The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4561
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
It isn't fear, it's just an opportunity to elevate oneself by calling the others gullible fools. Hard to resist for some.
Exactly. It's the same tired old audiophile argument that boils down to "my gear is way more expensive than yours" vs. "it sounds no better than cheap stuff so I'm smarter than you."

Both sides of these arguments are generally dead wrong.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4562
Lives for gear
 
bogosort's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I just think your side of the debate has been unnecessarily personal and aggressive. . .
It's human nature to think that your side is the "good guy" side. That's what cognitive biases do. But the reality is that compared to most internet debates on "holy war" subject matter, this one has been quite civil. Has every single post been a model of gentility? No, of course not. But if you're going to call out one side, then you need to call out the other, as well.

Just a few posts down from yours:

Quote:
Originally Posted by cakewalk View Post
There is something intriguing about the hysterical nature of the anti pono crowd.
And one post after that:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
It isn't fear, it's just an opportunity to elevate oneself by calling the others gullible fools. Hard to resist for some.
Personally, that stuff doesn't bother me -- I'm neither hysterical nor a cyber bully, so why would it? But the way you, chrisso, are painting the picture is a bit disingenuous.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4563
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cakewalk View Post
I'm not sure how they could be threatened by this thing unless they work for a competitive software/ media player manufacturer?
You don't have to be personally threatened by something to object to it on behalf of others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cakewalk View Post
The fact that they used a silly underwater metaphor to explain sample rates has made some of them absolutely bonkers. They seem to forget the marketing is directed at consumers.
So it's OK to bull**** people as long as they don't know any better? The scuba image depicts a major change when going between 96K and 192K. This has been shown not to be true. But it's OK because it's aimed at consumers...

Chris
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4564
Lives for gear
 
bogosort's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Exactly. It's the same tired old audiophile argument that boils down to "my gear is way more expensive than yours" vs. "it sounds no better than cheap stuff so I'm smarter than you."

Both sides of these arguments are generally dead wrong.
Agreed on the last part. But which do you think is more insulting:

1) insinuating that a person is ignorant, or
2) insinuating that a person is so insecure that they must spend their time on the internet proving others wrong

Depending on context both can be insulting, but the second one has a little more bite to it, aye?
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4565
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris93 View Post

So it's OK to bull**** people as long as they don't know any better? The scuba image depicts a major change when going between 96K and 192K. This has been shown not to be true. But it's OK because it's aimed at consumers...

Chris
This has been shown to not be true? Really? In the context of playing out of the Pono player? Where?
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4566
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

What can I say, insecure people really get off on putting others down.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4567
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cakewalk View Post
The fact that they used a silly underwater metaphor to explain sample rates has made some of them absolutely bonkers. They seem to forget the marketing is directed at consumers. so pono used simplistic pictures and images to explain something technical. Sure, it's a silly, over the top picture, but don't let it ruin your day.
It doesn't ruin my day any more than someone getting taken by a ponzi scheme. I won't be taken in by it. But my mother or my kids might, and that's where I draw the line.

I find it striking the lengths that some people will go to defend the "underwater listening" thing, even though they know it's dead wrong. It's not stretching the truth like most good marketing. It's an outright lie.

The water metaphor indicates a significant and obvious "night and day" difference in audio quality. Anyone who has done a true a/b/x test knows that is just not true.

Dismissing the lie because it's for "consumers" is inexcusable.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4568
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
What can I say, insecure people really get off on putting others down.
Yes, and I find it most common that insecure people can't stand it when others disagree. They have to be "right."
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4569
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Exactly. It's the same tired old audiophile argument that boils down to "my gear is way more expensive than yours" vs. "it sounds no better than cheap stuff so I'm smarter than you."

Both sides of these arguments are generally dead wrong.
I totally agree, but what is interesting to me is the people who think Pono is probably a waste are also, for the most part, willing to be proven wrong if there IS something audibly different.

There seems to be a rigidity in the pono supporters that I don't see in most of those who are critical of the marketing and the approach.

Like most people with a Pono problem, it's based on their deceptive marketing and outright lies. Underwater listening, "sounds like vinyl," "night and day difference," etc. Without those claims there would be a lot less controversy.

Going back to the masters and applying less peak limiting would be loved by just about everybody! If Pono came with a list of best practices including dynamic range and other mastering recommendations, and did away with the lies and marketing BS, I think most of us would be a lot more excited about it.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4570
Lives for gear
 
TREMORS's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
It isn't fear, it's just an opportunity to elevate oneself by calling the others gullible fools. Hard to resist for some.
Thats kind of the same as suggesting music consumers arent smart enough to know what they are missing.

Id argue that the average consumer absolutely does know about hi-res options and they simply dont care.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4571
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4572
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I'm ok with 44.1khz, but am curious about 96khz as I use that in my studio.
Not remotely interested in 192khz.
Pono says you are wrong!

Pono says 96k is still underwater!
only 192k is 'coming up for air' and really...
384k is where the really 'good stuff' is at!

you disagree with the Pono schtick as much as I do
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4573
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cakewalk View Post
...The fact that they used a silly underwater metaphor to explain sample rates has made some of them absolutely bonkers. They seem to forget the marketing is directed at consumers. so pono used simplistic pictures and images to explain something technical. Sure, it's a silly, over the top picture...
but the Underwater metaphor is NOT a "simplification" of what is going on with higher sample rates!

It is a deliberate and INVERSE misrepresentation of what is going on with higher sampling rates with respect to "audio quality".

every engineer who has experimented with trying to hear the differences blind comes to the conclusion of: "diminishing returns". The "forties" seem to be fine for delivery, many converter experts say around 60k would be ideal, some of us use 96k as "best practice" - if only because 60k is not available. But where ARE the humans who have consistently heard the difference between 44.1 and 96k in a public blind test? They have yet to step forward, so even if they exist, they are rare. And 96k vs 192k? The differences are even harder to pick out, perhaps impossible. 192k vs 384k? Fuggedaboutit!

But the Pono people claim the exact opposite curve of the hockey-stick. They have "simplified" their promotional material to say that each doubling of the sample rate gives an even greater improvement in sound. "Increasing returns" instead of "diminishing returns".

This is not a "simplification" or even a "dumbing down" - this is the opposite of what 'improvements' the consumer is really going to hear as he doubles and quadruples and octuples his sample rate. It is a misrepresentation.

Either they are fools or they are liars. Take your pick.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4574
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
...They have "simplified" their promotional material to say that each doubling of the sample rate gives an even greater improvement in sound...
Where do they say that? I'd appreciate a link. Thank you.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4575
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
Where do they say that? I'd appreciate a link. Thank you.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4576
Lives for gear
 

I asked my 16 year old what he thought about pono and if he knew about hi res music. He said he was aware if it but to his understanding it is not a huge leap in sound quality. He also does not think most consumers are aware of or care about hi res. He also thinks the average joe will not care enough to drop 400.00 on a new media player where the audio is only slightly better. He feels most people are fully satisfied with iPods/iPhones for their music delivery.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4577
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
Where do they say that? I'd appreciate a link. Thank you.
also some more quotes from the video:

Quote:
"96 is so superior (to CD) and even that paled in comparison (to 192)… yeah, the jump was exponential"
Quote:
when you switch from 192 to CD you are like "whoa"
Please bear in mind that the FACTS are that actual studies done with both ordinary people and golden ears show very very very few people can differentiate between a high rate mp3 and a CD, and even fewer people can differentiate between a CD and 96k. If anyone can! The jury is still out. So any comparison statement that "lumps" mp3s together with CDs qualifies as a misrepresentation. This is where the greatest differences lie, perhaps where the only perceptible differences lie, not where the differences hardly matter.

And any comparison that lumps CDs together with 96k is out to lunch. Because remember only 192 is actually 'breathing air'!! As for 384k, I don't think even the Pono people have any appreciable amount of natively-sourced 384k material. Why it is even included on their chart?

lumping:
Quote:
when you listen to the CD or MP3 version…
Quote:
"CD's are small"
Quote:
when you listen to the CD, its like someone twanging on a f---ing rubber band
If that is true, why can't all those AES members pass the blind test of CD vs high rate? Why can't they just pick the one that has the "twanging on a f---ing rubber band" sound?

There are also other examples of these implications strewn throughout their promotional material. It can hardly be an accident.

ps- This is the LAST time I will watch that damn video. Or go to their website. If you want further examples of their baloney, go find them yourself.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4578
Lives for gear
 

They have posted longer form individual artist testimonials pulled from the edited one. Interestingly enough, there is not a pono to be seen. Neil is playing files from some sort of tablet. The artists go into greater detail about hearing music as they heard it in the studio. Plus you can hear what tunes they are playing from the outside of the car. Interesting comments about the state of music today. Not as much talk about resolution but lots of complaints of how bad mp3s and CDs sound.
PONO
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4579
Gear Head
 
bandpass's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
As for 384k, ... Why it is even included on their chart?
Pono 2
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4580
Gear Head
 
bandpass's Avatar
 

They acknowledge that some can't hear the difference between underwater and listening in air, and they think that's okay!?!?

Old 3rd May 2014
  #4581
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bandpass View Post
They acknowledge that some can't hear the difference between underwater and listening in air, and they think that's okay!?!?
well it is getting to the point where the Elephant in the room is hard to ignore

it's not just this thread at Gearslutz. Their assertions about the difference sample rates make are getting them into hot water with a lot of people. Such as the people who already have investigated the difference sample rates make and found nothing like what Pono is talking about.

If they are selling their DAC and their headphone amp, fine, but they should just drop the sample rate hyperbole, otherwise, they are selling placebo. And elitism. If you can't hear the difference, that will be YOUR fault. Maybe your ears are shot, or maybe you just don't "love music" enough.

But that's okay, really!
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4582
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cakewalk View Post
He said he was aware if it but to his understanding it is not a huge leap in sound quality. He also does not think most consumers are aware of or care about hi res. He also thinks the average joe will not care enough to drop 400.00 on a new media player where the audio is only slightly better. He feels most people are fully satisfied with iPods/iPhones for their music delivery.
Well it is settled then. Your 16 year old obviously speaks for music consumers everywhere. Case closed.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4583
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
It isn't fear, it's just an opportunity to elevate oneself by calling the others gullible fools. Hard to resist for some.
This is exactly right. It's not about debate or discussion or possibilities or science or even . . . music. It's just about being able to stick it to someone so they can say to themselves "gee I really stuck it to that guy." The issue doesn't even matter, although it does seem that any kind of discussion about audio quality brings them out in force.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4584
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post

you disagree with the Pono schtick as much as I do
Absolutely.
Maybe you've been too consumed with winning to notice I posted several times that I agreed with 99% of what you've been saying earlier in the thread. (Not so much recently, which has become more shrill IMO)
My first few posts in the thread were extremely skeptical on Pono.

I don't agree with the name calling, and the characterisation of people with a different opinion as numbnuts.
And I've mainly been posting about the blanket labelling of anyone interested in Pono (like the artists endorsing it) as half deaf, high, or greedy liars.


So, having debated furiously the marketing, the sample rates, the player, the motives, I think there is not much more to say until more people hear the product.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4585
Quote:
Originally Posted by mixmixmix View Post
I don't see the need to separate participants of this thread into 2 camps - Pro Pono and Anti Pono. Nothing is ever black and white. Instead we should focus on what unites us - passion for audio gear.
Hear, hear.
I get the passionate argument. I get the natural instinct that one is in the right, whether you are or not.
I don't get the name calling attempting to dismiss people with a different opinion as devious or dim.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4586
Quote:
Originally Posted by bogosort View Post
But if you're going to call out one side, then you need to call out the other, as well.
There have been a lot of personal posts in the thread I agree.
the two quotes you example do not call the 'anti-Pono' posters ill educated, fight picking trouble makers, or 'glade-sprayers'.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4587
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bandpass View Post
They acknowledge that some can't hear the difference between underwater and listening in air, and they think that's okay!?!?

The dog photo is classic considering at least the dogs can hear the difference.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4588
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Well it is settled then. Your 16 year old obviously speaks for music consumers everywhere. Case closed.
Lol, I'm actually on the side of let's wait and see what it sounds like. I was just curious as to what the average 16 year old thinks.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4589
Lives for gear
 

One of the longest threads the history of the internet has to offer....the:

"Did we land on the moon" thread on Unexplained Mysteries - Paranormal Phenomena and the World's Greatest Unexplained Mysteries in the "Conspiracy Theories" section is at 888 pages long at 15-posts per page (13,315 total posts).

Come on we get there. Just 735 to go!
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4590
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cakewalk View Post
Lol, I'm actually on the side of let's wait and see what it sounds like. I was just curious as to what the average 16 year old thinks.
Why don't you ask one?
(I'm sure you don't think your son is "just average"...)
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump