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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 15th March 2014
  #661
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Already 22 pages of blabering by a handful of know-it-alls...can't we just give this new thing a chance? Assume good intention from Neil Young and see what happens...geez!
Old 15th March 2014
  #662
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James Lehmann's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by numero6 View Post
Assume good intention from Neil Young and see what happens...
OK, but what should we assume when 'what happens' is that his record company charge another $24.99 for his albums?
Old 15th March 2014
  #663
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When Pono streams at the quality promised with the stability and music catalogue of Spotify in a somewhat similar price range as Spotify, Pono will make the other services obsolete. If Pono does something like that I will become a Pono customer, in fact it will make me transfer from Qobuz to Pono. The news about Pono has a positive effect on both Spotify and Qobuz at least in the short term.

Anyway, I am opening Qobuz now to listen to David Nail's latest album in FLAC lossless CD quality...
Old 15th March 2014
  #664
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Lehmann View Post
OK, but what should we assume when 'what happens' is that his record company charge another $24.99 for his albums?
Well, if he manages to sell the albums for that to people who end up enjoying them in this fprmat I don't have a problem with that. Why do you? You don't have to buy them.
Old 15th March 2014
  #665
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that Pono video is kinda creepy

that many supporting celebs is usually reserved for charity
Old 15th March 2014
  #666
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O.F.F.'s Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave.R View Post
that Pono video is kinda creepy

that many supporting celebs is usually reserved for charity
Charity begins at home.
Old 15th March 2014
  #667
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MIKEHARRIS's Avatar
Built into a Samsung phone is the only way to be successful .
(remember the mini-disc..wait..no you don't )
Out muscle and Out Quality the iPhone...Samsung is doing it with their camera...how bout with audio. Put it on the agenda of a much larger company.
Old 15th March 2014
  #668
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Quote:
Originally Posted by O.F.F. View Post
Charity begins at home.
haha, yeah i guess their helping themselves
Old 15th March 2014
  #669
Quote:
Originally Posted by Early21 View Post
I would say that the limitations in stereo recordings vs. concert hall are not about bit depth or sample rate.

I will side with Kenny and admit that I can't hear the difference between my 24-bit mixes and the 16-bit mixdowns.

I suspect I could train myself to hear the differences between those 24-bit mixes and the 16-bit mixdowns if it were the least bit important...
Some people, myself included, think that the difference is important. Perhaps Pono will not be what you need but that doesn't mean it isn't a good thing.
Old 15th March 2014
  #670
Gear Guru
 
Brent Hahn's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by James Lehmann View Post
OK, but what should we assume when 'what happens' is that his record company charge another $24.99 for his albums?
Before there was digital I used to listen to albums all the way through. All the time. And listening to music, as Norah Jones succinctly put it, made me feel good.

These days I'll buy a CD on sale (new/reissue, doesn't matter) for, say, 10 bucks at Best Buy and put it on and I'm lucky if I make it through 2 songs before I'm so irritated and antsy that I just shut the damn thing off.

So I'm paying 5 bucks a song for something that makes me feel bad.

Assuming you're right about the $24.99, if I can get 10 songs (@ $2.50) that make me feel good -- that give me something close to that old experience -- I'm all in.
Old 15th March 2014
  #671
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Before there was digital I used to listen to albums all the way through. All the time. And listening to music, as Norah Jones succinctly put it, made me feel good.

These days I'll buy a CD on sale (new/reissue, doesn't matter) for, say, 10 bucks at Best Buy and put it on and I'm lucky if I make it through 2 songs before I'm so irritated and antsy that I just shut the damn thing off.

So I'm paying 5 bucks a song for something that makes me feel bad.

Assuming you're right about the $24.99, if I can get 10 songs (@ $2.50) that make me feel good -- that give me something close to that old experience -- I'm all in.
This comes a bit closer to what is of importance here. Basically, what will the experience actually be like to use this thing with those files.

We can all wax cynical about why that experience would likely be crap because of this and that logic and construction stuff, but until you try you won't know. It may be a really pleasant experience. One of more value than listening to mp3's off your phone, which inherently has ZERO value. If it can do ANYTHING to the attachment of VALUE to music again, it would be amazing.
Old 15th March 2014
  #672
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skira's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
We can all wax cynical about why that experience would likely be crap because of this and that logic and construction stuff, but until you try you won't know
This thread is filled with pie-eyed, rose-colored-glasses-wearing credulous True Belivers too. I assume you meant to speak to them as well.

'Openminded' and 'cynical' are not the only alternatives. Skepticism is a reasonable stance for numerous reasons already articulated.
Old 15th March 2014
  #673
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
This comes a bit closer to what is of importance here. Basically, what will the experience actually be like to use this thing with those files.

We can all wax cynical about why that experience would likely be crap because of this and that logic and construction stuff, but until you try you won't know. It may be a really pleasant experience. One of more value than listening to mp3's off your phone, which inherently has ZERO value. If it can do ANYTHING to the attachment of VALUE to music again, it would be amazing.
Yes! It's easy to forget that we're not selling IP or selling albums or selling "content" but rather selling an experience -- and hopefully an experience worth repeating.
Old 15th March 2014
  #674
Gear Addict
 

....sorry, but it's a myst that HRA sounds any better than common cd quality....

there are good reasons to work in higher resultions in production....
but when it comes to consuming, this is simply not the case....

and as long you don't listen to orchestra or jazz music a 320k mp3 is doin not such a bad job, really....

128gb?.....wow, that's at least 8 albums in highest resolution to go....

the reason why some people still adore vinyl sound is not the fact that you hear a wider range....it's because the range is smaller....
some might say....warmer....

take your itunes lib weight in gigs and multiply it with 30.....than you know what to carry with you in HRA....

...this is all bull****ting by old men, try selling their backkatalog again....

get good audio gear, take your vinyls or cd's, even your lossless codecs and enjoy listening.....
experience is what you make it....

don't listen to old men with a tinnitus trying to make a buck....
Old 15th March 2014
  #675
Gear Addict
 
Bruno B's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
This comes a bit closer to what is of importance here. Basically, what will the experience actually be like to use this thing with those files.

We can all wax cynical about why that experience would likely be crap because of this and that logic and construction stuff, but until you try you won't know. It may be a really pleasant experience. One of more value than listening to mp3's off your phone, which inherently has ZERO value. If it can do ANYTHING to the attachment of VALUE to music again, it would be amazing.
You believe that converting a great-sounding song to a 320kbps mp3 has ZERO value?

The majority of listeners will find it more than adequate. If they're not paying for it, well, then "near CD-quality" is good enough and great value to them.

There is no attachment of value to music because of piracy, not sound quality.
Old 15th March 2014
  #676
Lives for gear
One thing to mention here is that ITB x mp3 compression is cumulatively worse than OTB/analog x no mp3 compression. The real hit of mp3 is with all the ITB recordings out there. Brent, I believe this is one of the main reasons why you skip even tracks in CD quality, they are produced by samples and plugins. CD quality or preferrably better recorded both ITB and OTB/analog is the way to go in my opinion. With less limitations comes more options and a richer music world. When Neil Young says modern recordings need an emotional boost/re-awakening he is right, I am of the same opinion. One important step with that is to capture more information rather than to destroy information.

ITB = 2
OTB = 4
MP3 compression = 2
No MP3 compression = 4
Studio master, [email protected] = 16
Iphone converter = 2
Denon HIFI converter = 4
Apple in ear buds = 2
Ultrasone PRO 900 headphones = 4

Total worst vs. best difference:

Modern digital audio: 2^4 = 16
Optimized modern digital audio: 4^3 x 16 = 1024

That simple illustration provides the potential of 64 times the emotional impact of the modern music experience as we know it. Then when DSD converters become the norm it can potentially grow like this:

DSD based: 4^3 x 256 = 16384

That is the potential of 1024 times the emotional impact of the modern music experience as we know it.

It is all about understanding the cumulative nature of polarity shifts and Neil Young seems to understand that. Neil Young wants to rescue the music industry, fundamentally change it and give it a very healthy boost. This is a much more important topic than the loudness war topic.
Old 15th March 2014
  #677
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno B View Post
There is no attachment of value to music because of piracy, not sound quality.
I think that's a reasonable statement, but I don't fully agree. I think there's a complex system of causality.

At least among my friends, there is a feeling that music and movies are separate things. One doesn't have value, the other does.

Music is "cheap and easy to make/not worth paying for/not worth paying attention to" etc. and movies are "expensive and difficult to make/worth paying for, etc."

I think the shrillness of the loudness war and the concurrent disappearance of label budgets (resulting in more DIY home recording/less professional studio production) has subtly contributed to this perception. I don't think they are primary causes, but albums that truly sound like they were done with skill and care (like Nigel Godrich productions, for example) are rare. And the public had taken notice of this.

That's my sense.

- c
Old 15th March 2014
  #678
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bogosort's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
Batting around a little nerdy dude from the Netherlands all day like a kitten bats a ball of yarn has been fun, but I'm afraid I've grown tired of it now.
Let's see: UnderTow actually and demonstrably understands digital audio, and you resort to calling people "nerd" (insecure much?).

You might want to rethink who's the cat and who's the ball of yarn in this exchange.
Old 15th March 2014
  #679
Quote:
Originally Posted by James Lehmann View Post
OK, but what should we assume when 'what happens' is that his record company charge another $24.99 for his albums?
Is that a fact?
Old 15th March 2014
  #680
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bogosort's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
These days I'll buy a CD on sale (new/reissue, doesn't matter) for, say, 10 bucks at Best Buy and put it on and I'm lucky if I make it through 2 songs before I'm so irritated and antsy that I just shut the damn thing off.

So I'm paying 5 bucks a song for something that makes me feel bad.
Are you sure the reason it makes you feel bad is the 16/44.1 format, and not the mastering? When you burn a CD of your own mix, does it make you feel bad?

I really wish Neil Young, et al, had put all this effort into stopping the loudness war, which is by far the biggest problem with audio quality. Switching to "hi res" formats won't fix that.
Old 15th March 2014
  #681
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I honestly think it's really the mastering habits that are the problem. Release dynamic, 0% distortion, K14 masters alongside the ****ty sounding ones and the problem is solved without any new hardware.

24bit 48k on an ipod should be pristine.

PS - not blaming the mastering engineers here, I think it's the people running the labels that are driving it all from the top down.
Old 15th March 2014
  #682
Gear Nut
 
madcap8465's Avatar
 

DENVER — A little-known, 18-employee, music-equipment manufacturer in Boulder is the technology driver behind Neil Young's digital-music venture, an end-to-end ecosystem that will pit the legendary singer-songwriter against Apple's iTunes and iPod juggernaut.

Young lifted the curtain this week on PonoMusic: an ultra-high-resolution music service that includes a corresponding high-end portable music player.

He said the idea for the business was borne out of his frustration with the low-quality recordings consumers have grown accustomed to, first with compact discs and then with MP3s.

"What we decided to do was come out with a new system that's not a format, had no rules, respected the art, respected what the artist was trying to do," Young said Tuesday during a keynote speech at the South by Southwest Music Festival in Austin, Texas. "Pono plays back whatever the artist decided to do, or the artist's producer decided to do."

Young said it took him 2½ years to get the business off the ground. Just over a month ago, he tapped Boulder's Ayre Acoustics to develop the technology behind the digital-music player, called PonoPlayer.

Ayre, founded two decades ago, makes high-end music equipment, including a $3,000 digital-to-analog device that converts a song's digital signal to an analog wave before it's sent to a music player's speakers.

"That's one of the most critical points where you can either capture the music as it was originally made, or you can kind of destroy the soul of the music and make it lifeless," said Brent Hefley, Ayre's marketing manager. "(Young) listened to that and said, 'That's the sound that I want in this portable player.' That's the point where they called us up and asked us if we would meet with them in regards to designing the circuitry for the PonoPlayer."

Hefley said record producers such as Rick Rubin, who was featured in a video Young played Tuesday about PonoMusic, use Ayre's equipment.

The digital-to-analog converter, or DAC, chip that Ayre created for the PonoPlayer is about 1/20th the size of the one featured in its standard unit. While the DAC chip is key to maintaining the integrity of a music signal, Ayre also incorporated technology from its $30,000 pre-amplifier into the player.

"We spent three straight weeks just hard-core working on this because they had a deadline to get this done," Hefley said. "This PonoPlayer is by far the best sounding portable player that will ever touch the market."

Ayre cut a royalty deal with PonoMusic for its work on the player, he said.

PonoMusic launched a Kickstarter crowdfunding campaign for the device to coincide with Young's keynote, and by Tuesday night it had surpassed its $800,000 goal.

Geared toward audiophiles, the triangle-shaped player — about 5 inches long — is available for a Kickstarter pledge of $300 and will retail for $400. The PonoPlayer features 64 gigabytes of on-board storage and a 64 GB microSD card — enough memory for about 800 songs in the ultra-high-resolution format.

"We are absolutely delighted to have some of the audio genius of Ayre in our player — those guys are rock stars," PonoMusic CEO John Hamm said in an email.

PonoMusic will feature an online store similar to Apple's iTunes that sells high-resolution songs in so-called FLAC format for between $15 to $25 per album. Depending on the level at which it is recorded, a PonoMusic file will have six to 30 times more musical information than a standard MP3 file.

"The user will notice it," said Mike McGuire, a vice president with industry research firm Gartner. "The question is: Will they notice enough to opt for it?"

Some locals in the digital-music industry aren't sold.

"No one has dedicated music players anymore. They have phones that play music," said Josh Nielsen, founder of Robot Audio, a browser-based digital-audio workstation for musicians. "This is a product that sound engineers and Neil Young worshippers will buy, but it will be a mainstream flop."

Young said the major record labels are on board, and countless rock stars voiced support in his SXSW video, from Tom Petty to Pearl Jam.

The PonoPlayer is scheduled to ship in October.

Information from: The Denver Post, Colorado Breaking News, Sports, Weather, Traffic, Jobs - The Denver Post

Read more here: DENVER: Boulder firm develops chip for Neil Young venture | Technology | The Bellingham Herald
Old 15th March 2014
  #683
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666666's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by H.E. View Post

Yea, a good thing with this PONO thing and media interest is that it puts quality of audio in focus.
Yes, indeed. We badly need this. As Neil pointed out, the audio quality of mass production music has so severely deteriorated over the years... and now it is indeed total CRAP as he put it. It is. This cannot be argued. If you can't "hear" and understand that it is crap then sadly your ears must already be conditioned in a very negative way. But if you have an open mind and are willing to attempt to appreciate good sound, there is hope... you'll need to work at it. And it will be an ever glorious revelation once you're there. Better than sex... really. To put it down and say it's bunk just shows total ignorance.

Quote:

I don't know if I or any other gearslutz member is able to hear the difference between 24 and 16 bit files.
We can all argue until the end of time who can or cannot hear this frequency or that frequency or this codec etc, bla bla bla. It's pointless. Some folks can indeed hear at least 24-bit / 96k AIFFs over everything that is lesser... I know I can. So why argue about it? If you can't hear it, fine... don't buy it. But it should at least be widely available for those who can hear it and appreciate it. End of story!

We have the technology and storage, so good audio should be widely available to the masses. There is NO reason why it shouldn't be.

I've never personally compared 24/96k to anything of higher resolution so I can't say whether or not 192k is worth bothering with... maybe it isn't. BUT, 24/96k IS INDEED very noticeably superior to 16/44.1k. (And any type of file compression is out of the question of course)

So, for me.... just give me a player that can handle 24/96k, that has excellent DA converters, and access to well-mastered 24/96k audio files. IS this really too much to ask??? For those who can't "hear" and/or can't appreciate good fidelity etc, they can always play lower-res files of their choice on the same player. But at least give us the high-fidelity option. There is no reason why we can't have this now.

Anyone who is going to cut me down on this is either just trolling or truly can't hear ****... I'm sorry, but that's just the case. If you can't appreciate good fidelity, then don't bother with it and go play somewhere else.

More power to Neil Young for raising awareness. His Pono player itself might not be "ideal" for assorted reasons, but at least he's making an important move here against the current state of **** audio. It may just take a guy as big as he is to actually make something happen here. Past attempts at higher-res have failed possibly / probably because they just weren't marketed properly. I think Neil's approach is a good one. $3,474,907 raised so far... he's reaching people and they care. Thank you, Neil!


-----------
Old 15th March 2014
  #684
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I am not going to go back to a pay per album model only though, no way... I can spend some more per month if I get the albums I currently miss on Qobuz and at a higher quality than CD. But beyond that it becomes too expensive per month, I rather then prefer spending the money on live concerts... If the music industry wants a real boost in cash out of my pocket it should focus on optimizing the live concert availability and experience quality... That part of the music industry is a big gold mine today, but optimizing the quality of digital music in mobile devices is a gold mine too, only a smaller one...

It is great though to see that people are finally waking up and support Neil with 3+ mUSD in CD+ quality, I have been alarming people about the damage of mp3 ever since it got mainstream. This whole Neil Young story - in one way or another - seems like a victory for music. Let us just wait and see what the product/service will be in reality.

I wonder what rolls in the heads of Apple, Spotify, Google, Microsoft, Sony etc. now, all probably having invested millions into lossful audio... Neil Young enters the picture and takes the cake right in front of their eyes... That's how a musician that rocks does it... The battle between Qobuz and Pono will be an interesting one. Qobuz now has a clock ticking getting their products and services into the English language available globally and filling their music catalogue like crazy... Knowing the plans of Pono, 7 months is an eternity, now Qobuz just needs to push really really hard and they will take the lead, a 7 month sleep period is going to hit them really hard...
Old 15th March 2014
  #685
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MIKEHARRIS's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Before there was digital I used to listen to albums all the way through. All the time. And listening to music, as Norah Jones succinctly put it, made me feel good.
And you listened to more than just the hits.....there was a flow. You discovered cool other cuts....the album had continuity.
Old 15th March 2014
  #686
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666666's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bogosort View Post

Are you sure the reason it makes you feel bad is the 16/44.1 format, and not the mastering? When you burn a CD of your own mix, does it make you feel bad?

I really wish Neil Young, et al, had put all this effort into stopping the loudness war, which is by far the biggest problem with audio quality. Switching to "hi res" formats won't fix that.
Excellent point. Both the resolution AND the mastering have been a problem.

Whenever I bounce a 24-bit mix down to a 16-bit format I always hear the difference immediately. Mind you, it's in a studio environment with excellent monitoring, not on an iPod with ****ty converters and $14.99 ear-buds. But, there IS a degradation there from 24 to 16. 24-bit is surely superior and can be heard, at least on competent equipment. So we should be able to have access to it.

But yes, what has been a much greater problem has been the mastering, over-limiting, digital distortion, etc. And indeed it IS up to the artists, producers, labels etc to make the move here to stop the silly "loudness war" etc and put more focus on good fidelity.

Gee, the loudness war can't go on forever... every trend has to flip at some point. I'm hoping and praying for an all-new war... a "fidelity war"... where artists / labels will be trying to outdo each other in terms of stellar sound quality / fidelity. It might perhaps also be referred to as the "quietness wars" as the mastering engineers compete to retain ultra lively transients, you know, the stuff that makes music really come alive... something we haven't heard for quite some time. One can only hope.
Old 15th March 2014
  #687
Quote:
Originally Posted by madcap8465 View Post
DENVER — A little-known, 18-employee, music-equipment manufacturer in Boulder is the technology driver behind Neil Young's digital-music venture, an end-to-end ecosystem that will pit the legendary singer-songwriter against Apple's iTunes and iPod juggernaut.

Young lifted the curtain this week on PonoMusic: an ultra-high-resolution music service that includes a corresponding high-end portable music player.

He said the idea for the business was borne out of his frustration with the low-quality recordings consumers have grown accustomed to, first with compact discs and then with MP3s.

"What we decided to do was come out with a new system that's not a format, had no rules, respected the art, respected what the artist was trying to do," Young said Tuesday during a keynote speech at the South by Southwest Music Festival in Austin, Texas. "Pono plays back whatever the artist decided to do, or the artist's producer decided to do."

Young said it took him 2½ years to get the business off the ground. Just over a month ago, he tapped Boulder's Ayre Acoustics to develop the technology behind the digital-music player, called PonoPlayer.

Ayre, founded two decades ago, makes high-end music equipment, including a $3,000 digital-to-analog device that converts a song's digital signal to an analog wave before it's sent to a music player's speakers.

"That's one of the most critical points where you can either capture the music as it was originally made, or you can kind of destroy the soul of the music and make it lifeless," said Brent Hefley, Ayre's marketing manager. "(Young) listened to that and said, 'That's the sound that I want in this portable player.' That's the point where they called us up and asked us if we would meet with them in regards to designing the circuitry for the PonoPlayer."

Hefley said record producers such as Rick Rubin, who was featured in a video Young played Tuesday about PonoMusic, use Ayre's equipment.

The digital-to-analog converter, or DAC, chip that Ayre created for the PonoPlayer is about 1/20th the size of the one featured in its standard unit. While the DAC chip is key to maintaining the integrity of a music signal, Ayre also incorporated technology from its $30,000 pre-amplifier into the player.

"We spent three straight weeks just hard-core working on this because they had a deadline to get this done," Hefley said. "This PonoPlayer is by far the best sounding portable player that will ever touch the market."

Ayre cut a royalty deal with PonoMusic for its work on the player, he said.

PonoMusic launched a Kickstarter crowdfunding campaign for the device to coincide with Young's keynote, and by Tuesday night it had surpassed its $800,000 goal.

Geared toward audiophiles, the triangle-shaped player — about 5 inches long — is available for a Kickstarter pledge of $300 and will retail for $400. The PonoPlayer features 64 gigabytes of on-board storage and a 64 GB microSD card — enough memory for about 800 songs in the ultra-high-resolution format.

"We are absolutely delighted to have some of the audio genius of Ayre in our player — those guys are rock stars," PonoMusic CEO John Hamm said in an email.

PonoMusic will feature an online store similar to Apple's iTunes that sells high-resolution songs in so-called FLAC format for between $15 to $25 per album. Depending on the level at which it is recorded, a PonoMusic file will have six to 30 times more musical information than a standard MP3 file.

"The user will notice it," said Mike McGuire, a vice president with industry research firm Gartner. "The question is: Will they notice enough to opt for it?"

Some locals in the digital-music industry aren't sold.

"No one has dedicated music players anymore. They have phones that play music," said Josh Nielsen, founder of Robot Audio, a browser-based digital-audio workstation for musicians. "This is a product that sound engineers and Neil Young worshippers will buy, but it will be a mainstream flop."

Young said the major record labels are on board, and countless rock stars voiced support in his SXSW video, from Tom Petty to Pearl Jam.

The PonoPlayer is scheduled to ship in October.

Information from: The Denver Post, Colorado Breaking News, Sports, Weather, Traffic, Jobs - The Denver Post

Read more here: DENVER: Boulder firm develops chip for Neil Young venture | Technology | The Bellingham Herald
Lordy, that's thick.

Nice to see it's got 'technology' from their $30K preamp. I'm sure that's as impressive in the $400 portable as that utterly vague phrase is in that paragraph.
Old 15th March 2014
  #688
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

I am excited about the Pono concept, as is evident by my posts on this thread, but I do find it very ironic that Metallica and the Red Hot Chilli Peppers ---- two of the most infamous victims of the loudness war --- now have signature models.

- c
Old 15th March 2014
  #689
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

I will also add that Pono plays any file you give it to [excluding MP3]. It will play a 16/44 file. It will play a 24/48 file. 24/44 file. It will play a 24/96 file. And of course if you have one, it will play 24/192.

That's pretty cool, if you ask me.

- c
Old 15th March 2014
  #690
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
Lordy, that's thick.

Nice to see it's got 'technology' from their $30K preamp. I'm sure that's as impressive in the $400 portable as that utterly vague phrase is in that paragraph.
I'm unclear what you're insinuating. Do you believe that the player should be more expensive? Don't you think the company has worked to strike a balance between sound quality and price?

I mean, almost everyone I know has said "I'm not paying $400 for something that just plays MUSIC!" Don't you think the company is trying to reach an accord with that kind of mindset?

- c
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