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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 21st March 2014
  #1351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Money

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mouth is
Old 21st March 2014
  #1352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
So, you won't participate? What do you have to lose? What are you afraid of (rhetorical as I already know... you would be embarrassed if you couldn't tell which was which).
The Problem with A-B'ing and Why Neil Young is Right about Sound Quality. | Tape Op - the Creative Music Recording Magazine
Old 21st March 2014
  #1353
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James Lehmann's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
As opposed to one digital 192k truncated down?
Doesn't this involve two steps of SRC though, because File A has to be SRC down to 44.1k and then back up to 96k for the listening stage?

The optimum would be two parallel digital systems recording the same performance which could then be AB/X'd, but the cost and practicality of doing this seems beyond my sphere of operation.
Old 21st March 2014
  #1354
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post

I would think a naked acoustic guitar would be the best test, but maybe that's not true... maybe it would be better to test a full mix?
Someone always brings up stacking or masking or whatever excuse we can use.

Because Pono is meant for finished mixes, I would think that would be best.
Old 21st March 2014
  #1355
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James Lehmann's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Because Pono is meant for finished mixes, I would think that would be best.
I agree. Let's keep the discussion to the final, stereo delivery format of a finished mix to the consumer of a recording.
Old 21st March 2014
  #1356
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

OK... you have just admitted there is no big difference. You have just admitted the difference is subtle, if it exists at all.

It is also quite clear to me by your inflated confidence in your ability to tell that you don't understand your own confirmation bias.

You also have shown a lack of intellectual curiosity... that's the fatal flaw in my book. Nobody knows everything. You should be willing to put it to the test if you are honest and thoughtful.

So that's it. Sorry Carmen you won't actually test yourself, but I completely understand your fear. The emperor might be naked...
Old 21st March 2014
  #1357
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Lehmann View Post
I agree. Let's keep the discussion to the final, stereo delivery format of a finished mix to the consumer of a recording.
Well, OK, someone else has to create the files though. I have no way of doing so, I never record at 192 or even 96.
Old 21st March 2014
  #1358
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Lehmann View Post
Doesn't this involve two steps of SRC though, because File A has to be SRC down to 44.1k and then back up to 96k for the listening stage?

The optimum would be two parallel digital systems recording the same performance which could then be AB/X'd, but the cost and practicality of doing this seems beyond my sphere of operation.
Someone can correct me if I'm wrong but going down and back up shouldn't do anything but take away any frequencies that 44.1kHz can't reproduce.

Recording two copies at the same time isn't realistic as no one mixes that way.

For CD, you mix at your sample rate (which I guess is 192kHz if you ask Neil Young) and then dither it down to 44.1kHz 16 bit.

You don't make multiple masters.

It's the dithering down part that turns the magic into rubber bands.

But I agree that analog tape is the way to go if analog was used throughout.
Old 21st March 2014
  #1359
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Well, OK, someone else has to create the files though. I have no way of doing so, I never record at 192 or even 96.
I wish there was a forum where we could find a mastering engineer with a high quality analog recording somewhere.
Old 21st March 2014
  #1360
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
OK... you have just admitted there is no big difference. You have just admitted the difference is subtle, if it exists at all.

It is also quite clear to me by your inflated confidence in your ability to tell that you don't understand your own confirmation bias.

You also have shown a lack of intellectual curiosity... that's the fatal flaw in my book. Nobody knows everything. You should be willing to put it to the test if you are honest and thoughtful.

So that's it. Sorry Carmen you won't actually test yourself, but I completely understand your fear. The emperor might be naked...
You put words in my mouth.
I never said any of those things.
Which is why I would never trust you in such a test.
Old 21st March 2014
  #1361
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
OK... you have just admitted there is no big difference. You have just admitted the difference is subtle, if it exists at all.

It is also quite clear to me by your inflated confidence in your ability to tell that you don't understand your own confirmation bias.

You also have shown a lack of intellectual curiosity... that's the fatal flaw in my book. Nobody knows everything. You should be willing to put it to the test if you are honest and thoughtful.

So that's it. Sorry Carmen you won't actually test yourself, but I completely understand your fear. The emperor might be naked...
The Problem with A-B'ing and Why Neil Young is Right about Sound Quality. | Tape Op - the Creative Music Recording Magazine
This is why your test is pointless.
Just read it.
Old 21st March 2014
  #1362
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baslotto's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
One client is keen to emphasize they don't care about loudness and they don't want any brickwall/look-ahead limiting. Maybe it's an anomaly. We'll see. But the Pono publicity seems to have affected them pretty heavy.
Nope it's just this video that went on Facebook a few days ago.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAB_...ature=youtu.be
Old 21st March 2014
  #1363
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James Lehmann's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
I'm backing the PONO project. I will be pleased to enter debate about sound quality once PONO's version of the music is heard by all who are interested this fall. I sure won't be devoting any weight to this discussion here.

It's very clear to me that 192 (and higher) sample rates make a fantastic difference in sound quality, realism and listenability.

I have been recording hi-res since 1995.
Dear Plush,

A number of us here are very interested to see if we can hear what you hear.

But we lack the kind of high-resolution, high quality 24/192k source material that you probably record every day!

Is there any chance you could help us out with an old clip of something (out of copyright) that you've recorded at that resolution, so we can test it out for ourselves?

Thanks a lot,

James & other interested Gearslutz
Old 21st March 2014
  #1364
higher resolution audio files = large file sizes = not as convenient to illegally download.

consumers want everything in HD anyway. If this thing is marketed right it'll blow up and buying music in high resolution will become a norm. Just imagine if the big boys like Apple and Samsung jumped on the HD audio thing. The only reason HD audio isn't big right now is because the playback mediums are too pricy and complicated for the average joe. People now days want everything to be convenient and easy. Thats what Pono will be doing.

On a side note, why are audio people so damn cynical?
Old 21st March 2014
  #1365
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This website has DSD downloads for people to sample.
Blue Coast Records | Exceptional Acoustic Recordings
Anyone can use Korg's free AudioGate software to convert DSD to any PCM bit/sample rate.
AudioGate - Download -
Old 21st March 2014
  #1366
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave.R View Post
as i said in an earlier post, the concept of the album is the result of technology, namely vinyl
Often great art can be the result of technological limitations...

My view on all this: Today, with digital downloads, artists have the choice to do anything from 5 second tracks all the way to 4 hour epics if they are so inclined. Great!

Alistair
Old 21st March 2014
  #1367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Often great art can be the result of technological limitations...

My view on all this: Today, with digital downloads, artists have the choice to do anything from 5 second tracks all the way to 4 hour epics if they are so inclined. Great!

Alistair
i'm not calling it a limitation, rather, a convenient container that should not be recycled

couldn't agree more on your view
Old 21st March 2014
  #1368
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
No. Buy it yourself.
Why do you keep talking about up sampling?
Why would anyone downsample, then upsample?
What does that have to do with anything in this thread!
Because that is the proper way to test the differences (if any). It excludes bad converter implementation from the equation.

Alistair
Old 21st March 2014
  #1369
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
It sounds stupid to me.
That is because you have a very severe case of the Dunning-Kruger effect:



Alistair
Old 21st March 2014
  #1370
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
Do you honestly believe your average listener compares files this way?

...

In the real world, no one will upsample to rule out the converter.
In the real world people know which sample rate they are listening to which introduces expectation bias and placebo effect. When you want to test whether you can truly hear a difference, you have to narrow things down. Hence the down/up sampling scenario. That is how science is done. Anything else is just fooling yourself.

Alistair
Old 21st March 2014
  #1371
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UnderTow's Avatar
That is just someone denying the science because it goes against his beliefs. That is audio creationism.

Alistair
Old 21st March 2014
  #1372
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post

It was never released as a single I believe, either in the UK or USA.
it was not, but the radio play in effect made it a single
Old 21st March 2014
  #1373
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
BTW - I wonder why your units don't go to 192kHz.

I believe Lavry's don't because he doesn't see the point.
I believe all the newer Lavry converters except the Golds do go up to 192Khz if clocked from an external source. To me this shows great integrity: Lavry could just jump on the marketing hype like everyone else as his converters already do 192Khz but consciously chooses not to. I wish more manufacturers had such integrity.

Alistair
Old 21st March 2014
  #1374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
If I buy a track it's the one that offers me instant gratification. the other tracks I never go back to, because by then we're all on to the next ep release..
if i buy a track i go back and listen to others because now i want more gratification

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Equal exposure?

Only if they're equally "radio type" songs.

The "album" cuts would sink the artist.
see the above

if people find and buy a pair of sneakers that provide the comfort and style they want, they note the brand and go back for more later
Old 21st March 2014
  #1375
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Lehmann View Post
Doesn't this involve two steps of SRC though, because File A has to be SRC down to 44.1k and then back up to 96k for the listening stage?

The optimum would be two parallel digital systems recording the same performance which could then be AB/X'd, but the cost and practicality of doing this seems beyond my sphere of operation.
I think both approaches are valid but there is one issue with doing parallel recordings: Some converters do actually sound different at different sample rates. Not because they can't sound the same at different sample rates but because the manufacturers cut corners or intentionally made one sample rate sound better than another.

For me the down/up sample test is the first step. It excludes the converters and other issues from the equation. Once we have determined that there is no sonic difference between the different formats (and it becomes a widely accepted truth) it puts pressure on manufacturers to get the best out of their converters at the base rate and let's say 88.2 and 96 Khz.

Btw, in this test, it is very important to use a high quality sample rate converter. Not all SRCs are made equal. I would suggest the iZotope sample rate converter or the SoX converter.

Alistair
Old 21st March 2014
  #1376
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
This website has DSD downloads for people to sample.
Blue Coast Records | Exceptional Acoustic Recordings
Anyone can use Korg's free AudioGate software to convert DSD to any PCM bit/sample rate.
AudioGate - Download -
The Korg AudioGate SRC aliases significantly. It is not a good enough sample rate converter in my book. Even the free SoX converter does a better job.

EDIT: Unfortunately SoX and most other SRCs don't do DSD so they can't be used to convert those files. Also you can't use the Korg SRC to 192 Khz and do the rest with another SRC because, as the Korg SRC aliases, there will already be some aliasing down in the audible band even when converting down to 192Khz. Korg's SRC might be one reason people buy the DSD hype. The people that own it never get to hear what their recorded DSD streams would sound like at lower rates without aliasing distortion...

Alistair
Old 21st March 2014
  #1377
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by auralart View Post
higher resolution audio files = large file sizes = not as convenient to illegally download.
Not really these days. 150 Mbit/s into my home. 30 Mbit/s on my mobile phone and speeds just keep going up... (Every so often my providers up the rates free of charge just to stay competitive with each other...)

Alistair
Old 21st March 2014
  #1378
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gavriloP's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave.R View Post
if people find and buy a pair of sneakers that provide the comfort and style they want, they note the brand and go back for more later
This anecdote shows again where are your shortcomings when it comes to merits of album format. Band or "brand" as in your anecdote that does albums has wider selection of different songs or "shoes". With singles market you are just going for "sneakers". But album can show you that this band also has boots and whatnots. From single brand you'd just expect more sneakers...

I know this is getting stupid and I wonder why I bother but still:

as I said previously, with album you have bigger arc and can have more different style of songs like ballads, atmospheric pieces or some complex epics amnog the single "hits". There is a big importance in which order the songs are on album and also their styles are tied to songs around them. They are NOT just compilations of songs. At least if they are good "albums".

It is just that your opinion about irrelevance of album as an artform is somehow not realistic considering there have been millions of album listeners since the artform was born. It really started in the 60s. Originally most records were just compilations of artist's former singles but then came Donovan, Beatles and the rest and the beauty of album was born. It is actually pretty similar to printing press. It took centuries for novel as a form to born even though only thing it needed was that possibility of printing. Think about it.

Your view about succesful artist being just someone with a strong line of singles is totally wrong. Back in the golden era of albums, those singles and that radio promotion was just marketing for album. People who liked artists like Queen or Peter Gabriel or any "band" listened to their records. Only casual listener would say: "oh I like Queen because I listen to them on radio".

And one more thing about "one-hit-wonders": from global media point of view it might seem that this is the case with many artists, say someone like Chris Isaak (one of my favourite artists BTW). He had his Wicked Game and "one of his other songs" was on a Kubrick soundtrack. But fact is that he's had huge career of way over 30 years, about ten of those happened BEFORE Wicked Game. And he have constantly made albums, toured around the world, had two tv shows, acted and just been a good old star. Wicked Game is still a standard on his setlist but it is more of a ball and chain. Only casual members of audience come for that song, most listeners want the whole repertoire. Point is that albums and touring kept Isaak alive, not Wicked Game.
Old 21st March 2014
  #1379
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Last edited by diggo; 21st March 2014 at 12:00 PM.. Reason: post accidentally
Old 21st March 2014
  #1380
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Not really these days. 150 Mbit/s into my home. 30 Mbit/s on my mobile phone and speeds just keep going up... (Every so often my providers up the rates free of charge just to stay competitive with each other...)

Alistair
150mb/s can get pricy. At least in the Pasadena, CA area where I live. I pay $70 a month for 25mb/s.
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