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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 20th March 2014
  #1231
Gear Addict
One more note about pricing: right now I can BUY, not just RENT, major new movie downloads from Amazon, in glorious Hi-Def, for under $20. What makes the labels think anybody will pay more than that for an album?

Cheers,
Eddie
Old 20th March 2014
  #1232
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
This is an important point. The one thing that services like iTunes do over stealing is add value to the sale. If my computer crashes, I can get all my purchased music back tomorrow. Including all my playlists and organization in iTunes. I own these songs forever.

Adding high res (BS or not) would make it that much more attractive. Especially since they would have the jump on the illegal sites. For a bit. And they'e attracting the fans that can afford to pay. They're the ones who care about fidelity.

People don't realize what a big deal it was for iTunes to get the Beatles collection. Sales were up across the board because of it.
Match is a great itunes service too. I really enjoy having my apple TV hooked up to my receiver and I can access all my music right from that device, can also access my wifes library as well. Apple radio is really enjoyable too, they have a great algorithm for selecting songs.

I enjoy going to down music rabbit holes of "listeners also bought" in the itunes store as well. Found some cool music that way.
Old 20th March 2014
  #1233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
That's the problem with popular music in a nutshell.

Creating a song that is interesting and different while getting people to like it in 30 seconds or less.
shall we name some great classical composers who have done just that?

i know quite a few

so...what's wrong with that?
Old 20th March 2014
  #1234
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie TX View Post
One more note about pricing: right now I can BUY, not just RENT, major new movie downloads from Amazon, in glorious Hi-Def, for under $20. What makes the labels think anybody will pay more than that for an album?

Cheers,
Eddie
Well albums cost more than making a movie does, err....
Old 20th March 2014
  #1235
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
If 44.1kHz 16 bit is sufficient, we can just use our phones. Or are you arguing that we need better D/A conversion.



That would have been great but unfortunately we never progressed into making high end analog affordable. The last Studer made was their most expensive. Even the early digital recorders were crazy expensive.

At this point (and probably forever) digital is the best bang for your buck.

It still amazes me why some company can't figure out how to make an analog tape based front end for digital recording.

You'd make a fortune.
Kenny, I think you can use your phones, however I suppose I am suggesting that better DA converters are a bonus. Your last point I 100% agree with, the next person to create a fully analog tape deck with modern equipment that addresses known quality/build issues with consumer decks, that prices it respectfully will make a huge fortune. From pro-sumer decks to professional decks, if someone can have a fully serviceable unit that has modern components that can be replaced by any experienced DIY or technician, that can be calibrated at ease right from the unit (a simple oscillator/signal generator built in will do) one would indeed make a fortune. it can also be a barebone system... but one that is new, has warranty, and has parts and components that are easily source-able, would create a huge stir in today's market.

EddieTX, bandcamp is great and my band will certainly be using their service (and at less than 192/24 as i recorded it in 48/24 and mastered for CD at 44.1/16), but competition breeds better results MORE bandcamp-ish services the merrier I say. Especially for DIY musicians/composers/artists/engineers...

As for other products, sure they do exist. I currently use my iPod sparingly (believe it or not) mainly for playlists at parties and other similar events. I listen to vinyl (recently played Pet Sounds for a friend who had never heard it, and his mind was blown "this is the Beach Boys?!"). My iPod/phone does not play high quality FLAC files... and $300 is not a problem for me... and considering I already have high-capacity SD cards the Pono player is pretty cool

jasonwagner - while i currently do exactly what you described, i'd rather keep the compression and down-sampling to a minimum. If anything I could do my own Pono tests with my bandmates and friends... see which format/sampling sounds better yet again, for $300 I think my desire to audition mixes in various environments (without changing the resolution of the file) will be more than enough to last the duration of my career.

The overarching problem with Pono Music is its storefront, the player itself is a neat step up from standard mp3 players... if not for its file format capabilities, then for the upgraded audio components. Better gear = Better sound, or at least in most cases... All in all, if someone didn't have an mp3 player, why not invest in an mp3/wav/flac player? if there are better ones out there for less money, vote with your wallet!

The Pono player will be my very own portable Mix player... if nothing else.
Old 20th March 2014
  #1236
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by orenradio View Post
Kenny, I think you can use your phones, however I suppose I am suggesting that better DA converters are a bonus. Your last point I 100% agree with, the next person to create a fully analog tape deck with modern equipment that addresses known quality/build issues with consumer decks, that prices it respectfully will make a huge fortune. From pro-sumer decks to professional decks, if someone can have a fully serviceable unit that has modern components that can be replaced by any experienced DIY or technician, that can be calibrated at ease right from the unit (a simple oscillator/signal generator built in will do) one would indeed make a fortune. it can also be a barebone system... but one that is new, has warranty, and has parts and components that are easily source-able, would create a huge stir in today's market.
No doubt. But I'd have to think if it was possible to be done, someone would have already done it. Right?
Old 20th March 2014
  #1237
I listen to very hi res files all the time.

Miles Davis at 192k

Classical

I love it
Old 20th March 2014
  #1238
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
No doubt. But I'd have to think if it was possible to be done, someone would have already done it. Right?
Someone should create an analog deck that is the form factor of an ADAT... uses cartridges, syncable with a single cable, etc. Price it at $5k and I'm guessing you'd sell a ton.

I know Akai's 1214 was similar... way back when. But I think people would dig it. No idea if it's feasible.
Old 20th March 2014
  #1239
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave.R View Post
shall we name some great classical composers who have done just that?

i know quite a few

so...what's wrong with that?
C'mon man, you're just arguing to be contrary now.
It's just a no brainer that great music doesn't always sell itself in 30 seconds. And i think it's everyone's experience that songs grow in appeal over time. I clearly remember completely hating side two of an album. A year later I'm loving it and not listening to side one very much.
You're conflating my point with the concept of listening to an entire album all the way through. I'm not saying that.
I'm saying when you buy an album you are presented with around 12 songs. Your favourite songs off the album often changes over time. But if you only ever bought your immediate favourites, you'll never get to experience and enjoy the other songs that were sold in the same package.
In short….
I get the advantages of buying single songs. Maybe the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, but it's just not true to claim there are no negatives to the single song download.
Old 20th March 2014
  #1240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasonwagner View Post
Well albums cost more than making a movie does, err....
... I assume yer joking?
Old 21st March 2014
  #1241
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Salty James's Avatar
So people slam increasing the digital fidelity and then start discussing bringing back tape machines?
Can't say I'm surprised.
Ya know, this GD site is like a frickin' fairy candy land dream world..

Tape!
Dude said tape and everyone goes, "Yeah, tape!!"

It is funny though that even an old crumudgeon like Neil Young is still more hip than the typical "Audio Engineer" on Gears***z.. (now COME ON!! - How can you censor your own name??)




fa la la la laaaa... la la la la la - lalaaaa...
Old 21st March 2014
  #1242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave.R View Post
yeah. but how often do you listen to them front to back? that's my point (or one point). more often, you probably pick and choose songs
It's a different way of listening.. for me it's reserved for long drives/etc as time permits. Why does it have to be either/or?
Old 21st March 2014
  #1243
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty James View Post
So people slam increasing the digital fidelity and then start discussing bringing back tape machines?
Again... why either/or? I don't want tape because it specs better... I want it because some things sound cool recorded on tape.
Old 21st March 2014
  #1244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
C'mon man, you're just arguing to be contrary now.
It's just a no brainer that great music doesn't always sell itself in 30 seconds. And i think it's everyone's experience that songs grow in appeal over time. I clearly remember completely hating side two of an album. A year later I'm loving it and not listening to side one very much.
You're conflating my point with the concept of listening to an entire album all the way through. I'm not saying that.
I'm saying when you buy an album you are presented with around 12 songs. Your favourite songs off the album often changes over time. But if you only ever bought your immediate favourites, you'll never get to experience and enjoy the other songs that were sold in the same package.
In short….
I get the advantages of buying single songs. Maybe the advantages outweigh the disadvantages, but it's just not true to claim there are no negatives to the single song download.
And it's better from an artist point of view to suck you in with one or two songs and close the deal with the rest of the record. Now you're a fan of the act. Not just the song.

Plus, the labels prefer it as well. It's more profitable and easy to manage one artist selling one album than twelve artists selling a single song.

Career artists are easier to market.
Old 21st March 2014
  #1245
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty James View Post
So people slam increasing the digital fidelity and then start discussing bringing back tape machines?
Can't say I'm surprised.
Ya know, this GD site is like a frickin' fairy candy land dream world..
That's because you're not paying attention.

No one is slamming high quality recordings or even a high quality finished master.

We're slamming the idea that 192kHz is the answer.
Old 21st March 2014
  #1246
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Again... why either/or? I don't want tape because it specs better... I want it because some things sound cool recorded on tape.
Because if you don't pick a side, how can I ridicule your opinion to make myself feel better about mine?
Old 21st March 2014
  #1247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
C'mon man, you're just arguing to be contrary now.
it probably does seems that way, but really i just have such a distaste for this idea that "the album is the only way"

Quote:
It's just a no brainer that great music doesn't always sell itself in 30 seconds. And i think it's everyone's experience that songs grow in appeal over time.
i don't disagree. sometimes great music takes time to grow on us. but more often great music hits us right out of the gate

Quote:
it's just not true to claim there are no negatives to the single song download.
ok, i'll agree with you on that, but in this day and age it's soooo easy to go back and buy the rest of "the album" later. there is no need or reason to buy "the album" right away

again, the album concept is dated and has no real relation to music as art
Old 21st March 2014
  #1248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
And it's better from an artist point of view to suck you in with one or two songs and close the deal with the rest of the record. Now you're a fan of the act. Not just the song.

Plus, the labels prefer it as well. It's more profitable and easy to manage one artist selling one album than twelve artists selling a single song.

Career artists are easier to market.
thanks for discussing with me indirectly

NOT!
Old 21st March 2014
  #1249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
It's a different way of listening.. for me it's reserved for long drives/etc as time permits. Why does it have to be either/or?
it's does not have to be either/or. that is not my argument

it can be both/and

so, why do some argue the "album" is the only way? silly...and nothing to do with great music
Old 21st March 2014
  #1250
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave.R View Post
but in this day and age it's soooo easy to go back and buy the rest of "the album" later. there is no need or reason to buy "the album" right away
Of course. In this day and age, you have the benefit of hearing all the songs before you buy them. Something I couldn't do back when I was buying vinyl.

And no returns.

I agree that the album as a package could be considered arbitrary, but my experience has been much more moving for albums then it was for singles or 45s as it was.

I had no connection with the artist when I bought single songs. It was about the song. Albums were more of an experience.

Plus, it was a great documentation of where an artist was at the time.

All of Elton John songs can't be thrown on a greatest hits record with out sounding confusing. He had stages. As did U2, the Stones and Rush.
Old 21st March 2014
  #1251
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Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave.R View Post
thanks for discussing with me indirectly

NOT!
I'm not clear on what you're saying. Was it supposed to be addressed to you?
Old 21st March 2014
  #1252
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave.R View Post
so, why do some argue the "album" is the only way? silly...and nothing to do with great music
I really don't understand your complaint.

Some albums stand up better as a complete work.

Some are collections of singles.

Some have music that only works in context IMHO...

Some have great individual songs and it doesn't matter.

Who is saying there is only one way?? Who are you arguing with?
Old 21st March 2014
  #1253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
I agree that the album as a package could be considered arbitrary, but my experience has been much more moving for albums then it was for singles or 45s as it was.
an album is not music, it's a compilation, individual songs played back to back. i believe you were moved by the contents of that compilation

Quote:
I had no connection with the artist when I bought single songs.
you honestly had zero connection to the artist when listening to one song?

Quote:
Albums were more of an experience.
so a single song is a lesser experience than the album concept?

i think millions, even billions, of people would beg to differ. consider... "our song is playing" or "that song gave me kept me going" or "we will, we will rock you"

Quote:
Plus, it was a great documentation of where an artist was at the time.
that and this:

Quote:
All of Elton John songs can't be thrown on a greatest hits record with out sounding confusing. He had stages. As did U2, the Stones and Rush.
...are what musicologists do for a living
Old 21st March 2014
  #1254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
I'm not clear on what you're saying. Was it supposed to be addressed to you?
ok then, nevermind
Old 21st March 2014
  #1255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
I really don't understand your complaint.

Who is saying there is only one way?? Who are you arguing with?
seriously?

the whole music industry still revolves on this idea that bands/artists need to put out albums

you are not legit until you issue an album
Old 21st March 2014
  #1256
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave.R View Post
seriously?

the whole music industry still revolves on this idea that bands/artists need to put out albums

you are not legit until you issue an album
You can also sell individual downloads if you want. You can sell an EP. You can do whatever you want. Again, I really don't get the complaint.

Digital Distribution, How to Get Music on iTunes

Notice.. they offer options for singles as well as albums.

Notice.. there are many other options for distributing individual songs as well. Not sure CD Baby offers it, but clearly there are ways.

I still think an album is a more moving art form, and as a creator, I think it's a more challenging and more rewarding platform. BUT.. the choice is yours... why do you think it's not so??
Old 21st March 2014
  #1257
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave.R View Post
it probably does seems that way, but really i just have such a distaste for this idea that "the album is the only way"
hello. No one is saying 'the album is the only way'. I think a couple of us are pointing out some obvious downsides to single song sales. Simply that's it.


Quote:
ok, i'll agree with you on that, but in this day and age it's soooo easy to go back and buy the rest of "the album" later. there is no need or reason to buy "the album" right away
But you often have no inclination to do that. I certainly never have.
But if you've paid for something (ten songs instead of one) you have the incentive to at least try and appreciate the other nine songs.
I mean this has just happened to me so many times it's not funny.
Old 21st March 2014
  #1258
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave.R View Post
seriously?

the whole music industry still revolves on this idea that bands/artists need to put out albums

you are not legit until you issue an album
Never heard that before. The whole industry is based on single songs - aka iTunes, Beatport etc, etc…
If bands/artists still want to release a package of songs at one time, what's wrong with that? You still get to buy the hit single only if that's what floats your boat.
Old 21st March 2014
  #1259
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gavriloP's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave.R View Post
an album is not music, it's a compilation, individual songs played back to back. i believe you were moved by the contents of that compilation
This is where you are wrong. Albums are not just songs in a row. Which songs goes after another isn't random. Albums have structure like all art narratives (films, books etc.). And I am not talking about theme albums but your regular albums. They have beginning and the end and there is room for ballads, ambiences and and artsy fartsy epics that wouldn't ever happen with singles only. The point is that album can be like a symphony but song just simply can't.

It is actually same thing in classical music, single song represents those favourite classical themes lifted from symphonies and concertos but would you rather listen Beethoven's Ode for Joy or the whole 9th?

I'd say there's place for both.
Old 21st March 2014
  #1260
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave.R View Post
an album is not music, it's a compilation, individual songs played back to back. i believe you were moved by the contents of that compilation
But they connected with each other and gave you a "feeling".

It's hard to have a feeling for 3 minutes. Much more powerful when it lasts almost an hour.

I have great memories of listening to Replacements records in college. But not many of listening to one song.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave.R View Post
you honestly had zero connection to the artist when listening to one song?
When I bought a 45 record, it was because I liked that song. If I liked the artist, I bought the album.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave.R View Post
so a single song is a lesser experience than the album concept?
IMHO yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave.R View Post
i think millions, even billions, of people would beg to differ. consider... "our song is playing" or "that song gave me kept me going" or "we will, we will rock you"
But most of those songs were from albums that they owned.
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