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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 15th March 2014
  #601
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spurratic View Post
This little device just represents the idea that maybe we'll see a focus on sound quality, and that I pretty damn exciting.
The detractors in this thread don't value that at all. In fact, they resent it as hype.

- c
Old 15th March 2014
  #602
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Quote:
Originally Posted by playon View Post
I keep saying this, I think many like yourself are completely missing the point -- this isn't about the f*cking sample rates. The Pono is a portable device capable of playing back high-res audio in better fidelity than most consumers have ever heard in their lives. It has state-of-the-art D/A converters and a discrete analog path and it will play FLAC files. With half decent earphones or speakers it probably sounds really fantastic.
There is no evidence the average person cares about a difference between 320kbps and FLAC or uncompressed. In specific circumstances, indeed, you can hear it, but you need to learn how to hear it.

I'm guessing that the MP3 to redbook is a relatively large difference compared to a iPod converter and this converter. I personally have very rarely been able to hear a difference between converters (well, not in a long time anyway because they are all pretty good), and never did a blind test. I think there is FAR more difference between mp3 and red book than between different converters THESE days.

So I'm saying.. if this is NOT about sample rates.. then it's about what amounts to a different kind of snake oil it seems to me.

Quote:
This is an attempt to raise the bar significantly for consumer audio. I'm not surprised that the musicans were floored by how good it sounded.
Sorry, I remain skeptical. I think the massive facepalms are proving it's a pretty emotional issue for you. Nobody is curing cancer here...
Old 15th March 2014
  #603
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FeatheredSerpent View Post
And re higher sample rates - there was a post somewhere on GS recently that linked to a fairly cutting edge study that showed that we do in fact perceive ultrasonic frequencies...That is quite a revelation.
that would be quite a revelation... if it were true.

Unfortunately all such studies have repeatedly failed to hold up under attempted replication.

The belief in ultrasonic perception and links to discredited studies keep popping up because it is a popular "cover" - a pseudo-scientific fig leaf for a belief in Magic. The video's "underwater" metaphor says 96k is good but 192 is even better. Even if you grant ultrasonic hearing to humans, it would have to be over 48k (! ) to be influencing this. Even if these studies were validated, regardless of what frequency above 20k it is claimed humans can hear, (22k? 24k? ) - for 96k to be inadequate, humans have to be able to hear higher than 48k. Does your study say that?

In any case, the sample rates and bit depths offered by Pono are no higher than commonly available High-Res formats already in existence for over a decade and certainly no higher than these same musicians have already heard their own music replayed at in the studio! Their shocked testimonials that they have "never before" heard such sound quality are clearly not based on factual recollection. And a moment's reflection will indicate that it is simply not possible for Pono to sound "better" than the studio masters. Yet that's exactly what they are implying.

the hype is a turn-off, pure and simple
Old 15th March 2014
  #604
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skira View Post
43 posts just in this thread in the last 5 hours and you're asking again.
How constructive.
Since we're counting...
Less than 400 post in 12 yrs.
Old 15th March 2014
  #605
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This is GS… The BS detector is on high alert because we hear famous audio gurus use their name and credibility to advertise the next game-changing product on a daily basis.

We know the musicians in the video will profit from reselling their music. If those same musicians were told that starting tomorrow they'd be making more money from mp3 sales than they did previously with any other format, and mp3s were the future… How many of those same musicians might be open to changing their testimonial?

Personally, I don't want to download music. I just want to select the song I want to hear and push the play (pay) button. High-quality music, streamed in realtime to any of my devices. Storage in the cloud, not in my playback device. Revolution is in the streaming service that values high-quality audio, combats piracy, and pays musicians fairly.

This product isn't for me, but like everyone else here, I support killing mp3 in favor of good sound quality. So good luck to them. When high-quality portable audio becomes the standard, it will have to be on my phone with decent D/A converters and audio components. I'm not carrying another thing in my pocket - musicians can't fit anything in their skinny jeans as it is. No way I'm wasting time and effort managing a second device, charging it, syncing with iPonotunes.
Old 15th March 2014
  #606
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
Less than 400 post in 12 yrs
Nearly 100 of them solely in this thread, and within the last 2 days. Not something to be proud of, man. Manic, quite literally.
Old 15th March 2014
  #607
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Quote:
Originally Posted by skira View Post
Nearly 100 of them solely in this thread, and within the last 2 days. Not something to be proud of. Manic, literally.
I was enjoying myself having a robust discussion of all things audio.
Don't read it if it bothers you.
People keep asking me to respond. So I did.
Thanx for counting.
Old 15th March 2014
  #608
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno B View Post
We know the musicians in the video will profit from reselling their music. If those same musicians were told that starting tomorrow they'd be making more money from mp3 sales than they did previously with any other format, and mp3s were the future… How many of those same musicians might be open to changing their testimonial?
Again: People keep positing dark speculation as if it has intrinsic merit or advances the discussion.

It does not.

- c
Old 15th March 2014
  #609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
No. They may not be lying. They're just not hearing what they say they're hearing.




Grow the F up.
Classy.
Old 15th March 2014
  #610
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I think the era of high fidelity music has passed. In the 70s everyone was into audiophile listening and it was a status symbol to have a hifi system. There were stereo shops all around.

Now HD TV is the fad.

In 5 yrs time 3D virtual reality experiences will be in the living room. Travel anywhere in the world from your armchair.
Old 15th March 2014
  #611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
Again: People keep positing dark speculation as if it has intrinsic merit or advances the discussion.

It does not.

- c
It's not dark. Celebrities endorse products because of money. You paint a picture of these rock musicians as saints we should blindly trust.

People keep posting that celebrity testimonials, news coverage, even the money donated… that these somehow validate the claims made in a promotional video.
Old 15th March 2014
  #612
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno B View Post
It's not dark. Celebrities endorse products because of money. You paint a picture of these rock musicians as saints we should blindly trust.
Nope. My only point is it's speculation.

You see that video and you're like "They're lying. They're in it for the money."

Personally, I don't see it that way.

Which one of us is correct? No one can know.

Speculating about people's motives is not science.

That's my only point.

- c
Old 15th March 2014
  #613
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Pono detractors repeatedly insist their misgivings are based on a superior scientific perspective.

And then they immediately resort to speculation.

It's an unfortunate merry-go-round.

- c
Old 15th March 2014
  #614
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
It isn't. No device can live up to their reaction if the sampling frequency is the only difference.
Why?

- c
Old 15th March 2014
  #615
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
You see that video and you're like "They're lying. They're in it for the money."
IMO, the extreme universally positive reaction seems like a scripted infomercial. Every one of the endorsees has heard 192 KHz 24-bit audio before. It's not that mind blowing. I thought it was a parody or comedy short at first, not a real product. Too over the top.
Old 15th March 2014
  #616
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
In any case, the sample rates and bit depths offered by Pono are no higher than commonly available High-Res formats already in existence for over a decade and certainly no higher than these same musicians have already heard their own music replayed at in the studio! Their shocked testimonials that they have "never before" heard such sound quality are clearly not based on factual recollection.
Pretty sure the artists are trying to say that they haven't hear such a good representation of their music SINCE the studio.

I thought the whole point of the video was that people are talking about how much music is compressed and down sampled. (Whether or not there is any science around that)

I don't recall any of the artists suggesting that it was somehow better sounding than the studio, but I haven't necessarily gone back and watched the video for a transcript.
Old 15th March 2014
  #617
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Lol but there's the professional transcript man to probably correct me. Sorry....can't read your posts my man.
Old 15th March 2014
  #618
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None of those endorsees even have their high frequency hearing left. Most probably have tinnitus and can't hear about 15K. No way they can hear a difference between 44.1 and 192 sampling rate. Infomercial.
Old 15th March 2014
  #619
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Ouch.

(secretly writing that one down)

One of my favorite put downs was from the show "Mad Men" where one of the characters was so mad at the other that he expressed his feelings with great anger. The response? "I don't even think about you". lol
Good answer.

At least now we know the trend is everyone starting to move to the back-end of the music industry to make a buck.
Old 15th March 2014
  #620
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
I imagine I'd be insulted if we were peers.

- c
If you were my peer I wouldn't have to mention lack of technical understanding.

Alistair
Old 15th March 2014
  #621
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
How did he take it out of nerd city? Seriously?

If he was honest, this would be a great product (as you described) for audiophiles.

Only thru lying or exaggerating does he bring in the average ham and egger.
Again: I don't believe anyone involved is lying. I find that insinuation pretty amazing. I mean, I did blind tests of hi-res audio in the Magic Shop's Blue Room. Am I lying too?

Is everybody who has made different empirical observations than you, who hears differently... who has had different experiences... are we all lying?

Neil Young took it out of the nerd zone simply by showing a bunch of respected musicians and producers getting earnestly excited. It was a pretty inspired, relatively organic promotional concept. He did this as a measure to promote a venture he has been obsessed with --- it's even in his damned book! --- for a quarter century now.

This simple act seems to have scandalized the nerds, but conversely it has excited regular music listeners. Many of my regular music-fan [read: non-audiophile] friends on Facebook have ordered one. Women and men. Regular music fans. They're psyched. We'll see how they feel in Fall when the product is delivered, but for now they're pretty stoked!

I predict Pono's draw will be close to ten million dollars by close of this Kickstarter. I might be wrong, but I don't think I am.

No other audiophile initiative --- not SACD, not DVD-A, not HDtracks or whatever --- has achieved anywhere near this level of public excitement.

- c
Old 15th March 2014
  #622
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
It's also a great way to tell people what you think of them without getting in trouble.

You're welcome.

Cowardly. Wow....
Old 15th March 2014
  #623
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
If you were my peer I wouldn't have to mention lack of technical understanding.

Alistair
When you condescend to me, it's effing hilarious.

- c
Old 15th March 2014
  #624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
Are you suggesting that if you did an A/B audio quality test on 100 people, you would get the same results 100% of the time?
Or would the test be dependent on those people's ability to hear and feel?
If all humans hear differently, ( I bet Stevie Wonder and I hear differently ) the test would be subjective at best.

Now if you drop a penny to the ground 100 times, I suspect it will hit the ground 100 times.

Neil Young is trying to think outside the box.
If he doesn't sell one device, that doesn't make him wrong.

I would submit that the greatest thinkers of our time ignore empirical evidence and fact-based theory.
How could there be any progress otherwise?
Aha!!!! THIS is the the thing!!! Human hearing varies in QUALITY not QUANTITY. Stevie Wonder is NOT hearing 40Khz.
Old 15th March 2014
  #625
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
Nope. My only point is it's speculation.

You see that video and you're like "They're lying. They're in it for the money." I don't see that.

Which one of us is correct? No one can know.

Speculating about people's motives is not science.

That's my only point.

- c
It's possible they're lying, but in general I don't think they are. I can see why they'd say the things they're saying in that video. they are human.

There have been some outrageous claims on this very thread about 16bit vs. 24bit, sample rates, even some claims in the video about CDs. My issue is with misinformation.

I have some experience with Apogee and Lavry converters and am happy at 24bit/48kHz myself.
Old 15th March 2014
  #626
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bruno B View Post
I have some experience with Apogee and Lavry converters and am happy at 24bit/48kHz myself.
In my personal experience, sampling rate has the least effect on musical outcome of any one factor you could isolate.

So I am no proponent of "HOORAY! 24/192! WE'RE ALL SAVED! THE LAST 25 YEARS OF AUDIO CRIMES HAVE BEEN ERASED!"

What matters most is skill and care. And good instincts. Always.

I will definitely take a 16/44 recording by Tchad Blake over a 24/192 self-recording by a band in Wisconsin [or some dude in the Netherlands, say] in their basement. Any day.

- c
Old 15th March 2014
  #627
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by playon View Post
I keep saying this, I think many like yourself are completely missing the point -- this isn't about the f*cking sample rates. The Pono is a portable device capable of playing back high-res audio in better fidelity than most consumers have ever heard in their lives. It has state-of-the-art D/A converters and a discrete analog path and it will play FLAC files. With half decent earphones or speakers it probably sounds really fantastic.

This is an attempt to raise the bar significantly for consumer audio. I'm not surprised that the musicans were floored by how good it sounded. I am surprised that so many on this forum, of all places, are so relentlessly negative about the whole idea, and are arguing about technical elements, and whether Neil Young is out to trick everyone (please!), when you'd assume as audio professionals they would be all for the entire concept. Maybe Neil is wrong about the 192k sampling rate, but if the thing sounds great who gives a ****?

You know, I'm actually pretty open minded about stuff. Just for ****s and giggles, after listening to your rant about state-of-the-art D/A etc, at this moment, I plugged my akg k240df's into my $75 android phone and gave a listen to the first couple tracks of "The Rhythm of the Saints." These are not really forgiving headphones... at 600 ohms per side they take a decent amp to drive them. I have a couple albums on there in FLAC format, using a free app ( n7player ) for playback. Sounds great. I seriously doubt if I could hear a difference playing back through this $400 gadget. Total cost to me for this lossless audio playback system? Nothing, I already own a smart phone.

But I will agree with another sentiment expressed here, that it's nice to see audio quality getting focused on.

But the sad thing is, it does no good if the people doing the publicity are focusing on another piece of **** to sell, or on stupid falsifiable claims about sample rates, when the real issue is lossy compression and **** mastering jobs. That kind of nonsense leaves consumers even more confused and in the dark.
Old 15th March 2014
  #628
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Cowardly. Wow....
Exactly. It's pretty sad actually.
Old 15th March 2014
  #629
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
I think we over-estimated the people who frequent this site.

- c
Especially the one sitting right in front of your screen.

Alistair
Old 15th March 2014
  #630
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
When you condescend to me, it's effing hilarious.

- c
I'm glad you suffering the Dunning-Kruger effect makes you laugh.

Alistair
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