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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 23rd March 2014
  #1621
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Knock yourselves out with being right, chaps. Hope it makes you feel better.
I don't think this is a fair statement. Whether you believe in the science or not, that's what's being discussed here. Tangible numbers.

To accuse others of just trying to be right when it is clear that they just want to set the record straight is a bit disingenuous and signals that you're out of ammunition.

No one from your side of the fence has been able to rationally explain why the math is wrong. So if anything, it is your side that's just trying to be "right".

But that might just be my opinion.
Old 23rd March 2014
  #1622
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
I don't think this is a fair statement. Whether you believe in the science or not, that's what's being discussed here. Tangible numbers.

To accuse others of just trying to be right when it is clear that they just want to set the record straight is a bit disingenuous and signals that you're out of ammunition.

No one from your side of the fence has been able to rationally explain why the math is wrong. So if anything, it is your side that's just trying to be "right".

But that might just be my opinion.
Yes, I am out of ammunition. As all here are merely arguing about the science of it. And no, that is NOT all there is to this. In fact I don't even think it is the important part here. The important part is any slight possibility of cultural change for the better. Regardless of science.

To me that is it anyway, obviously not to anyone here busy pinning wrongness on Neil Young and the whole thing. Hence I am done here as no one is willing to focus their vision on that instead of squabbling over being right about science, which I have zero interest in. The thread was started in the spirit of being excited about something started by people who care about sound quality and want to make things better and has become a minefield of petty bickering.

So if you want to put me on any side of any fence, put me on the "hoping for a positive cultural change in recording and consuming of music' side as opposed to the 'likes to argue about science in threads in complete disregard of the bigger picture' side. Have fun.
Old 23rd March 2014
  #1623
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paul brown's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post

So if you want to put me on any side of any fence, put me on the "hoping for a positive cultural change in recording and consuming of music' side as opposed to the 'likes to argue about science in threads in complete disregard of the bigger picture' side. Have fun.
it is an interesting point you bring up, Karloff. i'd be interested in your reasoning why you think that larger files with more high frequency content is a step on the path to cultural change. i can think of other steps that could be possible. more music education possibilities for young people, realigning music as a form of art rather than a commodity manipulated by suits, giving volume control back to the listener (leave some headroom on the masters perhaps?), opening more small live music venues (maybe even subsidize them with the intention of bringing music back into communities. music therapy is an incredibly powerful tool in helping with psychological issues. with the level of antidepressant use in the general public, i'd say psychological issues are widespread), etc, etc.

it is hard to see the pono movement as being a serious step towards cultural change. i'm trying to see the path ahead of this step in the direction you hope for. the real cynic in me sees the possibility, with increased bandwidth and decreased digital storage costs, for the record companies and content providers to make money by reselling back catalogues. i'd love to believe otherwise, but none of the evidence i can find supports it. i'd like to believe that Neil Young is genuine. passionate people are perhaps more susceptible to bias, especially when they have a Cause.

the pono player is just a dac and headphone amplifier. i haven't heard it so cannot judge its sonic qualities. pono is not about the player (other than the novelty factor of owning one signed by a famous person if you've paid enough. i guess they will become collector's items. good marketing strategy, especially when used in conjunction with Kickstarter), it is about the selling of music. will audio reproduction get "better" as a result? i'll wait and see...
Old 23rd March 2014
  #1624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul brown View Post
it is an interesting point you bring up, Karloff. i'd be interested in your reasoning why you think that larger files with more high frequency content is a step on the path to cultural change. i can think of other steps that could be possible. more music education possibilities for young people, realigning music as a form of art rather than a commodity manipulated by suits, giving volume control back to the listener (leave some headroom on the masters perhaps?), opening more small live music venues (maybe even subsidize them with the intention of bringing music back into communities. music therapy is an incredibly powerful tool in helping with psychological issues. with the level of antidepressant use in the general public, i'd say psychological issues are widespread), etc, etc.

it is hard to see the pono movement as being a serious step towards cultural change. i'm trying to see the path ahead of this step in the direction you hope for. the real cynic in me sees the possibility, with increased bandwidth and decreased digital storage costs, for the record companies and content providers to make money by reselling back catalogues. i'd love to believe otherwise, but none of the evidence i can find supports it. i'd like to believe that Neil Young is genuine. passionate people are perhaps more susceptible to bias, especially when they have a Cause.

the pono player is just a dac and headphone amplifier. i haven't heard it so cannot judge its sonic qualities. pono is not about the player (other than the novelty factor of owning one signed by a famous person if you've paid enough. i guess they will become collector's items. good marketing strategy, especially when used in conjunction with Kickstarter), it is about the selling of music. will audio reproduction get "better" as a result? i'll wait and see...
I am not for 192 files particularly, but most definitely for changing the greater reality of 320mp3's to something like 24/48 uncompressed being the standard. And if Pono can do anything whatsoever that brings the idea that better quality files are something of interest to any amount of people that at the moment couldn't care less, than that's good in my book.

Not at all interested in any high frequency content, but to me a 24bit file at any rate from 44.1 sounds better than a 16bit one. Less confined. Couldn't care less about arguing scientifically why or why not this is possible. It is. Also has slightly less punch. 16/44.1 gives a certain punch. 24 is more open.

So there...now I will be shot down in flames for being a fool that doesn't know what he's talking about, but that's fine.

Again, the CD debate here is in the whole scheme misplaced, as the shift of interest is from worse than that files like mp3 or OggVorbis to uncompressed 24bit files.

You say leave some headroom on the masters? Yes, well if people start to finish off two versions of their records, one 'normal', treated as everything today, and one Pono stylee for release at 24bit whatever uncompressed, they might just decide to not murder the Pono version and hence suddenly we would have a load of new recordings finished/crafted with a different headstate/to a different standard. It could be a way to win the loudness war by not having to beat it. It can rage on in the 'normal' versions, but would create a parallel reality of quality, which once people taste it I for one believe will grow in popularity very quickly. Only to a certain size mind, as the large bulk of people still will be fine with their compressed files , but nevertheless it would grow.

And yes, the suits only want this to milk it to the max and re-release/sell stuff again. Obviously. But I don't care. I don't have to buy it. I want the new reality with quality versions being produced. Obviously the price structures suggested here are not going to be helpful for this to grow. It should cost like mp3's, just be full fat files. And stuff shouldn't be sold at higher rates than it was recorded. But hey ho, the thing is a direction, not an arrival at the destination.


In the end of the day what all here (other than the thread starter) have missed is that this could be a kicker for US to be part of a move to something better. And that how WE interact with this is actually going to be what makes stuff happen or not. And if all here that do this for a living can do no better than ego bitch about why this is crap and on what grounds and look clever then we don't bloody deserve any better.
Old 23rd March 2014
  #1625
What I dont like is the artists in the video slagging off the sound quality of the millions of cd's we all bought that made them rich! and that once it was perfectly acceptable but now its inferior!
Old 23rd March 2014
  #1626
mixmixmix
Guest
agree, those "artists" are money hungry jerks.
Old 23rd March 2014
  #1627
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Really? Wow.

Funny how focusing on who is or isn't either a fool or a money hungry jerk out to get you stops ones focus landing on the possibility of goodness. You chaps must have a lot of money hungry jerks in your lives, by way of giving it so much focus and hence attracting them.

Now if we only focused so much energy on good things to attract those instead.
Old 23rd March 2014
  #1628
mixmixmix
Guest
We are focusing on good things. It 's them who focus on money -"saviors of music" so to speak. Hawking they lame excuses to sell the same old catalogue again.
Old 23rd March 2014
  #1629
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixmixmix View Post
We are focusing on good things. It 's them who focus on money -"saviors of music" so to speak. Hawking they lame excuses to sell the same old catalogue again.
Sorry, but that really sounds like "He started it!" coming out of a 5 year old's mouth.

Do you guys really believe that all those musicians are purely wh*ring here?? Really? None of those guys have integrity? Sure, some more than others, but ALL those music loving guys are purely selling for cash here? Then that is some sad, sad reality you live in! And you choose this yourself. Thinking any different is daftness.

The suits trying to hawk the same catalogue again is hardly surprising, is it? A scorpion does what a scorpion does. So what? Do you need to buy it? What about the potential here to change how people make records NOW? Not a WORD about this or how it could possibly be harnessed in the whole sorry thread.

I bet Silver Sonya feels quite strange about having ended up starting something with hope and enthusiasm and it turning into a complete negativity focus fest.
Old 23rd March 2014
  #1630
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Yes, I am out of ammunition. As all here are merely arguing about the science of it. And no, that is NOT all there is to this. In fact I don't even think it is the important part here. The important part is any slight possibility of cultural change for the better. Regardless of science.

To me that is it anyway, obviously not to anyone here busy pinning wrongness on Neil Young and the whole thing. Hence I am done here as no one is willing to focus their vision on that instead of squabbling over being right about science, which I have zero interest in. The thread was started in the spirit of being excited about something started by people who care about sound quality and want to make things better and has become a minefield of petty bickering.

So if you want to put me on any side of any fence, put me on the "hoping for a positive cultural change in recording and consuming of music' side as opposed to the 'likes to argue about science in threads in complete disregard of the bigger picture' side. Have fun.
And I, and many others here, share that goal with you.

We just disagree that fooling the public with high res audio (and not addressing the real problems) will get us there.

Thanks
Old 23rd March 2014
  #1631
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bogosort's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
And if all here that do this for a living can do no better than ego bitch about why this is crap and on what grounds and look clever then we don't bloody deserve any better.
No, those who blithely accept the promise of music salvation deserve no better.

In the face of a potentially industry-shaking campaign (according to Pono, anyway), professionals do not rely on hope; they educate themselves on the issues and get to the bottom of things. Past the hype. Remember, audio engineers are literally the most qualified people on the planet to discuss the merits of Pono. If a client or a family member or the local paper asks for our opinions, we should be -- at minimum -- well-informed on all the issues, and able to provide expert guidance on the matter. This is another of the many facets of professionalism.
Old 23rd March 2014
  #1632
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Do you guys really believe that all those musicians are purely wh*ring here??
No I don't. I think they are misguided but not necessarily dishonest.

Quote:
What about the potential here to change how people make records NOW? Not a WORD about this or how it could possibly be harnessed in the whole sorry thread.
It has been discussed actually and many of us simply do not see any real potential in the whole Pono adventure to change the way records are made. I do see the potential to cause disillusionment from the public though which would benefit no one.

PS: Sorry to say this but if you really believe that Not a WORD has been said on the subject, you really are not paying attention at all.

Alistair
Old 23rd March 2014
  #1633
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
And if all here that do this for a living can do no better than ego bitch about why this is crap and on what grounds and look clever then we don't bloody deserve any better.
You have it absolutely backwards. The whole hi-res thing is about ego. Too much ego to accept the fallibility of your sense and accept reality.

Us addressing the hi-res non-sense aren't doing it for ego reasons. We care about the truth while you seem to just be chasing a dream...

Alistair
Old 23rd March 2014
  #1634
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WiZKiD's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
You have it absolutely backwards. The whole hi-res thing is about ego. Too much ego to accept the fallibility of your sense and accept reality.

Us addressing the hi-res non-sense aren't doing it for ego reasons. We care about the truth while you seem to just be chasing a dream...

Alistair
+1

YES SIR!

I had a conversation once with Jimmy Douglass as an intern and he explained this to me. I left that conversation knowing it's my Job to care. My point to him was that an MP3 is just a medium of exchange and why should I care about how people consume music?

He explained that if we don't care about the fidelity of music, then music will just decline in quality and this was 12 years ago. He was right.

It has gotten better in recent years.
Old 23rd March 2014
  #1635
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
You have it absolutely backwards. The whole hi-res thing is about ego. Too much ego to accept the fallibility of your sense and accept reality.

Us addressing the hi-res non-sense aren't doing it for ego reasons. We care about the truth while you seem to just be chasing a dream...

Alistair
Yes I am chasing a dream. But there is no 'just' as in 'only' about it. This is where we part ways, as to you chasing a dream is 'just', and to me it is of importance.

It entails music formats going in the same quality from the studio they were finished in to the listener. And no, if you have read my posts I don't think this needs 192, as most music wasn't even recorded at those rates anyway, and agree the way Pono waves that around is unfortunate, especially at that price structure.


But I DO like that ANY sort of initiative towards better sound is going on.

And no, I haven't got it backwards at all, as while I also care about the truth, in this instance I care more about the result. And to me a hypothetical situation could run like so:

Consumer bites. Gets Pono player and gets some of his favourite back catalogue in 192, mastered from tape masters (with any luck, as like pointed out some 192 masters sold might just be converted up versions of previously lower rates...). Now the reality starts. This guy is used to hearing mp3's or OggVorbis files from his computer or Sonos or headphones, so assuming the Pono player has decent converters at this point one of two things happens:

He either hears no difference and feels conned, or he does and goes wow. The outcome of this to me is largely dependent on what he plugs his Pono player into. If he happens to still have a reasonable hifi I reckon he'll go wow. And if he is at all interested in Pono chances are if he doesn't and CAN't hear any difference on his Sonos or whatever little device speakers he might have the awareness to try the thing on a better system before dismissing it, as after all he did buy it in the search for good sound.

In any case, if he hears the thing on a decent system I reckon it'll be wow, and then a few more things happen. He is starting to play with the idea of making this his normal way of listening to music and finding out about what that would entail. At that point the pricing of Pono is going to hurt him and piss him off a lot. But he will find ways to get his hands in better quality files from wherever to feed his Pono player with if he liked the experience.......and realise those 24/44.1 files sound just as good it seems, but still crucify mp3's......and if enough people start to go like that there will be a demand never here before for better quality files. At which point perhaps the price has to come down for people to actually buy a couple as opposed to torrenting them all, or the streaming services will include them as options to download to play in offline mode, I don't know what the next step would be .........but at that point the change in the culture has already occurred!

By which time Pono might have failed and the next things are coming in, but the higher quality file is now in the mainstream.......before you know it people might have a reason to buy some half decent hifi speakers, like what used to be normal (not hifi snake oil type, just normal and 'beat the **** out of a Sonos in the corner") to enjoy their music on again.....

Now, how is that a bad end result? The only way that wouldn't happen is if almost all people decide they can't tell the difference and bail. Possibility. But I doubt it. Very much.
Old 23rd March 2014
  #1636
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bogosort View Post
No, those who blithely accept the promise of music salvation deserve no better.

In the face of a potentially industry-shaking campaign (according to Pono, anyway), professionals do not rely on hope; they educate themselves on the issues and get to the bottom of things. Past the hype. Remember, audio engineers are literally the most qualified people on the planet to discuss the merits of Pono. If a client or a family member or the local paper asks for our opinions, we should be -- at minimum -- well-informed on all the issues, and able to provide expert guidance on the matter. This is another of the many facets of professionalism.
And who are those then, for it isn't me, mate. And thanks for the cute mini lecture about 'facets of professionalism'.
Old 23rd March 2014
  #1637
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GJ999x's Avatar
Apols for the repost from another thread but....

I hope those who think they can tell the difference between 320kps mp3s and wavs have done double blind tests recently...

ABXer

ABX Binomial Probability Table

Pick your hi-fidelity track, render an mp3 in any daw, run the ABX test 20 times, get 15 of them right, and you're probably onto something.

PS I have not followed the inevitable s***storm debate in this thread and am not implicitly taking anyone's side, it' just.... science is fun!
Old 23rd March 2014
  #1638
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Yes, I am out of ammunition. As all here are merely arguing about the science of it. And no, that is NOT all there is to this. In fact I don't even think it is the important part here. The important part is any slight possibility of cultural change for the better. Regardless of science.

To me that is it anyway, obviously not to anyone here busy pinning wrongness on Neil Young and the whole thing. Hence I am done here as no one is willing to focus their vision on that instead of squabbling over being right about science, which I have zero interest in. The thread was started in the spirit of being excited about something started by people who care about sound quality and want to make things better and has become a minefield of petty bickering.

So if you want to put me on any side of any fence, put me on the "hoping for a positive cultural change in recording and consuming of music' side as opposed to the 'likes to argue about science in threads in complete disregard of the bigger picture' side. Have fun.

Great!!! We agree.....this is politics.
Old 23rd March 2014
  #1639
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Yes, I am out of ammunition. As all here are merely arguing about the science of it. And no, that is NOT all there is to this. In fact I don't even think it is the important part here. The important part is any slight possibility of cultural change for the better. Regardless of science.

To me that is it anyway, obviously not to anyone here busy pinning wrongness on Neil Young and the whole thing. Hence I
am done here as no one is willing to focus their vision on that instead of squabbling over being right about science, which I have zero interest in. The thread was started in the spirit of being excited about something started by people who care about sound quality and want to make things better and has become a minefield of petty bickering.

So if you want to put me on any side of any fence, put me on the "hoping for a positive cultural change in recording and consuming of music' side as opposed to the 'likes to argue about science in threads in complete disregard of the bigger picture' side. Have fun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul brown View Post
it is an interesting point you bring up, Karloff. i'd be interested in your reasoning why you think that larger files with more high frequency content is a step on the path to cultural change. i can think of other steps that could be possible. more music education possibilities for young people, realigning music as a form of art rather than a commodity manipulated by suits, giving volume control back to the listener (leave some headroom on the masters perhaps?), opening more small live music venues (maybe even subsidize them with the intention of bringing music back into communities. music therapy is an incredibly powerful tool in helping with psychological issues. with the level of antidepressant use in the general public, i'd say psychological issues are widespread), etc, etc.

it is hard to see the pono movement as being a serious step towards cultural change. i'm trying to see the path ahead of this step in the direction you hope for. the real cynic in me sees the possibility, with increased bandwidth and decreased digital storage costs, for the record companies and content providers to make money by reselling back catalogues. i'd love to believe otherwise, but none of the evidence i can find supports it. i'd like to believe that Neil Young is genuine. passionate people are perhaps more susceptible to bias, especially when they have a Cause.

the pono player is just a dac and headphone amplifier. i haven't heard it so cannot judge its sonic qualities. pono is not about the player (other than the novelty factor of owning one signed by a famous person if you've paid enough. i guess they will become collector's items. good marketing strategy, especially when used in conjunction with Kickstarter), it is about the selling of music. will audio reproduction get "better" as a result? i'll wait and see...

Like saying making all cars capable of 200mph will make everyone better drivers.
Old 23rd March 2014
  #1640
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post

So if you want to put me on any side of any fence, put me on the "hoping for a positive cultural change in recording and consuming of music' side as opposed to the 'likes to argue about science in threads in complete disregard of the bigger picture' side. Have fun.
If you care about audio engineering, then you care about science.

As far as creation or even listening to music go, that's a different story. The experience of being moved by music, or the experience of creating a work of art, is not impacted or bound by science. Truth is... An mp3 is high enough quality to really move or inspire someone, even if it was recorded on a four track cassette or Roland digital portastudio.

I honestly think that is the disconnect many if us have here. Many of us are artists, trying to create great stuff. Others aren't, and are concentrating on engineering or producing. The language and goals are different, and that means we sometimes take past each other.

So back to the topic at hand... I understand why you might not care about science. But you might not want to get into a discussion about the benefits of high sample rates if you don't want to talk science, because science is the only filter and language we have to evaluate the real world results. I think we've already established the current paradigm is enough for most people. It's not broken for most people.

I do think we need to improve the entire recording process so that it competes more with the sound of live music in a room, but that is a hugely different subject then the recording medium of choice. That goes to the limitations of transducers not the recording medium.
Old 23rd March 2014
  #1641
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
And who are those then, for it isn't me, mate. And thanks for the cute mini lecture about 'facets of professionalism'.
He really is right. If you are audio engineer, you should be informed and educated in the tools of your trade.
Old 23rd March 2014
  #1642
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James Lehmann's Avatar
 

Honestly, everyone's position on this is actually much more similar than folks seem to be able to accept (minus the part about taking everything so personally).

Leaving aside the 'un-winnable' arguments about who can hear what and why (see 1,000+ other threads on Gearslutz for this), after 55 pages here's what we are basically left with:
  1. In 5 years time mp3's and other lossy formats for music delivery will have probably had their day, as storage and download speeds rise exponentially
  2. $24.99 is too much to be charging for an album, regardless
  3. Pono is an expensive iPod that seems like it might sound better than most other units on the market, given decent source material
  4. In omitting to say anything about how they would like to help take up the huge issue of item 2 with their record companies, Neil Young and his buddies come across as being more mercenary than they probably intended to be by focussing their campaign for a new format to replace item 1 on the lesser issue of selling item 3
  5. The end - group hug
Old 23rd March 2014
  #1643
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
The important part is any slight possibility of cultural change for the better. Regardless of science.
the cultural change for the better will never occur if the science is faulty. Once the average listener realizes that the audible differences between these formats is as minuscule as it actually is, they will turn off to the whole idea of "high-resolution" formats.

IMO, a real change for the better should involve less squashed masters and more dynamic range, but rock/pop/rap is not using even a fraction of the dynamic range that CDs already provide. How can a 'new format' that turns out to be mostly snake oil effect "cultural change"? It will backfire instead.

Quote:
being right about science, which I have zero interest in.
We are recording engineers. Bridging the gap between music and technology is our job. Even if you are a musician who only records himself, you have a responsibility to "wear the hat" while you are engineering. If you still have no interest in it, and insist on operating the machinery with no understanding of what is going on under the hood, you should at least have the good graces to accept it when those who have that understanding tell you some facts about the science.

Quote:
The thread was started in the spirit of being excited about something started by people who care about sound quality and want to make things better
if you really care about "sound quality" the FIRST thing you have to do is make sure that you are actually getting and hearing that quality. That the quality you desire is actually coming FROM the product or idea that they are promoting. If all the rock stars starting promoting the uber-expensive magic audiophile power cables, it would be RELEVANT to say that power cables do not do anything to improve the sound. It is not enough to be "excited" about new power cables. They also have to actually work.

Except for CarmenC for whom placebo is sufficient.


Quote:
argue about science in threads in complete disregard of the bigger picture
when people use bad science, misleading science, or false science to promote a product, that IS part of the bigger picture. None of the cultural sea changes we ALL hope for will occur via a false belief in Fairy Dust.

There is also no benefit to anyone in explaining WHY something might be happening until it is certain that that thing is actually happening. The sidetracks of ridiculous theories about 'stairsteps' and ultrasonic perception and other magical beliefs that fly in the face of known research are even more irrelevant to "cultural change"... unless the idea behind that 'change' is the gradual dumbing down of civilization.
Old 23rd March 2014
  #1644
Quote:
Originally Posted by GJ999x View Post
Apols for the repost from another thread but....

I hope those who think they can tell the difference between 320kps mp3s and wavs have done double blind tests recently...

ABXer

ABX Binomial Probability Table

Pick your hi-fidelity track, render an mp3 in any daw, run the ABX test 20 times, get 15 of them right, and you're probably onto something.

PS I have not followed the inevitable s***storm debate in this thread and am not implicitly taking anyone's side, it' just.... science is fun!
The first link looks like it doesn't have any real content anymore (it's now a search engine catcher page).

Win users can use the excellent ABX 'plugin' utility for Foobar. I believe there is a simpler ABX tool in the Mac app store, as well.
Old 23rd March 2014
  #1645
Gear Maniac
I'm thinking the name will draw users that likely wouldn't have cared.

Pono
Porno

Awesome
Not gonna tell ya how I came across this thread...
Old 23rd March 2014
  #1646
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Slikjmuzik's Avatar
 

I haven't gone through all the pages, but, I don't understand this last page's discussion of high resolution formats here in the last page. Has pono unveiled what it actually does? Can you feed an mp3 and it fills in the gaps or something to make things sound better? What's the tie to high resolution formats and Pono? Just seems like the discussion is flaud to me. People are discussing the accuracy or inaccuracy of high resolution when I don't think Pono has anything to do with, does it? My basis for saying that is that upon watching the video, you hear people mentioning that Bob Dylan's Harmonica this and Aretha Franklin that, which were both done on noisy tape...so how did those 2 songs get onto the pono device and what's pono actually doing to those that were somehow transfered from either vinyl or tape to the pono device and how are car speakers able to reproduce them any better so that all those famous artists can be that impressed through a mere stock car system?

Please, someone, set me straight...
Old 23rd March 2014
  #1647
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GJ999x's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
The first link looks like it doesn't have any real content anymore (it's now a search engine catcher page).
Thank you, fixed. Hate those catcher pages.
Old 23rd March 2014
  #1648
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Yes I am chasing a dream. But there is no 'just' as in 'only' about it. This is where we part ways, as to you chasing a dream is 'just', and to me it is of importance.
That is not what I am saying. I am all for aspiring to realise one's dreams but there has to be a coherent logical plan to achieve that dream otherwise it is just a dream, wishful thinking.

Have you ever seen the show Dragon's Den? It is a good demonstration of how some people keep dreaming and don't do proper feasibility and market research and end up wasting all their savings (and sometimes those of others) in a pipe dream that has no chance of ever achieving success. Sure there are stories of people that no one believed in that somehow manage to prove everyone wrong and capture our imaginations but for every Google or Apple there are dozens or even thousands of failed businesses. That is the real world.

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But I DO like that ANY sort of initiative towards better sound is going on.
Even an initiative that might turn out to be detrimental to that goal?

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And no, I haven't got it backwards at all, as while I also care about the truth, in this instance I care more about the result.
That is the rub. I am not at all convinced it will achieve those results as it is based on faulty premises.

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And to me a hypothetical situation could run like so:

Consumer bites. Gets Pono player and gets some of his favourite back catalogue in 192, mastered from tape masters (with any luck, as like pointed out some 192 masters sold might just be converted up versions of previously lower rates...). Now the reality starts. This guy is used to hearing mp3's or OggVorbis files from his computer or Sonos or headphones, so assuming the Pono player has decent converters at this point one of two things happens:

He either hears no difference and feels conned, or he does and goes wow.
You do realise that in listening tests it is extremely rare that people can tell the difference between CD audio (or 192/24) and a properly encoded 320 Kbps MP3? And the few people that can tend to have extensive hearing damage which breaks the perceptual masking model MP3s are based on?

In any business it makes sense to check your assumptions and premises first to make sure you are not fooling yourself about how realistic your business plan is. In this case to me that would mean figuring out, as scientifically as possible, what it is that people do or do not perceive and secondly figure out why people are accepting "lesser" grade formats. Also, figuring out why people are actually buying less music than they used to.

The first part is what we are discussing (and some people so casually dismiss), the second part has also been discussed and it has very little to do with audio delivery formats. (No need to rehash the whole thing. There are many discussions on the subject here and elsewhere).

Also it is very important to realise that people like you, me and the artists in the Pono video are exceptions. We care deeply about music and sound but the vast majority of the public don't share that passion as much. Certainly not the part about caring about sound. Most are perfectly happy having their speakers asymetricaly placed in some corner behind a flower pot. To many the look of the room is more important than a nice stereo field coming out of their playback system. (If they even listen on speakers).

That is the reality. Ignoring that isn't the best way to start a new business IMO. Luckily by going for a portable player I think they are aware of the new listening trends. That is a plus.

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The outcome of this to me is largely dependent on what he plugs his Pono player into. If he happens to still have a reasonable hifi I reckon he'll go wow. And if he is at all interested in Pono chances are if he doesn't and CAN't hear any difference on his Sonos or whatever little device speakers he might have the awareness to try the thing on a better system before dismissing it, as after all he did buy it in the search for good sound.
That is a nice dream but I still think it is just a dream. Clearly you don't and I admire your passion. I wish I could believe in your dream too... Alas I am not convinced.

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In any case, if he hears the thing on a decent system I reckon it'll be wow, and then a few more things happen.
That is exactly what we are discussing! And the evidence we have tells us that people will not be wowed except maybe by the placebo effect. (And possibly the general playback quality of the player if it is well built).

But frankly I am quite sure that if people don't instantly get the wow effect from their headphones, they won't go out buying speakers in the hope to get the wow effect (that truly would give a completely different sonic presentation). By that time it is too late. We have already lost them for that aspect. It has to be an instant wow or there will be no wow at all... Also the wow shouldn't be the buyers bias of a new relatively expensive player. It has to last. In other words, it has to be real.

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But he will find ways to get his hands in better quality files from wherever to feed his Pono player with if he liked the experience.......and realise those 24/44.1 files sound just as good it seems, but still crucify mp3's......
The reality of listening tests tell us that they will not crucify MP3s and most engineers that bother doing a proper double blind listening test (that don't have significant hearing damage) would know this.

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and if enough people start to go like that there will be a demand never here before for better quality files. At which point perhaps the price has to come down for people to actually buy a couple as opposed to torrenting them all, or the streaming services will include them as options to download to play in offline mode, I don't know what the next step would be .........but at that point the change in the culture has already occurred!

By which time Pono might have failed and the next things are coming in, but the higher quality file is now in the mainstream.......
*sigh* It is a nice story Karloff but I don't share your optimism on this.

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before you know it people might have a reason to buy some half decent hifi speakers, like what used to be normal (not hifi snake oil type, just normal and 'beat the **** out of a Sonos in the corner") to enjoy their music on again.....
Funny you mention Hi-Fi snake oil. I think that selling higher sample rates files for delivery IS snake oil and I think trying to sell snake oil is the last way to encourage people not to buy other snake oil!

(Btw, I have a pair of Sonos speakers and they don't sound atrocious compared to a lot of stuff I've heard. They don't come close to my two other pairs of speakers but still... for what they are and their size they are not bad at all!).

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Now, how is that a bad end result?
Beautiful story.... Bzzzt Bzzzt Bzzzt! That is the sound of your alarm clock waking you up. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

It is a great end result but I don't see it happening.

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The only way that wouldn't happen is if almost all people decide they can't tell the difference and bail. Possibility. But I doubt it. Very much.
And that is where the science comes in. It tells us the difference between reality and fiction and what to expect. That is why so much of us care about the science! It doesn't just give knowledge and understanding of how things are now, it also has a great predictive power! If the Pono crew would have done their homework, they wouldn't be harking on about higher sample rates and would be focusing on other aspects like better masters and we wouldn't be having this discussion about sample rates in the first place! To me their approach is misguided and is what is causing a lot of the backlash in this thread and in other places.

Alistair
Old 23rd March 2014
  #1649
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slikjmuzik View Post
I haven't gone through all the pages, but, I don't understand this last page's discussion of high resolution formats here in the last page. Has pono unveiled what it actually does? Can you feed an mp3 and it fills in the gaps or something to make things sound better? What's the tie to high resolution formats and Pono? Just seems like the discussion is flaud to me. People are discussing the accuracy or inaccuracy of high resolution when I don't think Pono has anything to do with, does it? My basis for saying that is that upon watching the video, you hear people mentioning that Bob Dylan's Harmonica this and Aretha Franklin that, which were both done on noisy tape...so how did those 2 songs get onto the pono device and what's pono actually doing to those that were somehow transfered from either vinyl or tape to the pono device and how are car speakers able to reproduce them any better so that all those famous artists can be that impressed through a mere stock car system?

Please, someone, set me straight...
Did you watch the same video as the rest of us? The main selling point they make is about Hi-res vs CD and MP3. Not to mention Neil Young going on about Hi-Res for a few years now...

Alistair
Old 23rd March 2014
  #1650
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

sigh indeed.

This is utterly pointless. Time will tell how it pans out. You might be right. I sincerely hope not. Time to unsubscribe.
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