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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 17th March 2014
  #931
Quote:
Originally Posted by O.F.F. View Post
But that would be just copying Apple since your own name engraved on your ipod has been a no cost option for many years now as long as you order it online from the Apple Store.
Yep, and the main point behind that is to make the product unreturnable unless defective. It's genius, from a marketing standpoint.
Old 17th March 2014
  #932
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O.F.F.'s Avatar
 

Returning my ipod has never occurred to me. I've bought it in '06 and still use it every day.
Old 17th March 2014
  #933
So, a new innovation is called for... a screen with swirling colors embedded in the device, where you can input your name, David Crosby's name, or the message of your choice... your own personal roving bumper sticker!
Old 17th March 2014
  #934
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noiseflaw's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqye View Post
.

This whole thread cracks me up.

All of the sudden Neil Young is some grand master sonic genius.

To begin with, Neil Young is basically a tone deaf weasel.

And now, after blasting his ears off touring for almost a century squawking and screeching his way around the world with his perpetually out of tune guitar and voice - if friggin' Neil Young can tell the difference between a broken car horn wrapped in a wool blanket and a dead frog falling into a toilet bowl, I'll eat my own ****.

Can you say ridiculous...I know you could!

.
Made me laugh!

Perhaps it shouldn't.
Old 17th March 2014
  #935
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skira's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitecat View Post
Yep, and the main point behind that is to make the product unreturnable unless defective.
Is that the "main point" behind all engraving options (jewelry, towels, robes, scarves, bookmarks, belts, watches, keychains, business card cases, frames, vases, drinkware, any gifts) or just Apple?
Old 17th March 2014
  #936
Quote:
Originally Posted by skira View Post
Is that the "main point" behind all engraving options (jewelry, towels, robes, scarves, bookmarks, belts, watches, keychains, business card cases, frames, vases, drinkware, any gifts) or just Apple?
It not only makes it impossible to return, but it significantly devalues resale. A win-win for Apple.
Old 17th March 2014
  #937
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skira's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitecat View Post
It not only makes it impossible to return
Wrong.

Completely and utterly.

When Apple first started engraving iPods (in 2004, I think) they had a policy that they were not returnable unless defective, but that was rescinded many years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitecat View Post
but it significantly devalues resale.
Oh, like jewelry, towels, robes, scarves, bookmarks, belts, watches, keychains, business card cases, frames, vases, drinkware, any gifts

How devious those towel-sellers and Apple are.
Old 17th March 2014
  #938
Quote:
Originally Posted by skira View Post
Wrong.

Completely and utterly.

When Apple first started engraving iPods (in 2004, I think) they had a policy that they were not returnable unless defective, but that was rescinded many years ago.
Sales Policies - Apple Store (UK)
Attached Thumbnails
Launch of Pono-screen-shot-2014-03-17-13.45.03.png  
Old 17th March 2014
  #939
Quote:
Originally Posted by skira View Post
Oh, like jewelry, towels, robes, scarves, bookmarks, belts, watches, keychains, business card cases, frames, vases, drinkware, any gifts

How devious those towel-sellers and Apple are.
Who ever resells personalised giftware?? It's well known that even diamonds have very little resale value. That's totally a red herring. This is technology that goes through a defined and planned upgrade cycle. When my iPad is obsolete, I want a new one. If it's engraved with something silly and personal it's going to be a lot harder to sell than it already is.
Old 17th March 2014
  #940
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skira's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitecat View Post
That sucks. But that wording doesn't seem to exist for US sales, and I know a person who got a(n extra) iPad last year, engraved, which she was able to return.

Sales Policies - Apple Store (U.S.)

https://www.apple.com/legal/sales-su...retail_us.html
Old 17th March 2014
  #941
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skira's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitecat View Post
If it's engraved with something silly and personal it's going to be a lot harder to sell than it already is.
Not really. An old iPad that's engraved will only sell for a couple of dollars less on ebay, hardly "a lot harder."

(EDIT: Just did a US sold-items ebay search on "engraved ipod" - 232 results for the last 90 days.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitecat View Post
Who ever resells personalised giftware?? It's well known that even diamonds have very little resale value. That's totally a red herring.
Talk about red herrings. I never mentioned diamonds, I said 'jewelry' amongst many other categories of items that have been engraved for years or centuries before the introduction of the iPod.
Old 17th March 2014
  #942
Quote:
Originally Posted by skira View Post
That sucks. But that wording doesn't seem to exist for US sales, and I know a person who got a(n extra) iPad last year, engraved, which she was able to return.

Sales Policies - Apple Store (U.S.)

https://www.apple.com/legal/sales-su...retail_us.html
Well, it may be different over there - perhaps some overarching law of the land that under US law they are required to accept returns on that stuff now for some reason?

I wonder if anyone's ever bought a refurb unit that says 'TO HONEY BOO BOO LOVE MOMMA 10/11/08' or something equally silly... heh
Old 17th March 2014
  #943
Gear Guru
 
Kenny Gioia's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitecat View Post
If it's engraved with something silly and personal it's going to be a lot harder to sell than it already is.
Oh shoot.

I just bought one and had it engraved with all of the video's testimonials.

heh heh heh
Old 17th March 2014
  #944
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitecat View Post
Well, it may be different over there - perhaps some overarching law of the land that under US law they are required to accept returns on that stuff now for some reason?

I wonder if anyone's ever bought a refurb unit that says 'TO HONEY BOO BOO LOVE MOMMA 10/11/08' or something equally silly... heh
Old 17th March 2014
  #945
Quote:
Originally Posted by skira View Post
Not really. An old iPad that's engraved will only sell for a couple of dollars less on ebay, hardly "a lot harder."
I see about a £40 difference on average on eBay here between a good condition boxed iPad 2 and an engraved iPad 2.
Old 17th March 2014
  #946
Quote:
Originally Posted by skira View Post

Talk about red herrings. I never mentioned diamonds, I said 'jewelry' amongst many other categories of items that have been engraved for years or centuries before the introduction of the iPod.
None of which have upgrade cycles and product refreshes!
Old 17th March 2014
  #947
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitecat View Post
I see about a £40 difference on average on eBay here between a good condition boxed iPad 2 and an engraved iPad 2.
So you don't know the difference between 'cheaper' and 'harder.'

No one argues that engraved items sell for less. But let's not forget that this particular exchange began because you claimed "the main point" for offering engravings, which has nothing to do with this. In America we call that 'moving the goalposts.'
Old 17th March 2014
  #948
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skira's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitecat View Post
None of which have upgrade cycles and product refreshes!
Irrelevant to your claimed "main point" or sub-point about resales being "a lot harder."
Old 17th March 2014
  #949
Quote:
Originally Posted by skira View Post
Irrelevant to your claimed "main point" or sub-point about resales being "a lot harder."
I know from your forum history that you can't bear lose an argument (I didn't even know there was one until you declared me 'utterly wrong' on a point I was actually 'quite right' on). I think you're just talking semantics in order to be "right."

My argument was that engraving products for free is not the altruistic gesture it seems. Nothing any company does is but this one is especially interesting because it's an emotional thing that actually provides some huge advantages to the company doing it for the relatively low cost of doing it. And that actually applies to anything and everything that can be engraved, especially when said service is offered 'free'.

Third party sources: http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...googlenews_wsj

http://consumerist.com/2008/05/08/fr...its-defective/

http://consumerist.com/2008/12/09/fr...n-this-sucker/

(See the part in the WSJ article where Sony has said that since adding free engraving they have saved a million dollars? - yes, it's a 'side benefit' but if you think other companies aren't going to emulate that... Apple knows what they are doing!)

Difficulty can be interpreted as either time or money, in my world. Maybe not in yours. I'll leave it here, we're too far off topic now anyway, but I'm sure you'll get a brilliant last word in.
Old 17th March 2014
  #950
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Well, I'm all for better audio all round, and network bandwidth and storage has become cheaper, so why not get back to CD quality, or even better?

I still think $17 is insane for a non-physical reissued album and the suits are delusional.

If it looks anywhere near like it's gonna work, I think Apple will upgrade the DAC in all their new hardware offerings, then probably offer ANOTHER upgrade ( remember those iTunes plus upgrades? ) to your music library using iTunes match since it's nice and easy, probably for a lot less money.

Pono dead.

ta-da!

If you want to hear what this stuff sounds like for yourself, grab a sampler album from HD Tracks, then listen to the FLAC via your 96 or 192 capable D/A which you probably have laying around as a recording type person. It sounds pretty much like that, unless the new Pono HW blows you as well I can't see the fuss. Maybe it WILL be the catalyst for better consumer audio. Hope so.
Old 17th March 2014
  #951
Quote:
Originally Posted by adam_w View Post
Well, I'm all for better audio all round, and network bandwidth and storage has become cheaper, so why not get back to CD quality, or even better?

I still think $17 is insane for a non-physical reissued album and the suits are delusional.

If it looks anywhere near like it's gonna work, I think Apple will upgrade the DAC in all their new hardware offerings, then probably offer ANOTHER upgrade ( remember those iTunes plus upgrades? ) to your music library using iTunes match since it's nice and easy, probably for a lot less money.

Pono dead.

ta-da!

If you want to hear what this stuff sounds like for yourself, grab a sampler album from HD Tracks, then listen to the FLAC via your 96 or 192 capable D/A which you probably have laying around as a recording type person. It sounds pretty much like that, unless the new Pono HW blows you as well I can't see the fuss. Maybe it WILL be the catalyst for better consumer audio. Hope so.
Yeah, I have been wondering if Apple adding a better DAC + FLAC support would kill this. But then I wonder if Apple is just going to kill the iPod entirely rather than waste resources trying to bother 'improving' it for such a limited share of their revenue.
Old 17th March 2014
  #952
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skira's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitecat View Post
Difficulty can be interpreted as either time or money, in my world. Maybe not in yours. I'll leave it here, we're too far off topic now anyway, but I'm sure you'll get a brilliant last word in.
Ok. In your world I give you a 9.2 for verbal gymnastics, snark division.

The main point to engraving is to personalize and make more emotionally resonant an item (esp a gift), even items that will break, lose value or become technologically deprecated. Apple doesn't care how much an iPod resells for, and (in the US at least) they don't care if you return an engraved item. The idea that "the main point behind" Apple offering engraving for a decade has been to eliminate the 14-day return policy for engraved items is absurd, risible in the extreme.
Old 17th March 2014
  #953
Gear Addict
 
adam_w's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitecat View Post
Yeah, I have been wondering if Apple adding a better DAC + FLAC support would kill this. But then I wonder if Apple is just going to kill the iPod entirely rather than waste resources trying to bother 'improving' it for such a limited share of their revenue.

Exactly - to me, ipods & "just music" players are redundant in the grand scheme at this point, I'm talking about phones & tablets with a better DAC. The chip pono uses is like $40, but I'm sure it isn't if you buy 6 million of them!
Old 17th March 2014
  #954
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noiseflaw's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitecat View Post
Yeah, I have been wondering if Apple adding a better DAC + FLAC support would kill this. But then I wonder if Apple is just going to kill the iPod entirely rather than waste resources trying to bother 'improving' it for such a limited share of their revenue.
Interesting point. I had considered the same thing...

Apple, however like to be part of the zeitgeist and if the Pono becomes successful, (capturing the imagination and dollars of the general public) - Apple will want in. They need to keep their cred as a funky up-to-date brand blah, blah.

The cost of Pono and the cost of hi-res audio files may prohibit its access into all areas.

Pono will need some high profile endorsees and a great marketing campaign to get good reach into the markets. I very much doubt we will see silhouetted figures funky dancing to 24bit 192k grooves.
Old 17th March 2014
  #955
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skira's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitecat View Post
I wonder if Apple is just going to kill the iPod entirely rather than waste resources trying to bother 'improving' it for such a limited share of their revenue.
"Such a limited share" = $4.4 billion in 2013, not counting accessories or iTunes, which generate add-on revenue because of inexpensive iPod sales. While sales have certainly been decreasing year-over-year as the music-player category spins down (with Touches and phones taking over for iPod sales), I've never heard of any company in corporate history that scrapped a division's products that had multibillion-dollar sales and owned its market segment.
Old 17th March 2014
  #956
Quote:
Originally Posted by skira View Post
"Such a limited share" = $4.4 billion in 2013, not counting accessories or iTunes, which generate add-on revenue because of inexpensive iPod sales. While sales have certainly been decreasing year-over-year as the music-player category spins down (with Touches and phones taking over for iPod sales), I've never heard of any company in corporate history that scrapped a division's products that had multibillion-dollar sales and owned its market segment.
Spin it how you like but it's less than 2% of their overall revenue and it's down over 50% year on year. They're not going to axe it tomorrow but 5 years from now? Who knows? They either need to reinvent it or find a way to migrate those users to iPhones or they're wasting their time. I would imagine most of the iTunes revenue comes from iPhone and iPad owners. I don't think Apple breaks it down but they know.

$4.4bn is chump change to Apple.
Old 17th March 2014
  #957
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseflaw View Post
Interesting point. I had considered the same thing...

Apple, however like to be part of the zeitgeist and if the Pono becomes successful, (capturing the imagination and dollars of the general public) - Apple will want in. They need to keep their cred as a funky up-to-date brand blah, blah.
How many pure iPod iPods does Apple now sell? IIRC, they haven't updated that line in years and even regressed it a bit by ditching the model with a larger internal disk drive. I believe they sell many more of the app-ready Touch models that happen to play audio rather than models dedicated to audio. It's hard to imagine them jumping back in unless they see sales figures for pure audio players that aren't also phones, phablets or tablets going through the roof. Which does seem unlikely.
Old 17th March 2014
  #958
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I used to work at Apple. We didn't take returns on engraved products. That doesn't necessarily mean a manager couldn't force it through though. And iPod sales decreased heavily since the iPhone. Didn't sell too many of them. The Classic was the standout since it was the only one with significantly more memory then the phones offer.
Old 17th March 2014
  #959
Gear Nut
 

Can't imagine a chock shaped unpocketable hunk of plastic that does nothing but play music through headphones would garner much consumer enthusiasm these days.
Old 17th March 2014
  #960
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popmann's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Bandcamp for one. There are many others.

Alistair
Yes, I understand and use Bandcamp as an artist--primarily because they allow 88.2...or mp3--and use the business model they should--which is one price takes whatever format the user wants to pick.

I meant label music. I should've clarified.

Re:special player...Kenny...sure...so you don't buy the special player. I know I'm not. I wouldn't buy that silly thing if it were $100. What am I gonna do with that? I've had a 192/DSD capable stereo forever...so, I'm gonna put that big honking guy in my pocket to walk my dogs? How will I know when someone's calling me?

Meridian being announced as out means they likely won't have DRM on the files. They're already "out there" without anyway...so...are you thinking the store will only sell files if you bought the widget? I'm guessing not since at $399, with a Sabre and classA headphone amp, they're likely priced to make their money off the music sales.
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