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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 4th July 2016
  #5401
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
I don't think empirical means what you think it means..
Knowledge based on actual experience/observation

Re-read what I wrote with that understanding
Old 4th July 2016
  #5402
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
Knowledge based on actual experience/observation

Re-read what I wrote with that understanding
My point is to know the limitations of what your experience will tell you. Sciencey stuff.

Unless you are doing a double blind test, you are not doing a comparison. The brain can only remember audio qualities for a matter of seconds. Your head moving a few inches makes a huge difference. So just casually doing a listening test is proving one thing.. The existence and the power of confirmation bias.
Old 4th July 2016
  #5403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
I don't think empirical means what you think it means..
No, it's been redefined to mean, "If I personally notice a difference, then it must be true."
Old 4th July 2016
  #5404
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Re-read what I just said in #5370 .

Conduct your own studies.

All of this stuff is readily available. I find the resistance to this curious.

Another thing I find curious is why hi-res audio is an area people became obsessed with stringent principles of scientific inquiry. Why does it provoke so much antipathy?

If I say "There's this new Thai restaurant downtown, it's great. You should try it!" do you say "Well, have you tested it against other restaurants? And did you control for subjectivity? Did you know which dish you were tasting? Are you sure you don't have confirmation bias?..."

Unless you're the world's worst dork, no.

You say "Thanks, I'll check it out!"

For some reason, you can't say this in audio. It's a drag. We have to go into these tiresome discussions of subjectivity and objectivity.

I was a mastering engineer for 15 years. (I only do it part-time now.) I have some experience in this general area. My general take is Pono and A&K are fantastic devices (I slightly prefer A&K because the headphone amp is stronger) and I'm just gonna recommend people check them out.

Like Thai food.

- c
Old 4th July 2016
  #5405
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I have done an abx between high sample rate bit depth many times with the same result. I definitely encourage people to do the same, as there are software solutions for abx testing.

However, the complexities of testing two separate devices is really too much for a casual user, and doing your own testing without controls in place is worse than not testing at all.
Old 4th July 2016
  #5406
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Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
However, the complexities of testing two separate devices is really too much for a casual user, and doing your own testing without controls in place is worse than not testing at all.
Which would be fine in itself.

The trouble starts when you next try to say that somebody is wasting their money if they believe in a product that hasn't met YOUR testing standards.
Old 4th July 2016
  #5407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
I have done an abx between high sample rate bit depth many times with the same result. I definitely encourage people to do the same, as there are software solutions for abx testing.

However, the complexities of testing two separate devices is really too much for a casual user, and doing your own testing without controls in place is worse than not testing at all.
Casual user? Who's that? lol This stuff really is funny.

@Chad....don't waste your time. Resistance is futile....lol
Old 5th July 2016
  #5408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
Re-read what I just said in #5370 .

Conduct your own studies.

All of this stuff is readily available. I find the resistance to this curious.

Another thing I find curious is why hi-res audio is an area people became obsessed with stringent principles of scientific inquiry. Why does it provoke so much antipathy?

If I say "There's this new Thai restaurant downtown, it's great. You should try it!" do you say "Well, have you tested it against other restaurants? And did you control for subjectivity? Did you know which dish you were tasting? Are you sure you don't have confirmation bias?..."

Unless you're the world's worst dork, no.

You say "Thanks, I'll check it out!"

For some reason, you can't say this in audio. It's a drag. We have to go into these tiresome discussions of subjectivity and objectivity.

I was a mastering engineer for 15 years. (I only do it part-time now.) I have some experience in this general area. My general take is Pono and A&K are fantastic devices (I slightly prefer A&K because the headphone amp is stronger) and I'm just gonna recommend people check them out.

Like Thai food.

- c

That's a terrible analogy. If the restaurants served completely identical food, but you claimed, say, that one tasted better because it was cooked with 100% pure oxygen, then it would be close to what is being claimed about Pono.

Two different restaurants are subjectively different. The claim being made here is that the same audio file sounds better at higher resolution, even though the audio content is beyond the range of human hearing. There isn't really a good comparison to food--you cna't eat the same hamburger twice. So your comparison doesn't make much sense.

Maybe if you claimed this: "the food in restaurant X looks better because they use infrared lighting in the dining room."



Why is that people who don't hear a difference when they conduct careful tests are belittled from "not listening" or "having bad ears" or not having passion for sonic purity etc etc?
Old 5th July 2016
  #5409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Which would be fine in itself.

The trouble starts when you next try to say that somebody is wasting their money if they believe in a product that hasn't met YOUR testing standards.
Snake oil is snake oil. I'm saying I think you are wasting your money if you only think there is a difference, and that difference goes against the evidence.

You are obviously free to do whatever you want though, and believe whatever you want. Certainly there are lots of businesses which are happy to take your money if you care to give it.
Old 5th July 2016
  #5410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Casual user? Who's that? lol This stuff really is funny.
Sorry? Is there a discussion point I'm missing?
Old 5th July 2016
  #5411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
I was a mastering engineer for 15 years. (I only do it part-time now.) I have some experience in this general area. My general take is Pono and A&K are fantastic devices
- c
While science favors verifiable, repeatable, reviewed results instead we see here an implied argumentum ad verecundiam.
Old 5th July 2016
  #5412
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
@Chad....don't waste your time. Resistance is futile....lol
Yeah, I was getting that feeling when some dude condescendingly said "I don't think you know what 'empirical' means." I thought "I don't think you know who I am..."

People who don't believe there are qualitative differences between DA converters: You go your way and I'll go mine.

Peace

- c
Old 5th July 2016
  #5413
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The day is coming closer where it will become common knowledge that what we call 'science' right now is merely a collection of incomplete measurements and guesses trying to describe things, all mingled up together, that some people just can't resist holding onto real tight for comfort. As if they are some sort of absolute 'all there is'.

That day will be frightening for some.
Old 5th July 2016
  #5414
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
The day is coming closer where it will become common knowledge that what we call 'science' right now is merely a collection of incomplete measurements and guesses trying to describe things, all mingled up together, that some people just can't resist holding onto real tight for comfort. As if they are some sort of absolute 'all there is'.

That day will be frightening for some.
Idiocracy is quite frightening indeed.

Alistair
Old 5th July 2016
  #5415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Idiocracy is quite frightening indeed.

Alistair
Hi Alistair. Idiocracy is already here, and in contrast to your belief not the opposite of science.
Old 5th July 2016
  #5416
Quote:
Originally Posted by skira View Post
While science favors verifiable, repeatable, reviewed results instead we see here an implied argumentum ad verecundiam.
From your link:
Quote:
...John Locke, in his 1690 Essay Concerning Human Understanding, was the first to identify argumentum ad verecundiam as a specific category of argument.[3] Although he did not call this type of argument a fallacy, he did note that it can be misused by taking advantage of the "respect" and "submission" of the reader or listener to persuade them to accept the conclusion.[4] Over time, logic textbooks started to adopt and change Locke's original terminology to refer more specifically to fallacious uses of the argument from authority...
Isn't that what you are arguing in claiming 'science' as an authority? You appear to demand that your interpretation of science should be respected and that dissenters should submit to your opinion on that basis.

Note that Locke is interpreted as implying that an argument from authority 'can' be misused - not that it always is.
Old 5th July 2016
  #5417
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
The day is coming closer where it will become common knowledge that what we call 'science' right now is merely a collection of incomplete measurements and guesses trying to describe things, all mingled up together, that some people just can't resist holding onto real tight for comfort. As if they are some sort of absolute 'all there is'.

That day will be frightening for some.

and yet, here we are being shown a "scientific paper" as proof that trained individuals can distinguish high sample rates 60% of the time in classical and jazz

why is this paper being presented to us at all if "science is worthless"? Why do people who think science is a just a 'collection of guesses' feel the need to tout any study? Or is it only a study that seems to reinforce their position? Is this ONE paper the only part of science that is not a "collection of guesses"?

Just like the Creationists have their museum with their own dinosaur bones, everybody wants Science's 'stamp of approval'. The only time people don't like science is when it proves their cherished beliefs wrong.



You know, I would run out and buy a Pono tomorrow if I could choose the 60% of the time that I could actually hear the difference.

I would choose Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday!
Old 5th July 2016
  #5418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
Yeah, I was getting that feeling when some dude condescendingly said "I don't think you know what 'empirical' means." I thought "I don't think you know who I am..."
Does who you are matter to the point (appeal to authority)? Do you understand your own bias? I'd be surprised if someone of your musical stature doesn't but you never know...

Quote:
People who don't believe there are qualitative differences between DA converters: You go your way and I'll go mine.
Of course there are qualitative differences in converters. That's measurable and easily provable.

The actual question is how much of those qualitative difference are audible.

You know how you tell, right? Ya.. measure.
Old 5th July 2016
  #5419
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(DOUBLE)
Old 5th July 2016
  #5420
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Does who you are matter to the point (appeal to authority)? Do you understand your own bias? I'd be surprised if someone of your musical stature doesn't but you never know...
More from Skira's link:
Quote:
...it is also a fallacious ad hominem argument to argue that a person presenting statements lacks authority and thus their arguments do not need to be considered.[14] As appeals to a perceived lack of authority, these types of argument are fallacious for much the same reasons as an appeal to authority.
Ipse dixit?
Old 5th July 2016
  #5421
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
You know, I would run out and buy a Pono tomorrow if I could choose the 60% of the time that I could actually hear the difference.

I would choose Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday!
Me, I'd choose to only listen when I could hear it.. oh wait.. dang never was very good at math.
Old 5th July 2016
  #5422
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Hi Alistair. Idiocracy is already here, and in contrast
to your belief not the opposite of science.
Idiocracy tells the story of a dystopian society where advertising, commercialism, and cultural anti-intellectualism have run rampant and that is devoid of intellectual curiosity, social responsibility, and coherent notions of justice and human rights.

Believing snake oil marketing, like that done for Pono, and blindly trusting your senses despite the fact that science demonstrates time and again that we can not reliably trust our senses, as many seem to do in this thread, fits the bill pretty well if not perfectly. It certainly leads in the direction of idiocracy, not understanding.

As for science, it is a collective endeavour to try and understand the world using the best methods and understanding we have. What do you think it is?

Alistair
Old 5th July 2016
  #5423
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
trusting your senses despite the fact that science demonstrates time and again that we can not reliably trust our senses
Ya that.
Old 5th July 2016
  #5424
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Idiocracy tells the story of a dystopian society where advertising, commercialism, and cultural anti-intellectualism have run rampant and that is devoid of intellectual curiosity, social responsibility, and coherent notions of justice and human rights.

Believing snake oil marketing, like that done for Pono, and blindly trusting your senses despite the fact that science demonstrates time and again that we can not reliably trust our senses, as many seem to do in this thread, fits the bill pretty well if not perfectly. It certainly leads in the direction of idiocracy, not understanding.

As for science, it is a collective endeavour to try and understand the world using the best methods and understanding we have. What do you think it is?

Alistair
I can even pretty much agree with you here. Except as you know I like to allow myself to trust my senses a bit more than you think sensible.

The way you describe science there rings right for me, but so does what I said earlier. They are not mutually exclusive. Point being, it isn't a finished job nor something solid or stagnant, and hence I am always reluctant to lean on the unfinished pile too much, especially when my senses, which respond to more than an unfinished understanding, say something different than what 'science' concludes.

But we know this about each other already and have been here, probably even in this thread. I am too tired to go there full on again. Have a great evening.
Old 5th July 2016
  #5425
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
and yet, here we are being shown a "scientific paper" as proof that trained individuals can distinguish high sample rates 60% of the time in classical and jazz

why is this paper being presented to us at all if "science is worthless"? Why do people who think science is a just a 'collection of guesses' feel the need to tout any study? Or is it only a study that seems to reinforce their position? Is this ONE paper the only part of science that is not a "collection of guesses"?

Just like the Creationists have their museum with their own dinosaur bones, everybody wants Science's 'stamp of approval'. The only time people don't like science is when it proves their cherished beliefs wrong.



You know, I would run out and buy a Pono tomorrow if I could choose the 60% of the time that I could actually hear the difference.

I would choose Thursday, Friday, Saturday and Sunday!
Boy, you have stamina, Joe. Still hard for this I see. Well, to your potential disappointment I have no inclination to 'reinforce my position' on your account. Sorry dude. Have a beer or summet.

Funny this. I can hear/feel a difference in my friend's Pono, but I actually didn't end up loving it, so I don't have one. But according to this thread, that's probably wrong too, as I must have been tripping.....
Old 5th July 2016
  #5426
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Funny this. I can hear/feel a difference in my friend's Pono, but I actually didn't end up loving it, so I don't have one. But according to this thread, that's probably wrong too, as I must have been tripping.....
I don't think anyone said the Pono sounds bad "because of science". It might well be the best sounding portable player around AFAIK. I think you mischaracterise what some of us are arguing for (or against).

Anyway, have a great evening too.

Alistair
Old 5th July 2016
  #5427
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
...the fact that science demonstrates time and again that we can not reliably trust our senses...
Science also demonstrates that a population will exhibit a range of capabilities and attributes - innate/genetic and learnt culturally. Nature vs nurture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
...As for science, it is a collective endeavour to try and understand the world using the best methods and understanding we have...
If the aim of science (as you describe it) is to utilise the best methods then why draw a conclusion before a chi-squared test (or similar) is done? ABX testing is just one tool. Surely any conclusion would include a proviso that different studies could add to scientific understanding?

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
...What do you think it is?
In the context of the thread, what I would refer to as a 'proper scientific study' should include an analysis of distribution over a population and better control of variables and meta-data: the ABX test might be a useful in a subset of enquiry but a more advanced study might rule out (or in) ability across a population in different groups defined by age, exposure, education, etc.

If these analysis tools are available shouldn't we as scientists use them?
Old 6th July 2016
  #5428
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Neil Young still hasn't accepted my ABX blind test challenge. Until he does I'm not buying a Pono and I'm not buying any music from the Pono store.
Old 6th July 2016
  #5429
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KHAN's Avatar
 

The difference between science and belief.

Old 6th July 2016
  #5430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doom64 View Post
Neil Young still hasn't accepted my ABX blind test challenge. Until he does I'm not buying a Pono and I'm not buying any music from the Pono store.
Why not sell it, if people are willing to buy "HD audio?" What the heck. A buck is a buck.

After all, who the heck wants to listen to music underwater?
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