or issue refunds at some point. I doubt anyone who's sunk money into the KS will have forgotten about it. I suspect that when October rolls around, if there's no news, those people will be loudly chanting "I want my Pono!" which will be a public reminder of what was promised. It'll be interesting to see what happens.

On a side note, the technical discussions here have been fascinating. Thanks to all who have posted.

Cheers,
Eddie
Old 26th March 2014
  #1864
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkorten View Post
Don't forget validation too, investors don't want risk, the fact that people become active in pre-purchasing on these kickstarter type venues gives them further assurance that the product will find uptake in the market. The company will require further capitalization after the product is made and the success of the kickstarter campaign (or popularity) will help convince those round B investors to come on board.
This is a good point but as some 'Kickstarter activists' have pointed out, it seems in some ways at odds with the stated intent of Kickstarter. But the strategy appears to have worked fairly well as far as generating publicity and buzz in the tech press. I don't see much engagement outside that first circle -- but that's why these things are carefully staged and phased. You build awareness in core communities and then, hopefully, build your market out from there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseflaw View Post
[...]

Is the whole Pono thing just going to fall on deaf ears after a year or so?
You've been saving that, haven't you? heh
Old 26th March 2014
  #1865
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseflaw View Post
I am going to be watching the progress of this product with great interest.

Once all the money is in - all $5M, it's gotta start getting spent...

So where is all the money going to come from to sustain this revolution of quality sound? How many customers are prepared to pony up $24 for this sound and are they going to be repeat customers?... How many will dish out $400 on the player and carry it around with their iPod too?

They have to capitalise on the buzz of the Kickstarter bid as being the 4th most successful #kickstarter, 1st in Tech.

Is the whole Pono thing just going to fall on deaf ears after a year or so?
And I would caution: Four months ago I bought an FiiO X3 player from J&R for $200. It takes micro SD cards up to 64gb and plays 192kHz, 24 bit and all file formats (FLAC preferred by me). Why doesn't this fit the bill that Pono is trying to go after? Wouldn't sales of the FiiO X3 be going wild if that is all the market was asking for?

The FiiO X3 even has a S/PDIF output, as well as a line output. (And a reset button!)
Old 26th March 2014
  #1866
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkorten View Post
And I would caution: Four months ago I bought an FiiO X3 player from J&R for $200. It takes micro SD cards up to 64gb and plays 192kHz, 24 bit and all file formats (FLAC preferred by me). Why doesn't this fit the bill that Pono is trying to go after? Wouldn't sales of the FiiO X3 be going wild if that is all the market was asking for?
The FiiO wasn't autographed by Neil Young.

Cheers,
Eddie
Old 26th March 2014
  #1867
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkorten View Post

So... I ask in return, have you tried to hear the difference between an analog square wave and an analog sine wave at 10kHz?

I will do my best to recruit a second subject for an ABX testing per your request, tonight.
I have no way of generating an analog 10khz signal, so no (which I think I've mentioned).

I have done a/b/x testing with mixed/mastered and raw files at various sampling rates and not been able to tell the difference.

My point is, until you have done a/b/x testing you have not "heard" the difference. Confirmation bias is HUGE.
Old 26th March 2014
  #1868
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
I have no way of generating an analog 10khz signal, so no (which I think I've mentioned).

I have done a/b/x testing with mixed/mastered and raw files at various sampling rates and not been able to tell the difference.

My point is, until you have done a/b/x testing you have not "heard" the difference. Confirmation bias is HUGE.
I completely understand that you wouldn't hear a difference in the digital domain.

Here's one for you. They are especially handy for troubleshooting...

Launch of Pono2MHz DDS Function Signal Generator Frequency Counter Square Wave Pulse Test | eBay

Not so expensive.

I have no bias. BTW.

Old 26th March 2014
  #1869
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noiseflaw's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie TX View Post
The FiiO wasn't autographed by Neil Young.

Cheers,
Eddie
But you will not have to visit casualty if you sit down with it still in your trouser pocket tho'.
Old 26th March 2014
  #1870
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkorten View Post
And I would caution: Four months ago I bought an FiiO X3 player from J&R for $200. It takes micro SD cards up to 64gb and plays 192kHz, 24 bit and all file formats (FLAC preferred by me). Why doesn't this fit the bill that Pono is trying to go after? Wouldn't sales of the FiiO X3 be going wild if that is all the market was asking for?

The FiiO X3 even has a S/PDIF output, as well as a line output. (And a reset button!)
Gee, that looks pretty nice.

FiiO

If they made one of those with an Android phone in it and OK ADC, I might just put that at the top of my wish list.

I do note that the FiiO player's converter maker Wolfson supplies converters for a number of consumer products, including Xboxes, many iPods, early iPhones, PSP, some other higher end phones...
Quote:
Wolfson audio products can also be found in most Tegra 2 SoC devices and some devices like the Samsung Wave S8500 and Samsung i9000 Galaxy S smartphones,[12] as well as a number of LG phones including the LG-LB4400 music phone and the Android-powered LG Optimus GT540 smartphone.[13]
Old 26th March 2014
  #1871
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Mixerman's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
This says nothing about propaganda about the pricing of CDs. (Trying to prove something this way is just flawed logic).
You made a statement. Several really. This is the one I was responding to:

"Tell me Bob, who is this "tech industry" you talk about? Where do they meet to decide what the plan is for the whole tech industry propaganda? Do they have a club? A secret handshake?"

Quote:
More importantly, did you miss the part that shows the price of CDs rising until digital downloads arrive? You do not need an explanation for something that doesn't exist.
No. It's not a debate that interests me. My only intention was to point out the absurdity in your claim that "tech industry" collusion amounts to some kind of tin hat conspiracy theory, when there is clear evidence to the contrary. I mean, you asked if there was a "secret handshake" as if it's preposterous that tech companies are working together, when it's been established that they are.

This puts your "expertise" in question.

Enjoy,

Mixerman
Old 26th March 2014
  #1872
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Arksun's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkorten View Post
I gave an example of what happens to a 10kHz square wave when sampled at 44.1kHz. I then showed that digital filtering has the effect of putting a "ringing" effect on the waveform. People told me I was confused and that this is a Gibb's effect. My point was that if we choose any kind of digital filter - ringing will occur (if limiting high frequency) and not just the Gibb's effect (which shows that ringing occurs when you represent a function with less than infinite terms). Gibbs does explain why ringing occurs because you are limiting the bandwidth.
You gave an example of what happens to a square wave at 10khz after its been through ADA, and for such a high frequency square wave your oscilloscope showed a perfect sine wave, no extra ringing no Gibbs phenomenon no nothing, just a pure sine at 10khz.



So the question is, what is it exactly you think you're hearing in a 10khz square wave that isn't in a 10khz sine wave?, because the only components of a 10khz square wave are its 10khz sine fundamental, then the 1st odd harmonic at 30khz and then higher harmonics after that.

You've already implied that one doesn't need to hear a 30khz harmonic:

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkorten View Post
Where is it stated that you have to hear 30kHz to hear the difference between a sine wave and a square wave at 10kHz?
...which is basically the same as saying we can't hear much higher frequencies, so what IS it you think within our audible range that is different between the two?. You can't argue its because of ringing in the case of 10khz, because all thats left after being digitized is a pure sine wave.

Because 10khz is the fundamental and the first harmonic of the square is beyond our hearing, any other audibly present frequency up to 20khz would mean that whatever sound it is is no longer a pure square.

Thus the only logical conclusions left is that when you play your 10khz square, either the signal generator has a significant amount of extra noise or intermodulation distortion generated too, or as you play it through your amp and speaker (or active monitor), it doesn't have any built in LPF to filter out the ultrasound and the extra high frequencies are causing some form of distortion in the audible range (which btw, many high end monitors do have both an HPF and LPF built in to filter out unwanted infrasound and ultrasound that could otherwise adversly affect the speakers performance)
Old 26th March 2014
  #1873
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noiseflaw's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
I do note that the FiiO player's converter maker Wolfson supplies converters for a number of consumer products, including Xboxes, many iPods, early iPhones, PSP, some other higher end phones...
Quote:
Wolfson audio products can also be found in most Tegra 2 SoC devices and some devices like the Samsung Wave S8500 and Samsung i9000 Galaxy S smartphones,[12] as well as a number of LG phones including the LG-LB4400 music phone and the Android-powered LG Optimus GT540 smartphone.
Interesting.

With the cost of Pono and its content, I see it as an aspirational consumer item.

We know consumers are prepared to spend big on 'fashionable' aspirational items like Beats Headphones - but note the massive marketing push and muscle behind the Beats campaign, and you get the content for a nominal price, as well as being able to show off your glorious cool-cred headphone gear!

Notso with Pono.
Old 26th March 2014
  #1874
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
Gee, that looks pretty nice.

FiiO

If they made one of those with an Android phone in it and OK ADC, I might just put that at the top of my wish list.

I do note that the FiiO player's converter maker Wolfson supplies converters for a number of consumer products, including Xboxes, many iPods, early iPhones, PSP, some other higher end phones...
If I couldn't hear my home stereo any more. This would still be a most satisfying second (though my entire LP collection would be lost ).

Launch of Pono-_3260013.jpg

But the sound from this FiiO thing is incredible. The headphone amp is great too, but nothing like the Little Dot Mk I+ special. So that is recommended.
Old 26th March 2014
  #1875
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
I need proof to advocate further research? What rule book is this from or are you making it up?
But you have gone way beyond "advocating further research"! If you had stopped at "advocating further research" I don't think anyone would object.
• you have "lobbied" for a higher value than 20kHz
• you have said that you personally believe the value is higher than 20kHz though you have no measurements to back that up
• you have attributed the 'better' sound of high sampling rates to this same unproven ability of human ears.
• you have deliberately misinterpreted and twisted existing research to claim, for example, that vibrations measured in the skull are proof of "hearing"
• you have claimed, but not presented to anyone that "the science" agrees with you
•you believe that because some scientific information gets revised, that proof of ultrasonic hearing is definitely 'coming someday' and apparently you want to get a 'jump' on it.

I don't think it is likely but I actually am "open" to the idea of a different measurement. But FIRST, let's see that measurement! You are unfortunately MORE THAN OPEN to a different measurement - you believe in that future measurement NOW - and apparently you don't even need to wait for someone to actually make it.

This is not like a scientist looking to learn what Reality has in store. This is like a politician looking to dig up dirt on his opponent. And if he can't find any, make something up.

Quote:
we know that ultrasound is ubiquitous...it can be proven - whereas the existence of God has not been.
no matter how ubiquitous radio waves and ultraviolet light are, we still can't perceive them with our EYES. Getting a suntan is not "seeing" ultraviolet light.

Quote:
spamming the thread with pointless arguments.
The reason it matters, hell the reason YOU STARTED IT, is that many, if not most, of the discussions of digital audio and this or that sample rate must always end with the honest disclaimer "within the audible band". The woo-woos see this as the one opportunity they have left to believe in Magical Audio by insisting the audible band is much greater than it actually is. Sadly, all the evidence is stacked against them.

This incredibly subtle "ultrasonic perception" , that has eluded all attempts at detection, that is not consciously felt, does not show up as an unconscious statistical preference, that does not make the electrodes in the brain stem jump, that has no physical structure in the basilar membrane to correspond to those frequencies; this "perception" that you fervently believe in, despite a total lack of evidence, somehow becomes SO STRONG that is is responsible for the 'better sound' of high sample rates? Like coming up for air?

If high sample rates are better, why does "ultrasound" HAVE TO be the reason why?

How much 35k is coming out of Neil Young's guitar amp miked with an SM57 anyway?
Old 26th March 2014
  #1876
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkorten View Post

I have no bias. BTW.

You might just be the only person in history with no bias! Congratulations! You should be profiled in the Smithsonian.
Old 26th March 2014
  #1877
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arksun View Post

So the question is, what is it exactly you think you're hearing in a 10khz square wave that isn't in a 10khz sine wave?, because the only components of a 10khz square wave are its 10khz sine fundamental, then the 1st odd harmonic at 30khz and then higher harmonics after that.

You've already implied that one doesn't need to hear a 30khz harmonic:

...which is basically the same as saying we can't hear much higher frequencies, so what IS it you think within our audible range that is different between the two?. You can't argue its because of ringing in the case of 10khz, because all thats left after being digitized is a pure sine wave.
Indeed, I don't understand what he's saying with that framing either.
Old 26th March 2014
  #1878
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkorten View Post
I completely understand that you wouldn't hear a difference in the digital domain.
Wait... why wouldn't I hear a difference when the sample rate is 192 vs 44.1, if your contention is correct?

I believe there is no audible difference even though the waveform doesn't appear correct, because, as others have said, the difference between a square wave and a sine wave is the additional harmonics above the frequencies of human hearing.
Old 26th March 2014
  #1879
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
How much 35k is coming out of Neil Young's guitar amp miked with an SM57 anyway?
Not his guitar amp.. have you heard his VOICE? That mf'er goes HIGH.
Old 26th March 2014
  #1880
Gear Nut
 

There seems to be some confusion here - I will embed answers

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arksun View Post
You gave an example of what happens to a square wave at 10khz after its been through ADA, and for such a high frequency square wave your oscilloscope showed a perfect sine wave, no extra ringing no Gibbs phenomenon no nothing, just a pure sine at 10khz.
Correct - this is because you are seeing basically two samples per waveform and the sync function used for filtering provides an image of basically a sine wave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arksun View Post
So the question is, what is it exactly you think you're hearing in a 10khz square wave that isn't in a 10khz sine wave?, because the only components of a 10khz square wave are its 10khz sine fundamental, then the 1st odd harmonic at 30khz and then higher harmonics after that.
Again I was speaking not of the digitized signals, but the signals before digitization. From the output of a tape recorder, a signal generator or an LP for that matter. Anything that hasn't put the 10kHz square wave through the digitization and analog reconstruction process.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arksun View Post
You've already implied that one doesn't need to hear a 30khz harmonic:

...which is basically the same as saying we can't hear much higher frequencies, so what IS it you think within our audible range that is different between the two?. You can't argue its because of ringing in the case of 10khz, because all thats left after being digitized is a pure sine wave.

Because 10khz is the fundamental and the first harmonic of the square is beyond our hearing, any other audibly present frequency up to 20khz would mean that whatever sound it is is no longer a pure square.

Thus the only logical conclusions left is that when you play your 10khz square, either the signal generator has a significant amount of extra noise or intermodulation distortion generated too, or as you play it through your amp and speaker (or active monitor), it doesn't have any built in LPF to filter out the ultrasound and the extra high frequencies are causing some form of distortion in the audible range (which btw, many high end monitors do have both an HPF and LPF built in to filter out unwanted infrasound and ultrasound that could otherwise adversly affect the speakers performance)
There is a lot of literature on what it is we hear when the bandwidth goes beyond 20kHz even though it is fairly well accepted that we don't hear much above 16kHz (on a good day). I am not put on this earth to convince you... it doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is that I can easily hear the difference. I can, as you requested, run an abx on somebody else and report their results as well.

Go ahead and spend the $50 and see for yourself. In the mean time you can read stuff like this and weep: Inaudible High-Frequency Sounds Affect Brain Activity: Hypersonic Effect | Journal of Neurophysiology

There has been quite a lot of literature on this in the audio journals (peer reviewed) as well. Don't have time to look them up right now.

I can hear the difference on my computer's Radio Shack Optimus speakers, and on my Shure SRH1840 headphones. I'm sure I will hear the same on my Harbeth's in the living room, but I haven't tried yet.
Old 26th March 2014
  #1881
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkorten View Post
If I couldn't hear my home stereo any more. This would still be a most satisfying second (though my entire LP collection would be lost ).

Attachment 391353

But the sound from this FiiO thing is incredible. The headphone amp is great too, but nothing like the Little Dot Mk I+ special. So that is recommended.
You know what I liked about the Wolfson page on it?

While I didn't read every single word, only once while reading it did I slap my forehead and blurt out, "What a bunch of horse****!" -- the claim that DSP EQ induces 'phase distortion' while their analog EQ does not. Now THAT is BS. Since it is through summing signal with a phase shifted copy of signal (IIR filter) that virtually all analog EQ works. But it was the only howler in what I read...

That's pretty darn good for marketing materials in that widely abused market. heh

Overall, it seemed sober and reasonable -- and the details about the use of discrete op amps was interesting. I'm, by no means, any sort of expert in modern personal device design, but the rationale they were laying out made a certain sense to me.



I'm definitely keeping my eye on this. That said, most of the time I'm sitting here glued to my work area in the golden sonic triangle...


PS... going off this sub-thread's particular focus, I note you link to the arguably discredited, largely unreplicated results and contested conclusions of the Oohashi studies. I think you will find that Oohashi's findings and conclusions have many detractors in the scientific community.

As has been noted at a number of points in this thread, what folks believe are perceived differences in content between material with ultrasonic content and the same material without that content are often found to be intermodulation artifacts from nonlinearities in the PB system, particularly in speakers, which are notoriously subject to IM distortion.
Old 26th March 2014
  #1882
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Wait... why wouldn't I hear a difference when the sample rate is 192 vs 44.1, if your contention is correct?

I believe there is no audible difference even though the waveform doesn't appear correct, because, as others have said, the difference between a square wave and a sine wave is the additional harmonics above the frequencies of human hearing.
This test I could do. Would require some setup. But my guess is one would hear a difference. It may not be you or me, but my 16 year old son who hears those mosquito teenager repellent devices.

It could be because of your hearing. I'm 57 and it appears I'm topping out somewhere between 13kHz and 14kHz today (using my handy dandy signal generator!). Perhaps your high frequency hearing has been impacted by loud music, shooting, carpentry. Any regular exposure to loud noise would cause this kind of degradation.

But I know my high frequency hearing changes over time. Some days better than others. Coffee not so good for it.
Old 26th March 2014
  #1883
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post

<SNIP>

PS... going off this sub-thread's particular focus, I note you link to the discredited, largely unreplicated results and contested conclusions of the Oohashi studies. I think you will find that Oohashi's findings and conclusions have many detractors in the scientific community.
Like I said - read it and weep!

I will look out for the other work presented in the audio journals. But I really have to get back to work now...
Old 26th March 2014
  #1884
I have read much of the Oohashi studies and they are quite interesting. I've also read a number of point by point critiques of his methods and conclusions -- and I found those by and large rather persuasive.

But I'm leaving further analysis to the perceptual scientists. It's worth noting that the research arm of NHK, the Japanese public broadcasting organization, is reported to have been unable to replicate a number of Oohashi's findings. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperso...trary_evidence

By the way, Oohashi is not a perceptual scientist -- he has a doctorate in agriculture -- although he has been active in a very broad swath of the arts and sciences and is probably best known as composer of the soundtrack for the anime film, Akira.

Tsutomu Oohashi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Old 26th March 2014
  #1885
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Arksun's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkorten View Post
There is a lot of literature on what it is we hear when the bandwidth goes beyond 20kHz even though it is fairly well accepted that we don't hear much above 16kHz (on a good day). I am not put on this earth to convince you... it doesn't matter to me. What matters to me is that I can easily hear the difference. I can, as you requested, run an abx on somebody else and report their results as well.
Its either one thing or the other. Either you're stating we can hear or in some other way sense ultrasonic frequencies (which contradicts your statement that we don't need to hear 30khz harmonic for a 10khz square wave), or you're stating we don't need to hear that high, but we dont need to to tell the difference between 10khz sine wave and square wave, which makes absolutely no sense because the ONLY component of a 10khz square wave in the audible range is a 10khz sine wave. Thats it!, nothing else is present, unless there's some kind of other distortion going on. This seems to be a concept you're struggling with for some reason and I have absolutely no idea why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkorten View Post
I can hear the difference on my computer's Radio Shack Optimus speakers, and on my Shure SRH1840 headphones. I'm sure I will hear the same on my Harbeth's in the living room, but I haven't tried yet.
Unlike others I dont doubt that you're hearing a difference (although maybe I should as you haven't blind tested yourself to rule out expectation bias), but if there is a difference it has nothing to do with hearing ultrasound, or some secret extra frequency that is some hidden part of the definition of a square wave, but everything to do with hearing some additional distortion going on within the audible range that is not a part of what makes up a perfect 10khz square wave signal (or at least shouldn't do with a high quality signal generator) In much the same way that people prefer analog tape for its non-linearities, the extra distortion it has, again happening within our audible range.
Old 26th March 2014
  #1886
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Not his guitar amp.. have you heard his VOICE? That mf'er goes HIGH.
heh
true, but what if an album was solo electric guitar out of a typical guitar amp miked with a 57 ?

would it still need high sampling rates to not sound "underwater"?



Old 26th March 2014
  #1887
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
It's worth noting that the research arm of NHK, the Japanese public broadcasting organization, is reported to have been unable to replicate a number of Oohashi's findings. Hypersonic effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
whenever I hear the word "Oohashi" I reach for my revolver

this unrepeatable study is the ONLY study the Believers have ever had that gets the result they "want" so desperately to be true. No wonder it is still cited so many years after all the attempts to replicate it have failed
Old 26th March 2014
  #1888
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
whenever I hear the word "Oohashi" I reach for my revolver

[...]
If my signature area wasn't already so crowded... heh




OK... I realize that a large percentage of folks reading Joe's crack aren't going to know what it refers to or the significance. The original and quite infamous phrase was "When I hear the word culture, I reach for my revolver," uttered by Hans Johst, himself a playwright. In fact, Johst wasn't just any playwright, but the poet laureate of a historically unpopular German national government in the '30s and '40s. At the time, it probably exemplified to many the oppressive neo-traditionalist arts culture that dominated the period there. But the pithy phrase gained a life of its own in the global arts community in subsequent decades, though, often used with a heavily ironic spin, of course.
Old 26th March 2014
  #1889
Now, now. Let's play nice. It was a sincere question on my part. I'm always intrigued by differences in scientific culture from field to field. I've known a number of clinical psychologists (socially) and I've been somewhat amazed at times by aspects of their education and the very different orientation to objective science that appears to be inculcated in some of them.

Old 26th March 2014
  #1890
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jkorten View Post

It could be because of your hearing. I'm 57 and it appears I'm topping out somewhere between 13kHz and 14kHz today (using my handy dandy signal generator!). Perhaps your high frequency hearing has been impacted by loud music, shooting, carpentry. Any regular exposure to loud noise would cause this kind of degradation.
That is one possible answer. Possibilities:

- As you suggest, my ears are bad. That is certainly possible! However the AES tested many people in a published study around a decade ago and found that nobody could consistently hear a difference. So... that means I'm not at all an outlier. It means that quite possibly YOU are the outlier.

- It's expectation bias on your end (I've eliminated that variable by a/b/x testing on my end). This, IMHO, is the most likely scenario, because I know how this bias taints the human experience.

- There is something else at play that you are hearing (some other type of distortion). Possible, but needs to be further tested.
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