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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 22nd March 2014
  #1471
Quote:
Originally Posted by bogosort View Post
Shannon proves why 44.1 kHz sampling captures all the data in 20 kHz audio.
Does that then negate any evolution in bit depth, from 16 to 32bit for example?
Old 22nd March 2014
  #1472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Dude. All beefs aside. Joeq just took you for what you said.

Those were your words and his response was reasonable based on them.

If your argument is that you're happy hearing what you think you hear, then it only applies to you. Most of us in this thread are looking for some truth.

Yes. Music is mostly subjective. But when it comes to digital audio, it's all math. Math isn't usually subjective.
Is Neil Young selling PONO as an experience, or as better because of math?
I say the former, some say the latter.
Goodnight.
Old 22nd March 2014
  #1473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
I
I said, and say again, that listening to music, in fact, living your life, is a subjective thing.
People here tell me that it is not.
Read closely: NOBODY disagrees with you about the fact that music listening is subjective.

But there are FACTS about the listening experience, about the limits of human hearing, that you cannot wish or believe away.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
INeil Young has his vision.
I have mine.
You have yours.
Subjective.
Go back and read all of my posts.
That's all I've ever said when it comes to sound quality.
What you can hear or not hear is not subjective. As a matter of fact.. it can be tested!

Your enjoyment is subjective. There just are facts when it comes to human physiology as we know it that exist today. You are free to believe we don't know everything, but you're not free to make up your own facts or deny the facts that are currently known and proven.
Old 22nd March 2014
  #1474
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
The AES did this test already, and they didn't get five different opinions.

It's not subjective opinion yet. So far, in a/b/x testing nobody could tell.

Again, the entire point is to test to see if YOU or I can tell. Maybe there are outliers who CAN? Maybe you are an outlier with hearing up to 25k? You don't know until you try... belief is not knowledge.
These guys can tell the difference.....
Mix talks to four mastering engineers--Gavin Lurssen, Michael Romanowski, Joe Palmaccio and Andrew Mendelson--about music, mentoring and hi-res formats | Four mastering engineers--Gavin Lurssen, Michael Romanowski, Joe Palmaccio and Andrew Mendelson-
Old 22nd March 2014
  #1475
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post

I'm not an audiologist or a digital scientist, but I'm merely pointing out that in every other area of science, computing and digital technology we are constantly evolving, improving our knowledge and our tools. But in audio, no?
Of course we don't know everything there is to know about audio.

Even digital audio.

But you're making the mistake of assuming that because there's more to learn, that we don't already understand the things we've built.

Put it this way. We have yet to build the best car engine we can. There's definitely a better idea out there that surpasses the combustion engine.

But we do fully understand the combustion engine.
Old 22nd March 2014
  #1476
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bogosort's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
Because if you do the same test on five people and get five different results based on those people's ability to hear, it's now subjective opinion rather than Fact.
Human hearing is a variable, unless we all hear things exactly the same.
We don't.
I run a study on five people and determine that none of them could hear a difference between A and B. Interesting.

I run a study on five hundred people and determine that none of them could hear a difference between A and B. Much more interesting.

In neither case have I proven a "fact", but that doesn't make it subjective opinion either, does it? You're right that human hearing is a [random] variable. Fortunately we have very good tools for understanding what random variables tell us. As long as you have enough good data you can make good conclusions based on the statistics. This is the way the universe works!
Old 22nd March 2014
  #1477
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Sean M Robinson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
It's claimed it maxed out at the first iteration, 44.1khz/16bit.
But that's not the first iteration of digital audio, only the first affordable consumer format. And as people have been discussing here, the groundwork had been laid decades earlier.

Quote:
70mm is film, like 2" tape in the studio. Not quite the same experience.
I used this as an example of how in the case of video the earlier technology was significantly superior for a long time. You don't have to have any kind of exceptional vision to see that the 70 mm image is superior in detail to a 1080 transfer.

But that doesn't carry over to tape. Video has lagged because of bandwidth limitations, because of screen limitations, because of a whole host of technological barriers, but the difference is clear. That there's MORE information that's useful to be sampled is very very clear, whereas audio--what do you think is contained in that ultra-high frequency upper content? The video resolution is plain as day. The audio? A bunch of otherwise sheared-off super-sonic noise that your cats will be the only ones to appreciate.
Old 22nd March 2014
  #1478
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Of course we don't know everything there is to know about audio.

Even digital audio.

But you're making the mistake of assuming that because there's more to learn, that we don't already understand the things we've built.

Put it this way. We have yet to build the best car engine we can. There's definitely a better idea out there that surpasses the combustion engine.

But we do fully understand the combustion engine.
But the engine is a concrete material thing.
Music is an experience involving the human mind.
Old 22nd March 2014
  #1479
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Of course we don't know everything there is to know about audio.

Even digital audio.

But you're making the mistake of assuming that because there's more to learn, that we don't already understand the things we've built.

Put it this way. We have yet to build the best car engine we can. There's definitely a better idea out there that surpasses the combustion engine.

But we do fully understand the combustion engine.
I think you'll find us humans understand very little in this world 'fully', whatever that means. It is all goalposts we cling onto, and they are forever moving.
Old 22nd March 2014
  #1480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
Is Neil Young selling PONO as an experience, or as better because of math?
I say the former, some say the latter.
Goodnight.
He is saying it's audibly better than CD. Not about math per se, but he is making a claim that is not at all proven by science.

Health food stores are forced to pull stuff off the shelves all the time because of false claims. Why should this be any different? I'm being a bit silly, but why not? Why should he be able to make unproven claims about audio superiority that are false or aren't upheld by scientific testing?
Old 22nd March 2014
  #1481
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean M Robinson View Post
But that's not the first iteration of digital audio, only the first affordable consumer format. And as people have been discussing here, the groundwork had been laid decades earlier.



I used this as an example of how in the case of video the earlier technology was significantly superior for a long time. You don't have to have any kind of exceptional vision to see that the 70 mm image is superior in detail to a 1080 transfer.

But that doesn't carry over to tape. Video has lagged because of bandwidth limitations, because of screen limitations, because of a whole host of technological barriers, but the difference is clear. That there's MORE information that's useful to be sampled is very very clear, whereas audio--what do you think is contained in that ultra-high frequency upper content? The video resolution is plain as day. The audio? A bunch of otherwise sheared-off super-sonic noise that your cats will be the only ones to appreciate.
Never mind ultrasonics...
What about the amount of detail in the audio you can hear?
Old 22nd March 2014
  #1482
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I read that article and nobody mentioned doing a/b/x testing. They believe they can hear a difference, like you.

They don't understand expectation bias, like you.

The AES did a/b/x testing among regular people and audio engineers. No difference.

Please understand, the article above is about belief. I'm not talking about belief, I'm talking about TESTING your belief.
Old 22nd March 2014
  #1483
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
Never mind ultrasonics...
What about the amount of detail in the audio you can hear?
Please don't be willfully ignorant. There is NO detail difference. NONE.

The higher sample rate is NOT like "more dots" in digital photography.

Bit depth is ALSO not like "more dots."

NEITHER mean more resolution.

Higher sample rate means higher frequencies... ONLY.

Higher bit depth means lower noise floor... ONLY.
Old 22nd March 2014
  #1484
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean M Robinson View Post
But that's not the first iteration of digital audio, only the first affordable consumer format. And as people have been discussing here, the groundwork had been laid decades earlier.
Digital recording - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

12 bit 30khz appears to be where they started with digital audio on tape.
Old 22nd March 2014
  #1485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
He is saying it's audibly better than CD. Not about math per se, but he is making a claim that is not at all proven by science.

Health food stores are forced to pull stuff off the shelves all the time because of false claims. Why should this be any different? I'm being a bit silly, but why not? Why should he be able to make unproven claims about audio superiority that are false or aren't upheld by scientific testing?
If his claims are found to be false, his company and his credibility is screwed.
Many people have pointed out on the internet that 12000 or so people is not very many for something like this.
But, these are 12000 people that contributed to the campaign without ever hearing the device!
I think that's impressive.
They're contributing on faith.
Because they must want a device that makes their music sound better.
If it is released and people don't have the same reaction that the people in the video have, the product, the company and Neil Young's reputation are done.
Old 22nd March 2014
  #1486
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
Is Neil Young selling PONO as an experience, or as better because of math?
I say the former, some say the latter.
Goodnight.
Yes. He's selling an experience.

Much like many religions, it's not provable and the people seem to be happy.

Yay!!!
Old 22nd March 2014
  #1487
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Please don't be willfully ignorant. There is NO detail difference. NONE.

The higher sample rate is NOT like "more dots" in digital photography.

Bit depth is ALSO not like "more dots."

NEITHER mean more resolution.

Higher sample rate means higher frequencies... ONLY.

Higher bit depth means lower noise floor... ONLY.
I think these people disagree...
Mix talks to four mastering engineers--Gavin Lurssen, Michael Romanowski, Joe Palmaccio and Andrew Mendelson--about music, mentoring and hi-res formats | Four mastering engineers--Gavin Lurssen, Michael Romanowski, Joe Palmaccio and Andrew Mendelson-
Old 22nd March 2014
  #1489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Yes. He's selling an experience.

Much like many religions, it's not provable and the people seem to be happy.

Yay!!!
My point exactly.
If it makes people happy, he's delivered.
If it makes them unhappy, he's screwed.
Old 22nd March 2014
  #1490
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bogosort's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Does that then negate any evolution in bit depth, from 16 to 32bit for example?
The mathematics of PCM quantization are completely defined and understood. There is literally nothing new to learn (nor can there ever be). It's not like 32 bits was an evolution from 16 bits; once quantization was understood, any n-bit representation was understood. What can improve are techniques for dealing with noise.
Old 22nd March 2014
  #1491
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
If his claims are found to be false, his company and his credibility is screwed.
Many people have pointed out on the internet that 12000 or so people is not very many for something like this.
But, these are 12000 people that contributed to the campaign without ever hearing the device!
I think that's impressive.
They're contributing on faith.
Because they must want a device that makes their music sound better.
If it is released and people don't have the same reaction that the people in the video have, the product, the company and Neil Young's reputation are done.
Oh, his reputation is secure, because... no offense.. there are people like you around who don't understand the science.

The same people who buy $500 interconnects or $500 power cables for their home HIFI units. The same people who write on CDs with their magic markers and hear a NIGHT AND DAY difference. The same people who will purchase expensive audio gadgets that are snake oil.. because of belief.

It doesn't matter that the AES test has existed for nearly a decade that showed, so far, nobody could hear a difference in a/b/x testing.
Old 22nd March 2014
  #1492
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
But the engine is a concrete material thing.
Music is an experience involving the human mind.
We're not discussing the "music".

We're discussing the Pono player which is a concrete thing. Much like an audio file.

You can't null a musical experience with a previous one or someone else's.

You can null two audio files.
Old 22nd March 2014
  #1493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
I read that article and nobody mentioned doing a/b/x testing. They believe they can hear a difference, like you.

They don't understand expectation bias, like you.

The AES did a/b/x testing among regular people and audio engineers. No difference.

Please understand, the article above is about belief. I'm not talking about belief, I'm talking about TESTING your belief.
The Problem with A-B'ing and Why Neil Young is Right about Sound Quality. | Tape Op - the Creative Music Recording Magazine
Old 22nd March 2014
  #1494
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

I have tried to be nice and patient with you.

If you think belief trumps knowledge, more power to you. Remain willfully ignorant. If you think somehow there is more "detail" in higher sample rate audio, you are ignorant. There are facts.

Digital audio is not religion. There are known, understood truths that go against what you believe.

But you are welcome to make the snake oil salesmen rich! PT Barnum said it.. nobody has gone broke underestimating the intelligence of the American public.
Old 22nd March 2014
  #1495
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
We're not discussing the "music".

We're discussing the Pono player which is a concrete thing. Much like an audio file.

You can't null a musical experience with a previous one or someone else's.

You can null two audio files.
I thought we were discussing whether hi res music was better than 44.1.
I'm not discussing the PONO player.
I haven't heard the PONO player, so I can't discuss how the PONO player sounds, but I have a Korg MR2 (among others), which is what I based my experience on.
Old 22nd March 2014
  #1496
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
I think you'll find us humans understand very little in this world 'fully', whatever that means. It is all goalposts we cling onto, and they are forever moving.
But you're arguing in favor of admitting we know nothing and everything is subjective.

That kind of thinking and a bag of weed didn't build this industrialized world.
Old 22nd March 2014
  #1497
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Something just struck me..

Maybe Carmen is being willfully ignorant because he can't understand the science?

Carmen have you actually read enough to understand why it's technically impossible for there to be more detail or resolution in a higher sample rate or bit depth audio recording?
Old 22nd March 2014
  #1498
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
It's not his political stance, it's that the site he's publishing his theories on is avowed to counter copyright and the music industry.
sorry but unless you can connect it a reason why he would lie, that's just an ad hominem - guilt by association. It does not negate the facts in the article. I do not support the "sharing" (read "stealing") agenda, but I read the article and I found it quite solid, with zero implications for piracy, internet freedom or anything else. If he wrote an article about hummingbird migrations, I might still hate his guts, but that doesn't mean he is 'wrong' about where the hummingbirds fly for the winter.

Quote:
The format he's claiming is the best, is the same format the pirates use, and a format that would best suit Spotify, Google, Apple and any other technology company looking to make big bucks out of music
.

Seriously? I thought you had something more substantial than that. In any any case, by your own standards the Internet Freedom guy is the last person to be making common cause with Apple and Google!!! Now, go put "24/192" and "torrent" into the same search. The pirates are already stealing high-res files. Right Now! Everywhere.

Of course pirates use those lower files as well. Because that's what is mostly there. It's like saying: "bank robbers like to use internal combustion engines for their getaway cars." So anyone who says anything good about gasoline powered cars has a bank robber agenda? Let's face it - as high-res files become more popular, pirates are stealing them too.

Somewhere, right now, some bank robbers are driving away from a holdup in an electric car!

Quote:
Secondly, when someone publishes outrageous and questionable generalisations to back their political leanings, you have to call into question everything else they publish.
this is exactly what I said. You don't like the guy for other unrelated reasons. Guilt by association. By all means, question what comes from someone you dislike, but even after questioning it, I see nothing to indicate he is wrong, much less lying. The best you can come up with for a MOTIVE for him being misleading is that "pirates like 44.1"! Pirates are no different in this regard: they like the same things everybody else likes ...they just don't want to pay for it!
Old 22nd March 2014
  #1499
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
I thought we were discussing whether hi res music was better than 44.1.
Which is not a subjective topic. It's math.

The people that build our convertors don't believe in it.

Do you think the machines are outperforming their makers?

Have they become "aware"?

I think we've exhausted this. I wish you the best. Really.
Old 22nd March 2014
  #1500
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Traintrack's Avatar
 

I can hear the difference on the streaming samples on HDTracks. You cannot?
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