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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 15th March 2014
  #571
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
I agree. They do seem that way. In fact, I believe that they are being honest. Which means something is off. I don't care what anyone in this thread wants to claim they can hear with 192kHz audio. You can't have the same reaction as those in the video when comparing 44.1kHz 16 bit to 192kHz 24 bit. If there's a difference it is subtle. These guys appear to have found the holy grail in Neil Young's car.

He's either playing it back 10dB louder from that device, playing them a different mix or providing them with some really cool hallucinogens.

Their reactions don't line up with the differences between 44.1kHz an 192kHz.

Otherwise we would all be using it. We all have it for christ sake.

But no. I don't have an axe to grind. Someone is selling snake oil based on a subject that I happen to know something about. I like just about everyone in that video.
I don't think this is about sample rates per se... it probably has more to do with remastered audio and the Pono having state of the art converters and high quality analog circuitry. It's about bringing better audio to the masses. Whether 24/192 is "better" I don't know. I work at 24/88.2 and it sounds good to me, even with my somewhat dated converters. I would love to have FLAC files of my favorite music in that resolution that I could carry around and play while walking or in the car, etc.

The only "snake oil" involved is that I'm sure the record companies would love to revisit the "new format profit" that they got when the CD came out and they we able to resell their back catalogs for higher prices than they sold them for the first time, and perhaps the artists are hoping for a new royalty stream. Can hardly blame the latter for that.
Old 15th March 2014
  #572
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
So I have to ask, are you implying that Neil Young got each one of these people to lie, exaggerate, or even misrepresent how they feel about PONO's sound quality, so that they can all make more money?
Or that maybe they even all are self- deluded?
All of them?
Am I understanding you clearly?
No, you aren't understanding. Google "confirmation bias" to see what I'm talking about. The first step to protecting your decision making from confirmation bias is knowing what it is and how common it is. It's a basic human behavior.
Old 15th March 2014
  #573
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post

I feel uncharitability creeping over me. I'm going to go do something else before I blurt out what I'm thinking again.
I should let you know that when I had email notifications turned on, I got every one of you 'thoughts' before you deleted them. Just FYI. Typing negative things and then deleting them is an interesting way of participating in a forum. That being said, I thought I'd share this with you in case you want these thoughts to remain private.
Old 15th March 2014
  #574
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
You are to be commended, sir, for astutely noting that a promotional Kickstarter video is indeed attempting to promote the product.

- c
Thanx...you make me laugh!
C
Old 15th March 2014
  #575
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by spurratic View Post
I should let you know that when I had email notifications turned on, I got every one of you 'thoughts' before you deleted them. Just FYI. Typing negative things and then deleting them is an interesting way of participating in a forum. That being said, I thought I'd share this with you in case you want these thoughts to remain private.
I do the same thing sometimes. It's because the frustration wins for a couple minutes, until you calm down and realize it's not worth it, or not effective. Also I would say, you have to be some kind of masochist to have forum posts emailed to you!
Old 15th March 2014
  #576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
How does that even make any sense to you?

They spend their lives recording finished masters in top studios yet a $400 triangle sounds as good or better?
Yeah but people are not accustomed to hearing sound that good in a car or on a portable device. They heard playbacks in a studio when their records were done but since that time they probably haven't listened to them on anything better than a CD.

These days a $400 device can sound amazing... why not? The Pono has better converters in than my old Panasonic D/As.
Old 15th March 2014
  #577
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter View Post
No, you aren't understanding. Google "confirmation bias" to see what I'm talking about. The first step to protecting your decision making from confirmation bias is knowing what it is and how common it is. It's a basic human behavior.
Yep...I get it.
So I'll ask again...
Are you implying that Neil Young got each one of these people to lie, exaggerate, or even misrepresent how they feel about PONO's sound quality, so that they can all make more money?
Or that maybe they even all are self- deluded?
All of them?
Every one of them has confirmation bias?
Old 15th March 2014
  #578
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
You are to be commended, sir, for astutely noting that a promotional Kickstarter video is indeed attempting to promote the product.

- c
There are many promotional videos that promote products based on the merits of the product without resorting to needless hype. When a video is so full of hype it makes me doubt that the product has any real merit. Combine that with what I know about audio and human perception and it leaves nothing but unconvincing hype.

But hey, non-technical people often have to base their impressions on hype because they are incapable of judging the technicalities...

Alistair
Old 15th March 2014
  #579
Quote:
Originally Posted by Early21 View Post
Modern rock and its derivatives are based on two speakers, but a concert hall is not.

Like people don't go out to hear live rock bands in concert halls and other places with decent acoustics?
Old 15th March 2014
  #580
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
I was responding to Mr. Gioia..
You don't know if it's cognitive bias..
A different master..
Or they are being nice to Neil...
Those things are in your imagination.
That doesn't make them real.
??

Again, why are you being the jester?

I made it clear that I DO NOT KNOW and I lined up the possibilities. Can you think of other possibilities? I can't. I'm not presenting any of them as fact.

I don't know whether your ability to hear a difference is cognitive bias. I do know that cognitive bias is basically impossible to get around by yourself, thus that's why we do tests like double blind tests.
Old 15th March 2014
  #581
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
Yep...I get it.
So I'll ask again...
Are you implying that Neil Young got each one of these people to lie, exaggerate, or even misrepresent how they feel about PONO's sound quality, so that they can all make more money?
Or that maybe they even all are self- deluded?
All of them?
There are only a few possibilities. One of them is cognitive bias. One is they are unlike EVERYONE before them and can hear a difference... nobody has in a double blind test that I'm aware of. Sure, they could ALL just HAPPEN to be the first people EVER to be able to really hear a difference. That is a possibility.

The other possibilities:
- cognitive bias
- they are being nice
- they are hearing a significantly different master
Old 15th March 2014
  #582
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by playon View Post
Yeah but people are not accustomed to hearing sound that good in a car or on a portable device. They heard playbacks in a studio when their records were done but since that time they probably haven't listened to them on anything better than a CD.

These days a $400 device can sound amazing... why not? The Pono has better converters in than my old Panasonic D/As.
That is the possibility I was considering.
I hope that's it.
Old 15th March 2014
  #583
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
Yep...I get it.
So I'll ask again...
Are you implying that Neil Young got each one of these people to lie, exaggerate, or even misrepresent how they feel about PONO's sound quality, so that they can all make more money?
Or that maybe they even all are self- deluded?
All of them?
Your question is actually clear evidence that you DON'T get it.

Confirmation bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Expressing an opinion colored by confirmation bias is not lying, exaggerating, or misrepresenting. These people may truly believe they hear a difference. They are actually primed to hear a difference, because they stand to gain if they hear a difference. Right in the first paragraph of the Wiki on confirmation bias you will find this gem:
Quote:
People... tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position.
What could be more ambiguous than listening for differences between sample rates... we know from empirical evidence that people can't hear the difference between 44.1 and 192. That's as ambiguous as it gets.

If the device is so great, they should do blind listening tests with it. That is the only reliable way of finding out if it actually sounds better than other playback devices. Same story for playback formats: blind listening tests are the only way to come to any rational, repeatable result.

You can keep arguing about it, but that is fact. Appeals to authority are not facts; they are logical fallacies. It helps sell **** when your "authority" is a bunch of rock stars, but it remains unreliable if you're actually trying to determine the merit of the device or format.
Old 15th March 2014
  #584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
Believe me...I can tell the difference.
I fully believe you sincerely believe you can hear a difference.

I believe you may actually be able to hear a difference. I doubt it, but you MAY.

Because of cognitive bias, you don't know you hear a difference until you test it in a double blind test.

You see? Cognitive bias isn't something you can choose to turn off. It's real and you can't wish it away. Experience has nothing to do with it.
Old 15th March 2014
  #585
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skira's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
Yep...I get it.
So I'll ask again...
43 posts just in this thread in the last 5 hours and you're asking again.
Old 15th March 2014
  #586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
There are only a few possibilities. One of them is cognitive bias. One is they are unlike EVERYONE before them and can hear a difference... nobody has in a double blind test that I'm aware of. Sure, they could ALL just HAPPEN to be the first people EVER to be able to really hear a difference. That is a possibility.

The other possibilities:
- cognitive bias
- they are being nice
- they are hearing a significantly different master
Anything is possible.
That's why I went for one.
To find out for myself.
The romantic in me wants to believe Neil Young is on to something here, but I'll decide for myself when it shows up in October.
I've got two terabytes of hi res files to check it out with.
But what a load of crap these endorsers are going to get if it isn't as amazing as they say it is.
Old 15th March 2014
  #587
Quote:
Originally Posted by Early21 View Post
I would say that the limitations in stereo recordings vs. concert hall are not about bit depth or sample rate.

I will side with Kenny and admit that I can't hear the difference between my 24-bit mixes and the 16-bit mixdowns.

,,,,,,

OK, what did I just say, in short? Sample rate - not very important any more. Bit depth - not really a factor in a mixdown. Hall? The next frontier.
... it is VERY important and highly relevant, psycho acoustically. Replicating frames, deleting silence tricks the mind into hearing stuff that isn't there and vice verca.
Feeling wise that has great influence and impact on how we experience the music and feel it .... so to speak.

see:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXbH-yzGNfg

Old 15th March 2014
  #588
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spurratic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter View Post
I do the same thing sometimes. It's because the frustration wins for a couple minutes, until you calm down and realize it's not worth it, or not effective. Also I would say, you have to be some kind of masochist to have forum posts emailed to you!
Actually, what happened was....I was figuring out how to block Kenny gioia and I saw the option to get email notifications. I assumed I would only get an email if someone directly quoted one of my posts....but then I started getting everything......included posts that people were deleting and thinking nobody saw them. So I should thank Kenny gioia again for teaching me another trick . But then I thought it was only fair to let these posters/deleters know that there's a way people can still read these thoughts you think you are hiding.
Old 15th March 2014
  #589
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
There are many promotional videos that promote products based on the merits of the product without resorting to needless hype. When a video is so full of hype it makes me doubt that the product has any real merit. Combine that with what I know about audio and human perception and it leaves nothing but unconvincing hype.

But hey, non-technical people often have to base their impressions on hype because they are incapable of judging the technicalities...

Alistair
Why, how condesending of you.
Old 15th March 2014
  #590
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by spurratic View Post
Actually, what happened was....I was figuring out how to block Kenny gioia and I saw the option to get email notifications. I assumed I would only get an email if someone directly quoted one of my posts....but then I started getting everything......included posts that people were deleting and thinking nobody saw them. So I should thank Kenny gioia again for teaching me another trick . But then I thought it was only fair to let these posters/deleters know that there's a way people can still read these thoughts you think you are hiding.
I can only imagine what you saw...
Old 15th March 2014
  #591
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

It's just a nice-sounding portable hi-res player. A nicer ipod.

I don't expect it to be epiphanic to anyone who regularly listens to 24/88+ audio in the studio.

I expect it will be a pleasant mid-priced, cool little consumer device.

Mostly I like the ideals and the galvanizing charisma behind the project. I like that this has taken the pursuit of good sound out of the realm of nerdy, hateful, cloistered-in-mom's-basement audiophiles and moved it more toward some kind of cultural penetration.

I like precisely what some in this thread actively don't like, I guess.

- c
Old 15th March 2014
  #592
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
But hey, non-technical people often have to base their impressions on hype because they are incapable of judging the technicalities...
You keep insinuating I am untechnical, which I find highly amusing.

- c
Old 15th March 2014
  #593
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

I imagine I'd be insulted if we were peers.

- c
Old 15th March 2014
  #594
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spurratic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
I can only imagine what you saw...
Now I wonder how often this happens on GS....lol.
Old 15th March 2014
  #595
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
But what a load of crap these endorsers are going to get if it isn't as amazing as they say it is.
This is exactly why there is a tread full of "naysayers" here saying what we're saying.
Old 15th March 2014
  #596
Gear Addict
 
spurratic's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
It's just a nice-sounding portable hi-res player. A nicer ipod.

I don't expect it to be epiphanic to anyone who regularly listens to 24/88+ audio in the studio.

I expect it will be a pleasant mid-priced, cool little consumer device.

Mostly I like the ideals and the galvanizing charisma behind the project. I like that this has taken the pursuit of good sound out of the realm of nerdy, hateful, cloistered-in-mom's-basement audiophiles and moved it more toward some kind of cultural penetration.

I like precisely what some in this thread actively don't like, I guess.

- c
I would have thought there'd be more support behind the device than I've read in this forum... Whether you think it's gods gift to iPods......at least there is a movement to improve the quality of music delivery. That should be pretty exciting for a bunch of gearslutz.
Old 15th March 2014
  #597
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spurratic View Post
I would have thought there'd be more support behind the device than I've read in this forum... Whether you think it's gods gift to iPods......at least there is a movement to improve the quality of music delivery. That should be pretty exciting for a bunch of gearslutz.
Me too. I think we over-estimated the people who frequent this site.

- c
Old 15th March 2014
  #598
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
This is exactly why there is a tread full of "naysayers" here saying what we're saying.
I understand that completely.
I just think people should hear it first...
Old 15th March 2014
  #599
Quote:
Originally Posted by Philter View Post
Your question is actually clear evidence that you DON'T get it.

Confirmation bias - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What could be more ambiguous than listening for differences between sample rates... we know from empirical evidence that people can't hear the difference between 44.1 and 192. That's as ambiguous as it gets.
I keep saying this, I think many like yourself are completely missing the point -- this isn't about the f*cking sample rates. The Pono is a portable device capable of playing back high-res audio in better fidelity than most consumers have ever heard in their lives. It has state-of-the-art D/A converters and a discrete analog path and it will play FLAC files. With half decent earphones or speakers it probably sounds really fantastic.

This is an attempt to raise the bar significantly for consumer audio. I'm not surprised that the musicans were floored by how good it sounded. I am surprised that so many on this forum, of all places, are so relentlessly negative about the whole idea, and are arguing about technical elements, and whether Neil Young is out to trick everyone (please!), when you'd assume as audio professionals they would be all for the entire concept. Maybe Neil is wrong about the 192k sampling rate, but if the thing sounds great who gives a ****?

Old 15th March 2014
  #600
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Quote:
Originally Posted by playon View Post
I keep saying this, I think many like yourself are completely missing the point -- this isn't about the f*cking sample rates. The Pono is a portable device capable of playing back high-res audio in better fidelity than most consumers have ever heard in their lives. It has state-of-the-art D/A converters and a discrete analog path and it will play FLAC files. With half decent earphones or speakers it probably sounds really fantastic.

This is an attempt to raise the bar significantly for consumer audio. I'm not surprised that the musicans were floored by how good it sounded. I am surprised that so many on this forum, of all places, are so relentlessly negative about the whole idea, and are arguing about technical elements, and whether Neil Young is out to trick everyone (please!), when you'd assume as audio professionals they would be all for the entire concept. Maybe Neil is wrong about the high sampling rate, but if the thing sounds great who gives a ****?

Love it.........yes. Typical gearslutz forum though.

The whole issue here is that the industry has been focused on cheap music delivery as an answer to the death of cd sales......and sound quality was not a focus.

This little device just represents the idea that maybe we'll see a focus on sound quality, and that I pretty damn exciting.
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