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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 14th March 2014
  #511
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
And many people here are wildly enthusiastic about a product they haven't even heard! Where were these people when audio of the exact same resolution had been offered via other formats for fourteen years?
I have had an SACD player since "Transatlanticism" was released in that format. I like DSD a lot.

Different technology [DSD], but similar greater-than-CD value system.

In terms of my own audio practice, I print my mixes 24/88.2kHz via Burl B2 ADC via AES into a Tascam DA-3000. I have been unable to discern advantages above that rate, but that may more about the limits of my hearing/discernment than the limits of human hearing [a critical distinction many in this thread seem willing to blur.]

I also remastered classic records [Marc Ribot, Fugazi, etc.] from 1/2" ATR102's at the Magic Shop, monitoring via ATC speakers and using EMMLabs converters. I have done blind tests in that environment.

I'm no stranger to hi-res digital.

- c
Old 14th March 2014
  #512
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
The sound of songs like "There's A World" and "A Man Needs A Maid" are FANTASTIC!
Parenthetically, "A Man Needs A Maid" is a very weird song!

- c
Old 14th March 2014
  #513
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
When did I say that you don't know what you're talking about. Everything I said on this thread is my opinion. What works for me and the kind of music I produce. I take no issue with you if you hear something different or if you prefer to focus on this for your needs. My issue is with the video making it sound like all music formats sucked… UNTIL NOW!!!!!!



And others are praising it with the same limited knowledge. Even going as far as to praise it for doing something it doesn't even claim to do.



If that's indeed what we believe, you would have no reason to write it out. It would be easy for anyone reading this thread to see. Except it's not. So you have to summarize our point for some reason.

It's a dialog. A discussion. You're never going to win and neither am I. Enjoy trying to learn from others (as I have) or do something better with your time.



Why should I take their word when I produce records for a living too? This is my world too and I also have experiences with high resolution audio. And in some cases, more than most of them.



Yes. And that's a good thing if you have an open mind.

"It is not our differences that divide us. It's our inability to recognize, accept, and celebrate those differences."

And again. Cut the crap with the facepalm. All you're saying is that you think you know better than the rest of us. And you're the only one who believes that. So kindly keep it to yourself.
The face palm is a sign of frustration.
I never said I know better than anyone.
I don't have to keep anything to myself....and I won't.

I did not mention you in that post.
If you like PONO, great.
If you don't, great.
Whatever.
Old 14th March 2014
  #514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
3. I suggest that all of those artists have heard their own masters and were blown away by the sound of PONO.
If that's true, either it's a NEW master that is not brick walled and is much more natural... OR their ears are shot... IMHO of course.

I don't engage in hero worship. These people are great musicians but they don't necessarily have hearing about 20k just because they are famous.
Old 14th March 2014
  #515
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
Parenthetically, "A Man Needs A Maid" is a very weird song!

- c
I agree. Very dark tune for someone to write in their twenties.
I really just started liking it recently.
I used to skip it when I was younger, but really love it now, ironically for the powerful dynamics of the orchestra.
Which the high res was made for.
C
Old 14th March 2014
  #516
Gear Addict
I suspect that the artists' reactions -- which all seem to be quite genuine -- were provoked not by a simple resolution change, but by the differences in a few very different masters of a single piece of music, including crappy MP3, mediocre original CD master, and brand-spankin'-new 24/192 state-of-the-art master by an expert engineer from either pristine tape or hi-res mixdown. I mean, I kinda doubt anyone was that blown away by simply going from red book to 24/192 or whatever. There's a lot more to a mastering job than the resolution used, as we all know.

That being said, if Pono brings a bunch of nicely mastered recordings to market, it's A-OK in my book. That seems to be the major part of their plan -- providing the best-sounding content possible. The player is just a convenient way for the general public to be able to use it.

Cheers,
Eddie
Old 14th March 2014
  #517
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T'Mershi Duween's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
But for properly mastered conventional material at normal listening levels, I believe most folks will find it impossible to differentiate with statistical significance in true double blind testing.
Don't you mainly listen to lossy streaming audio on low-end, semi-pro gear? How can you tell the difference if you have audio gear that is not very revealing and accurate? Do you know (or remember) what high-end stereo sounds like? Not just studio monitors, but big, full range speakers being driven by expensive tube or solid state amplification? It's quite a different experience than what most of the anti-audiophile crowd know.

To me, the whole purpose of the Pono hardware is to be a "source" with a baseline standard of high quality audio for the masses. This can only be a good thing.

Perhaps those who are so negative should reserve their judgment of the Pono until they have actually heard one themselves?
Old 14th March 2014
  #518
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
Let's introduce a few points:
1/ CD and mp3 quality was based on the available technology/logistics of the time (although some people disagreed with that standard).
2/ Some people (listeners/musicians/producers) think CD/mp3 quality is good enough for the enjoyment of music - some people think higher-quality would provide a better experience of music.
3/ Technological capability/logistics has advanced since CD's/mp3's were introduced.
4/ Most products need to be advertised/hyped to raise awareness about their existence and promote sales and that doesn't necessarily have a bearing on their value.

Based on the points above I have a question: if current music formats/equipment are based on out-dated technology is it not reasonable to make advances and make available higher-quality products to those who think/believe/know that this will make a difference to their enjoyment and appreciation of music (given that those who do not discern any appreciable improvement can choose not to purchase/use that technology)?

I won't be offended if anyone disagrees with the premise- I'm just putting the question out there for discussion.
The whole things is based on the sampling theorem which hasn't changed and will never get outdated. (It is a proven theorem that will always remain true). Also human hearing hasn't changed for the better and, until we start genetically engineer humans, won't improve.

What has improved is the actual implementation of the technology with things like oversampling converters that deal with some of the engineering constraints due to the Nyquist frequency of the 44.1Khz sampling rate being close to the upper limits of the human audible range.

The best evidence available tells us that people can't actually tell the difference between 44.1 Khz audio and higher sampling rates in a well implemented system. The tests are the closest we have to scientific evidence and fits in with all the actual science about perception and sampling. We also know that people are extremely subject to the placebo effect and expectation bias which invalidates any anecdotal "evidence" and subjective sighted listening tests.

Taking all of the above tells us that increasing sampling rates for delivery formats is just a waste of time, energy, resources and money. There are much better things to spend time and energy on that will give much greater improvements to the quality of audio people can listen to.

Alistair
Old 14th March 2014
  #519
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
I don't care what anyone in this thread wants to claim they can hear with 192kHz audio. You can't have the same reaction as those in the video when comparing 44.1kHz 16 bit to 192kHz 24 bit. If there's a difference it is subtle.
Exactly. What impressed them was the new extra-special Pono Master, not the resolution per se. Whatever it was, I want some.

Cheers,
Eddie
Old 14th March 2014
  #520
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie TX View Post
I suspect that the artists' reactions -- which all seem to be quite genuine -- were provoked not by a simple resolution change, but by the differences in a few very different masters of a single piece of music, including crappy MP3, mediocre original CD master, and brand-spankin'-new 24/192 state-of-the-art master by an expert engineer from either pristine tape or hi-res mixdown. I mean, I kinda doubt anyone was that blown away by simply going from red book to 24/192 or whatever.
Since you guys are keen on precision, let's be clear on this: That is a subjective suspicion. A dark speculation made by someone who is observing at a distance. Furthermore, it's made by one who has not inquired of the source as to its veracity.

It is not an empirical observation or statement of objective truth.

- c
Old 14th March 2014
  #521
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
I can't be a convert to PONO, I haven't heard it yet.
I did order one and am looking forward to hearing it.
You are not a convert but you have already ordered it... Funny guy.

Alistair
Old 14th March 2014
  #522
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
You are not a convert but you have already ordered it... Funny guy.

Alistair
Well, he can remain sceptical until he gets to hear it. But he is also open. And hence going to find out for himself. Not sure what's funny about that.
Old 14th March 2014
  #523
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Well, he can remain sceptical until he gets to hear it. But he is also open. And hence going to find out for himself. Not sure what's funny about that.
Allow me to explain. You're in a thread with people who conflate cynicism with intelligence.

- c
Old 14th March 2014
  #524
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
But if there is no technical reason for A to sound better than B, how could it be subjective? The answers would be as random as giving people identical files.

If A is technically better than B then some people will hear the difference and others might not.

But in this case, we have the people who make this gear telling us that there is no purpose to go above 50k - to 60k.

I'm not saying that you're wrong here as far as high res audio. But we can't assume that something is subjective until we can prove that they are even different.

It's certainly possible or plausible that there is a ceiling for sample frequency and that the only difference becomes situations not related to that variable.
Do the people that make gear have their own agenda?
I'm saying that HUMAN HEARING is subjective.
That's why I used Stevie Wonder as an example.
How much does his brain use his ears to compensate for the fact that he's blind?
Ray Charles used his ears to "see", which helped him to get around.
I'm saying a high res audio A/B test on Ray Charles ears and on mine are two different things, due to hearing sensitivity.
Do you think Ray Charles would have a different experience than you when listening to the same high res file?
If the answer is yes, then the results are subjective.
Old 14th March 2014
  #525
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
Allow me to explain: You're in a thread with people who conflate cynicism with intelligence.

- c
It's very popular to appear 'intelligently sceptical'. Openness isn't that cool, way too close to being gullible...wouldn't want to risk being seen as a fool. The internet might collapse.
Old 14th March 2014
  #526
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
Since you guys are keen on precision, let's be clear on this: That is a subjective suspicion. A dark speculation made by someone who is observing at a distance. Furthermore, it's made by one who has not inquired of the source as to its veracity.

It is not an empirical observation or statement of objective truth.
You're right ... that's why I said "I suspect." But I've heard music played via different digital formats and resolutions myself, and my reaction was nowhere near that of any of those artists. I just think there must be something else going on.

But hey, I'm not knocking Pono -- I'm ready to start buying the content as soon as it's out.

Cheers,
Eddie
Old 14th March 2014
  #527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
Since you guys are keen on precision, let's be clear on this: That is a subjective suspicion. A dark speculation made by someone who is observing at a distance. Furthermore, it's made by one who has not inquired of the source as to its veracity.

It is not an empirical observation or statement of objective truth.

- c
Truth.
Old 14th March 2014
  #528
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
You are not a convert but you have already ordered it... Funny guy.

Alistair
Let me clear it up for you...
I AM a convert and proponent of Hi Res audio.
I haven't heard PONO, so I am not a PONO convert.
But I'll know when mine shows up at my door.
Check with me then.
Guess I'd rather be hopeful than pessimistic....
Old 14th March 2014
  #529
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
People who superciliously tout "science" are usually going on "I read somewhere..." as opposed to real-world empirical science.

- c
And people that are religious about things like this tend to make unfunded assumptions and generally make stuff up to fit their belief systems.

Alistair
Old 14th March 2014
  #530
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Well, he can remain sceptical until he gets to hear it. But he is also open. And hence going to find out for himself. Not sure what's funny about that.
How come you get it and he don't?????.
Old 14th March 2014
  #531
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie TX View Post
That being said, if Pono brings a bunch of nicely mastered recordings to market, it's A-OK in my book.
That is the ONLY benefit, and if that happens, then great!!

The truth remains, if they did the same nice mastering to a red book CD... then nobody would notice the difference I'd bet, at least in a blind test. So to me, it's about the mastering.
Old 14th March 2014
  #532
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
And people that are religious about things like this tend to make unfunded assumptions and generally make stuff up to fit their belief systems.
You're certainly entitled to call me out when I start doing that.

- c
Old 14th March 2014
  #533
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czoli's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Exactly. I'd eat my hat if they were listening to CD quality vs 192kHz of the same mix.
Maybe Pono has a sonic maximizer built in, so this thing can be sold to the masses to capture the extra profits ITunes takes in. Maybe all these older guys need some extra royalty checks? They didn't read these links that 192KHz can have a detrimental effect during playback due to ultrasonics affecting amplifiers. Or maybe an expander to recapture all the dynamic destruction done during mastering most tracks to compete in the loudness war.
Old 14th March 2014
  #534
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
And people that are religious about things like this tend to make unfunded assumptions and generally make stuff up to fit their belief systems.

Alistair
What about hopeful people, open to the possibility of positive things? Like the possibility this thing leads us to a place slightly better than before it?

What do they do?
Old 14th March 2014
  #535
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
Let me clear it up for you...
I AM a convert and proponent of Hi Res audio.
Have you participated in a double blind test? I have... I'm curious about your experience.

You understand the science of cognitive bias right?
Old 14th March 2014
  #536
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
No. You suggested that they ignored facts.
"The world is flat".
At one point that was a fact, until we learned more.
Old 14th March 2014
  #537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
Allow me to explain. You're in a thread with people who conflate cynicism with intelligence.

- c
Best.Post.Ever.
Old 14th March 2014
  #538
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
How come you get it and he don't?????.
As anything in life, only a question of which bits you choose to focus your energy on.
Old 14th March 2014
  #539
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Have you participated in a double blind test? I have... I'm curious about your experience.

You understand the science of cognitive bias right?
This entire thread is cognitive bias...
Old 14th March 2014
  #540
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
I appreciate your reasonability.

I don't disagree with your point. What I question is whether this product can succeed if only the people that hear the difference buy it. I think they need a bigger audience which means convincing people they need this device even when they don't hear a difference. We're telling them that there is one.

How would you feel if I told you that 99% of the files on Pono store were recorded at 44.1k or 48k and were up sampled in mastering?

Isn't that the same thing to someone who considers the difference really really subtle yet sold as the answer to all of our sonic prayers?
Sonic prayers?

Isn't the only thing of importance the revelation whether listening to 24bit whatever rate files off a Pono player is a better experience than listening to mp3's on an ipod on a train and a CD player in your living room? Which will reveal itself on trying it out.

The only thing?

I find that to be a possibility. By whatever margin. And if it does something it will make people have sound quality in their awareness as a factor when they have never measured it before or had long forgotten......how is that possibly bad??
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