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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 13th January 2015
  #5041
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PB+J View Post
I've read a couple reviews of it, and they have not all said it sounds "better." What's meant by better anyway? More high end? If it sounds better because it was remastered, that has zip to do with the player itself and everything to do with the remastering. The hi res thing bothers people because it seems like snake oil.

If you think it sounds better, great! Enjoy!
I'm not talking about remasters. Play the same 16 bit file in an ipod and load it onto the Pono and you will notice an improvement in sound quality, listening experience, however you want to qualify it. It is a better player with higher quality components, what is so hard to believe about that?
Old 13th January 2015
  #5042
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PB+J View Post
???? If amps sound different they they don't "measure the same." Sound is a physical thing--it's subject to the laws of physics: it's not fairy dust. If two amps sound different then the difference is measurable--our ears measure it, we have measuring equipment that is far more sensitive, orders of magnitude more sensitive--than our ears. If there is a difference in sound, the difference is measurable.

Your only alternative to this is to argue that there is some kind of unknown physics which can't be measured, or some quality of pressure waves in air that can't be measured. Again I ask what that could possibly be?
what about mics that measure the same, but sound different? Headphones? there are many things that can measure the same but sound different.
Old 13th January 2015
  #5043
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cakewalk View Post
what about mics that measure the same, but sound different? Headphones? there are many things that can measure the same but sound different.
I don't think those mics measure the same. What are you guys meaning when you say "measure the same?" Because you look at accurate and detailed frequency plots for mics and---they look different.

I don't think even any two mics of identical make and brand, will actually measure the same: There will be detectable differences both above and below the threshold of hearing between two U87s.

Can somebody give me an example of two mics "measuring the same," and what measurements were taken? I mean I believe some ad will show a plot that looks "the same" as some other mic, but I'd want to see an objectively taken set of measurements, by an unbiased party.
Old 13th January 2015
  #5044
All Hail PONO and others like it,
Happy to transfer over my work as it was intended
Old 13th January 2015
  #5045
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PB+J View Post
I don't think those mics measure the same. What are you guys meaning when you say "measure the same?" Because you look at accurate and detailed frequency plots for mics and---they look different.

I don't think even any two mics of identical make and brand, will actually measure the same: There will be detectable differences both above and below the threshold of hearing between two U87s.

Can somebody give me an example of two mics "measuring the same," and what measurements were taken? I mean I believe some ad will show a plot that looks "the same" as some other mic, but I'd want to see an objectively taken set of measurements, by an unbiased party.
I dont have time to find the thread but I recall seeing someone compare a Neumann TLM107 to another Neumann mic that had the same freq response, but due to the tensioning of the diaphragm and the distance to the back plate the TLM107 sounded much smoother in the top end. Cant mics have identical technical measurements but due to other factors sound different? What about speakers/monitors, they can have the same specs but sound different due to cone material, cabinet construction, etc?
Old 13th January 2015
  #5046
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Actually the discussion about the merits of PONO has changed dramatically since its main competitor, the iPOD classic, has been discontinued.

Suddenly the Pono seems much more attractive!

Does anyone know how it deals with playlists and whether it plays Apple lossless files (as well as FLAC)?
Old 13th January 2015
  #5047
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cakewalk View Post
I dont have time to find the thread but I recall seeing someone compare a Neumann TLM107 to another Neumann mic that had the same freq response, but due to the tensioning of the diaphragm and the distance to the back plate the TLM107 sounded much smoother in the top end. Cant mics have identical technical measurements but due to other factors sound different? What about speakers/monitors, they can have the same specs but sound different due to cone material, cabinet construction, etc?
Right--it sounds different because because the "measurements" aren't identical. I mean, somebody had to be able to measure the tension of the diaphragm and see that it was higher. Somebody measured the distance to the backplate--in other words, the two mics don't measure the same. If the difference is audible in a recording, then it's clearly "measurable:" that is, it has been detected and quantified and reproduced; it's been measured physically by whoever noticed the backplate distance and it's been measured in the AD/DA process. If you can hear it in a digital file, then it has been measured--detected, quantified, reproduced--by sampling. It's not an unmeasurable difference in any sense.

I'm happy to agree that small differences in mics can matter. Any two mics with electrical components are going to sound slightly different just because the resistors are specc'ed within a specific tolerance range. But those are measurable differences--physically measurable, detectable by the ears and by electro-mechanical instruments.

The argument being made here is that there are unmeasurable differences which we can actually hear but which science has no knowledge of. I find this preposterous, because the physics of both sound and hearing have been extremely well understood for well over a century.

If you argue that you can hear something on, say, a vinyl record that you can't hear on a WAV file, my answer would be what you are hearing is the pleasing euphonic distortions introduced by vinyl, which are themselves completely measurable.

The alternative is to believe that, say, tiny invisible sound fairies from the 4th dimension fly up into your ears but don't fly up into microphones because microphones are metal, and sound fairies hate metal. Science cannot detect these fairies.

Chris from Airwindows, who I respect much for his work and like for his stubborn and generous iconoclasm, thinks that higher sample rates make an audible difference. I don't hear this difference, and I've tried doing AB comparisons. That could very well be the fault of my ears or my equipment: maybe I'm doing it wrong. But while I can't speak for Chris, I don't think he would argue that the difference between low and high sample rates is unmeasurable. Chris?
Old 13th January 2015
  #5048
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UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by cakewalk View Post
what about mics that measure the same, but sound different? Headphones? there are many things that can measure the same but sound different.
No there aren't. Either the measurements were badly done or not comprehensive enough. Things that truly measure the same sound the same. Things that sound different, measure different. Pretty simple really.

Alistair
Old 13th January 2015
  #5049
Gear Addict
 
Avast!'s Avatar
:oD

Well great.

44.1/16 bit playback and 24/96 playback don't measure the same.

Therefore, they sound different.










Good luck with that one.
Old 13th January 2015
  #5050
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avast! View Post
Well great.

44.1/16 bit playback and 24/96 playback don't measure the same.

Therefore, they sound different.

Good luck with that one.
You've kind of invented a statement that Al didn't make. Could say that you've 'affirmed the consequent', which is a formal logical fallacy

Last edited by -tc-; 13th January 2015 at 10:26 PM..
Old 13th January 2015
  #5051
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Avast!'s Avatar
thanks for non-on-fire reply

Quote:
Originally Posted by -tc- View Post
You've kind of invented a statement that Al didn't make. Could say that you've 'affirmed the consequent', which is a formal logical fallacy
I was moreso replying to PB+J, and largely facetiously.

More seriously, Pono is bringing the idea of 'better' dacs and amps to the public ear, as stated above. Hi-res is an explainable bullet point, even if clumsily over-presented.

As per measurements, though human hearing is somewhat finite, I doubt that even 200 years of science has crafted tools to measure ALL that we get from sound and music. Again, as above, where's the Sweet meter?
Old 13th January 2015
  #5052
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avast! View Post
Well great.

44.1/16 bit playback and 24/96 playback don't measure the same.

Therefore, they sound different.










Good luck with that one.
Well if I pointed out that fact that sounds above 96 aren't audible, would you respond that they actually are? Would be back to magic audio fairies?

Let's say I have two whistles. One sounds at 4 khz and the other sounds at 4khz AND 24 khz. They don't measure the same--but they sound the same

Except to my dog

Hmm, that wasn't hard at all!

Seriously, if they sound different I would attribute it to aliasing: that is, artifacts in the audible domain.

Why does this stuff only happen in audio? Imagine I have two copies of a photo of Rupert Neve. Image A is has a hidden cartoon of Harry Nyquist that flouresces in infrared light, Image B does not. Would anyone, anywhere in the world, argue that the one with the cartoon looked different, and that we were somehow seeing the Nyquist cartoon with our pineal gland, or the fluid in our inner ear, or by means of some magical sense unkown to science? No--only in audio land do these kind of claims get made.

I didn't see the post about the sweet meter, but I'm entirely confident that whatever makes one file "sweet" could be measured and quantified--assuming it survives blind testing.

Last edited by PB+J; 13th January 2015 at 10:51 PM..
Old 14th January 2015
  #5053
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doom64's Avatar
I've challenged Neil Young to an ABX listening test at NAMM to settle this. I have not heard back from him or his representatives.

As far as an iPod vs. the Pono, no one was disputing that the Pono hardware is better. I'm sure it is. We're talking about whether 16-bit/44.1 files sound different than 24/192 files.
Old 14th January 2015
  #5054
It's a great sales pitch, that's for sure.

Bluetooth interfacing is way better than Aux in. The DACs I'm sure vary depending on the playback system but that's just part of the investment the person is making in their audio experience.

Plus Bluetooth interfacing is far superior in regards to control too. I can change songs from my steering wheel, which is nice when listening to iTunes radio or something similar where you can skip.

Measuring the unmeasurable, good album title.
Old 14th January 2015
  #5055
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Santiago's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by doom64 View Post
I've challenged Neil Young to an ABX listening test at NAMM to settle this. I have not heard back from him or his representatives.

As far as an iPod vs. the Pono, no one was disputing that the Pono hardware is better. I'm sure it is. We're talking about whether 16-bit/44.1 files sound different than 24/192 files.
In that case, considering the price, it's not much of a controversy is it? I'm a bit skeptical about 24/192 being a game changer, but, as a whole package, the Pono looks like a good deal to me.
Old 14th January 2015
  #5056
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avast! View Post
I doubt that even 200 years of science has crafted tools to measure ALL that we get from sound and music. Again, as above, where's the Sweet meter?
Sure, we can't measure personal preferences, though I can't really see the connection with audio
A.
Old 14th January 2015
  #5057
It's a drag when every contrary journalist picking up rocks to look for something nasty has to take a dump on Pono.

Sheesh! A positive move forward from MP3 and you get burnt at the stake for it!
Old 14th January 2015
  #5058
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Jules, I can assure you that every "journalist" knocking Pono probably plays the stock market and doesn't want the value of their streaming investments to drop. I spent way too much time hanging out in SillyCon Valley...
Old 14th January 2015
  #5059
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

How bereft.
Old 15th January 2015
  #5060
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doom64's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jules View Post
It's a drag when every contrary journalist picking up rocks to look for something nasty has to take a dump on Pono.

Sheesh! A positive move forward from MP3 and you get burnt at the stake for it!
Only because Pono tried to burn CDs at the stake and pretended there were no other high fidelity personal music players already on the market. They claimed CDs are underwater listening and that perturbed many an engineer.
Old 15th January 2015
  #5061
Quote:
Originally Posted by doom64 View Post
...and that perturbed many an engineer.
...so perturbed that many engineers bought one to hear their music as it was intended?
Old 15th January 2015
  #5062
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
...so perturbed that many engineers bought one to hear their music as it was intended?
Unless it was intended for distribution at 44.1
Old 15th January 2015
  #5063
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Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PB+J View Post
Unless it was intended for distribution at 44.1
Most music was archived at higher resolution formats than 44.1. So it is ready for distribution at higher rates when such a distribution system is developed.
Old 15th January 2015
  #5064
As most music these days including remasters is brickwalled to death I can't see how a higher resolution is going to make it sound any better. I mean how much high res is out there? Not enough, I'm sure. Hope that changes though. In the meantime I'll keep ripping pre-brickwall era CDs to my ipod. I might get a PONO in the future if the price is right.
Old 15th January 2015
  #5065
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

What I want is a Pono player that interacts with something like the mobile portion of the Qobus streaming service. They have everything in 16/44.1 and also loads of 24bit stuff for streaming. A player with the quality of the Pono that can take the place of my mobile phone in that game would be the most beautiful thing, Then we only need such streaming to pay the artist and that would be the new fantasy world complete.

Only, that's not the way to sell loads of remastered hi res files to everyone......
Old 30th January 2015
  #5066
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sleepingbag's Avatar
david pogue has some good things to say about the pono and its extraordinary audio-enhancing technologies brought to you by reknown audiophile neil young:

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/it-was-on...496883039.html

Old 30th January 2015
  #5067
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I haven't heard Pono yet (I have an Astell&Kern), but I bought one for a friend who lives in Japan. She and her husband love it and have gotten into buying hi-res music.

With the Astell&Kern, I can tell you hi-res masters are a stunning experience.

My band mixed our album to Burl B2 at 24/192. I love the sound. We recently had it mastered at The Lodge and the 192 version of the album is pretty amazing on the A&K.

I'm hoping the Pono is as good as the A&K. I bet with the Ayre circuit design, it's probably pretty great.

- c
Old 30th January 2015
  #5068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepingbag View Post
david pogue has some good things to say about the pono and its extraordinary audio-enhancing technologies brought to you by reknown audiophile neil young:

https://www.yahoo.com/tech/it-was-on...496883039.html

" Each subject put on nice headphones — Sony MDR 7506 — and listened to three songs of different styles "
lol.
and he had them running thru, get this, a radio shack a/b switch. double lol...
Old 30th January 2015
  #5069
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
I haven't heard Pono yet (I have an Astell&Kern), but I bought one for a friend who lives in Japan. She and her husband love it and have gotten into buying hi-res music.

With the Astell&Kern, I can tell you hi-res masters are a stunning experience.

My band mixed our album to Burl B2 at 24/192. I love the sound. We recently had it mastered at The Lodge and the 192 version of the album is pretty amazing on the A&K.

I'm hoping the Pono is as good as the A&K. I bet with the Ayre circuit design, it's probably pretty great.

- c
I have friend with the Astell and Kearn and he recently compared it to a pono and said he regrets spending the bread on the A&K.
Old 30th January 2015
  #5070
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cakewalk View Post
" Each subject put on nice headphones — Sony MDR 7506 — and listened to three songs of different styles "
lol.
and he had them running thru, get this, a radio shack a/b switch. double lol...
He's a dummy. Ignore that guy.

- c
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