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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4531
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TREMORS View Post
Lots of people in the world may have caps or bandwidth limits or limited access that make the quality/cost tradeoffs a bit different.
I think those of us in the US are not used to the metered access that exists in many other countries.... and, with net neutrality on the wane, it may happen here too.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4532
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpro View Post
This reminds me of the VCR Betamax war turned on its head depending on what side you stand on. In the end the lesser format won out on pricing of course.
It had nothing to do with price and everything to do with corporate politics. It was Sony against (almost) everyone else, and Sony lost. It was a shame because Beta was so much better.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4533
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
But that doesn't take into account the different filter converter technology in the Pono player......you're arguing from the context of a standard converter with brick wall filters.
Fair point, but is the tail wagging the dog? Are they using a different sort of filter because they can or are the sample rates higher because the filter needs to be different?

Do the filters do anything different within the audio band? Is one flatter than the other?

Chris
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4534
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
It had nothing to do with price and everything to do with corporate politics. It was Sony against (almost) everyone else, and Sony lost. It was a shame because Beta was so much better.
I remember it being price too, and wikipedia suggests it was....

Videotape format war - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4535
Quote:
Originally Posted by TREMORS View Post
I dont think the file size on personal storage is much of an issue.
Its downloading it.
Lots of people in the world may have caps or bandwidth limits or limited access that make the quality/cost tradeoffs a bit different.
That's very true.
At the moment I have little interest in Pono's re-issue album library either.
It's a shame Young didn't launch Pono, and launch a drive to release new and exciting artists in a higher sample rate format at the same time.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4536
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Like I said, it's at least as much about selling updated reissues that are owned by Neil's generation of artists as it is about audio quality.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4537
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Like I said, it's at least as much about selling updated reissues that are owned by Neil's generation of artists as it is about audio quality.
Yep. Absolutely.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4538
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cakewalk View Post
But supposedly there is a also difference in the pono amp and converters which significantly affects the sound.
Including the sound of the mp3's it is capable of playing? Or are they deliberately going to have something inside the Pono which DEFEATS the "whatever-it-is" when you play an mp3? And kicks back in when you play a high-res file?

Quote:
"For comparison's sake, I press pause on the Pono player in the middle of Neil Young's "Heart of Gold" and load up the same song on my iPhone, switching the headphones from jack to jack."
"and carefully match the volume"??

the danger to Pono's mythology is when the first non-stupid reviewer gets one and finally tests it in the ways that we all are all arguing about for 150 pages. Playing the mp3 version vs the CD version vs the 96k version vs the 192....of the same master... all from within the Pono. Since it is capable of doing this, what is this man's problem?

"Warm" or not, all the files should be going through the SAME playback chain. Many of us here strongly suspect the "hi-res" part is bogus. What happens then? Does the 'warmth' make mp3's sound amazing too? If the insistence on High-Res being the 'source' of the betterness is exposed, it will be to the detriment of their store and to their credibility.

The Geek Wave product makes no bones about the fact that what they are selling is an "indoor" DAC, and a kick ass headphone amp. Not the idea that 384k audio is "8 times better sounding" than CD.

Quote:
"But Pono does sound different. It surfaces new things to the listener. As many have pointed out, the sound is "warm," not unlike the analog sound of high-quality vinyl. "
I predict that once it is "out" - it will be subject to some rather intense scrutiny. Woe betide the Pono people if someone tests it and finds a smiley faced EQ or psychoacoustic enhancers "built in" to their "accurate" DAC
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4539
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Dpro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
You seem to continually project on to me.
I never criticised anyone seeking the scientific proof.
I'm also not accepting anything on blind faith.
I'm just saying people will make their own mind up, more often than not by listening to the product.

Personally, I'm in a middle ground. I probably won't be buying Pono, but there is a slim possibility I might. Why you keep quoting me and commenting as if I'm a full on believer, discrediting those who aren't, is a complete mystery.
Wow............

Chris quite being so damn defensive. I am not projecting on you . If you think I am then you need to check your own perception of things. You did attack my position on several occasions in which I responded. I could go back and pull those posts up to show you.

I left this thread because of a lot of that. It grew tiring. Now I don't know what went down in the last few days, but you do seem to take responses a bit way to personally.
You also in my opinion seem to be changing position from your prior stance. You did indeed speak and act like a full on believer.Whether you choose to admit that or not is on you.
Do not try to pull this BS of accusing me of putting you in the very position you actually took.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
It had nothing to do with price and everything to do with corporate politics. It was Sony against (almost) everyone else, and Sony lost. It was a shame because Beta was so much better.
Really lol brief synopsis time. Sony came up with Alpha which was the VCR format. They also came up with Beta. When they came up the VCR format they already were working on Beta as well and knew it would be better. Along comes Panasonic/Technics who offers to buy Alpha for I believe the number at the time was 50 mil. Sony goes great we will sell it to you. Thinking we have Beta it's better. In the meantime Sony had to iron out a few things with Beta. Panasonic/Technics turned around and brought the VCR format to market immediately and started selling millions of units. Meanwhile Sony beings out Beta which was also more expensive and winds up fighting and uphill battle to win the consumer who is already sold on buying the less expensive VCR better quality Beta be damned because it cost more. This is even taught I business classes . That is what went down. If you want to call Sonys decision to sell off the VCR format corporate politics then in some weird conspiracy idea maybe. It was more financial. They saw an opportunity to make some money and keep the better technology. Thinking the better tech would succeed.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4540
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
Including the sound of the mp3's it is capable of playing? Or are they deliberately going to have something inside the Pono which DEFEATS the "whatever-it-is" when you play an mp3? And kicks back in when you play a high-res file?


"and carefully match the volume"??

the danger to Pono's mythology is when the first non-stupid reviewer gets one and finally tests it in the ways that we all are all arguing about for 150 pages. Playing the mp3 version vs the CD version vs the 96k version vs the 192....of the same master... all from within the Pono. Since it is capable of doing this, what is this man's problem?

"Warm" or not, all the files should be going through the SAME playback chain. Many of us here strongly suspect the "hi-res" part is bogus. What happens then? Does the 'warmth' make mp3's sound amazing too? If the insistence on High-Res being the 'source' of the betterness is exposed, it will be to the detriment of their store and to their credibility.

The Geek Wave product makes no bones about the fact that what they are selling is an "indoor" DAC, and a kick ass headphone amp. Not the idea that 384k audio is "8 times better sounding" than CD.



I predict that once it is "out" - it will be subject to some rather intense scrutiny. Woe betide the Pono people if someone tests it and finds a smiley faced EQ or psychoacoustic enhancers "built in" to their "accurate" DAC
The Geek wave says it improves audio, including mp3s. If the pono also has a better dac and a better headphone amp, as they have been actively marketing, why can't it sound better as well?
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4541
mixmixmix
Guest
joeq - I agree , something is up with "warmth" of Pono. It could be that Neil Young pono tracks are remastered versions as well as harmonic exciters / Smiley EQ etc. inside Pono.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4542
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpro View Post
Do not try to pull this BS of accusing me of putting you in the very position you actually took.
Which was what position?
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4543
Quote:
Originally Posted by mixmixmix View Post
joeq - I agree , something is up with "warmth" of Pono. It could be that Neil Young pono tracks are remastered versions as well as harmonic exciters / Smiley EQ etc. inside Pono.
And we don't know…
The funny thing is one often get's criticised for saying things like 'warmth' anyway. What is 'warm', what is warm audio?
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4544
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixmixmix View Post
joeq - I agree , something is up with "warmth" of Pono. It could be that Neil Young pono tracks are remastered versions as well as harmonic exciters / Smiley EQ etc. inside Pono.
Wow, speculate much?
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4545
mixmixmix
Guest
Every day, and proud of it.

chrisso - "warm audio" is audio with pleasing mid-range.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4546
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
Including the sound of the mp3's it is capable of playing? Or are they deliberately going to have something inside the Pono which DEFEATS the "whatever-it-is" when you play an mp3? And kicks back in when you play a high-res file?


"and carefully match the volume"??

the danger to Pono's mythology is when the first non-stupid reviewer gets one and finally tests it in the ways that we all are all arguing about for 150 pages. Playing the mp3 version vs the CD version vs the 96k version vs the 192....of the same master... all from within the Pono. Since it is capable of doing this, what is this man's problem?

"Warm" or not, all the files should be going through the SAME playback chain. Many of us here strongly suspect the "hi-res" part is bogus. What happens then? Does the 'warmth' make mp3's sound amazing too? If the insistence on High-Res being the 'source' of the betterness is exposed, it will be to the detriment of their store and to their credibility.

The Geek Wave product makes no bones about the fact that what they are selling is an "indoor" DAC, and a kick ass headphone amp. Not the idea that 384k audio is "8 times better sounding" than CD.



I predict that once it is "out" - it will be subject to some rather intense scrutiny. Woe betide the Pono people if someone tests it and finds a smiley faced EQ or psychoacoustic enhancers "built in" to their "accurate" DAC
Why berate the author? He had no control over what was loaded into the pono. Did you read the article?
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4547
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cakewalk View Post
The Geek wave says it improves audio, including mp3s. If the pono also has a better dac and a better headphone amp, as they have been actively marketing, why can't it sound better as well?
I am not saying it can't sound superior to a phone. At $400 for something that can't even receive a text, it damn well better. I am saying that the reason it might sound better than a phone will have nothing to do with 192kHz sampling rate. I certainly think an improved DAC and improved amp have a much better chance of making an audible improvement than doubling than quadrupling the sample rate with the same DAC.

and to say they have been "actively marketing" this aspect is a crock. It is mentioned... but compared to the relentless flogging of sample rates and the Underwater metaphor that 'more data' is 'more better'? No way. Remember, the best DAC and headphone amp in the world will not sell ONE Hi-Res download from the Pono Store.

If it turns out that DAC and headphone amp is primarily where the "good sound" comes from, why not just apply a better DAC to your current FLAC files? Or even your mp3's?

From day one, this thing has had a bad smell. None of the Glade that people are spraying in this thread is making that smell go away for me. For the Glade-sprayers to FINALLY stop arguing "sample rate" and latch on to the 'analog back end' as the "source" of Pono's amazing sound is IMO, an admission that they smell it, too.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4548
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cakewalk View Post
Why berate the author? He had no control over what was loaded into the pono. Did you read the article?
Because he compared apples to oranges. Literally his apple iPhone and his yellow-orange Pono. He has one in his hands and he did not check out their number one marketing claim - that the Hi-Res files beat the "CD" every time with a factor of "wow".

He had one in his hot little hands and he did not check the most obvious thing.

The Pono has no USB? No way of loading files on it? Was it a special "crippled" Pono? That would be like lending a car for a review but the gas tank is welded shut so you can't check what mileage it gets.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4549
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
For the Glade-sprayers to FINALLY stop arguing "sample rate" and latch on to the 'analog back end' as the "source" of Pono's amazing sound is IMO, an admission that they smell it, too.
Nonsense.
An acknowledged expert came into the thread and completely ruled it out.
On top of that, anyone who dared to hypothesize about the sample rate (even 96khz) was treated like a moron raging against well known, well established science.

It frustrates me that you want to have it both ways.
People are personally ridiculed by a gang of four or five posters for disagreeing with an 'expert' and maybe for naively questioning the science. People were typecast similar to religious nutcases (audio creationists), then someone questioned the quality of the schooling system. Like we done learned nuttin gud at skool because we aren't sure if 44.1khz is IT.
So, no wonder they daren't bring it up again.
You say it's because they now agree with you that Pono stinks. Personally I come to a forum for interesting chat in my leisure time.
I don't need to be told by several people I'm an idiot. So i think most of the people who wanted to talk about the sample rate have been scared away from the debate.
If you want to have a fair debate, you could start by not calling the posters who have an open mind 'Glade-sprayers'.
This is the thing that mystifies me.
If it's so obvious, just make your points respectfully, or walk away from the debate if it winds you up so much. If it's all so obvious, why call people names like creationists and glade sprayers?
If someone has no idea how to tune a snare drum, I don't have to think of a funny name to call them.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4550
Gear Head
 

Afaik the 'video war ' was between Beta and VHS. Beta had propably better picture quality but VHS had all the movies and could make longer recordings.
VHS was developed by JVC.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4551
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Then when they daren't bring it up again, you say it's because they agree with you that Pono stinks.
I am not saying Pono stinks, it is probably a decent player, no worse than the Fiio or the Astel and Kern. We shall see.
I am saying their advertising and promotion stinks.
They chose to make Sample Rates their battlefield. We shall see about that as well.

Quote:
So i think most of the people who wanted to talk about the sample rate have been scared away from the debate.
if they have been "scared away" from talking about the sample rates, it's because that side of the debate has bupkas. By their own inability to identify the high-sample rate material from 16/44. By the apparent inability of anyone to identify the high sample-rate material in a blind test.

The fact that the talk has shifted to DACs IS indeed evidence that everyone now admits that at the very least, hi-res is not "easy" to hear. The DAC is offered to 'explain' how people could be so impressed with the sound even though humans are having a really hard time telling 96 or 192 from 44.1. For their comparison, how do I know they didn't go out to find the mp3 player with the ****tiest DAC and amp they could locate and put that up against the Pono?

The Pono people certainly had the opportunity to make a clear, fair and direct comparison of sample-rates the centerpiece of their advertising. Or even just make that information available to the technical community. They chose not to. I am not saying the "Pono stinks". But I am saying that tactic stinks.

Quote:
If you want to have a fair debate, you could start by not calling the posters who have an open mind about Pono 'Glade-sprayers'
to have an 'open mind' is one thing. Being an apologist for obvious monkey business is quite another. That is just having a closed mind but on the 'other side' of the debate.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4552
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

If you think your mind is open, Joe, you need to bang your head against something solid to wake yourself up.

May I come in and spray some Glade for a second and say that from what I recall not many in the thread were EVER particularly in favour of 192. I for one was gunning for 24/48 before hearing about the Pono converter's special attributes.

Which you and your open mind seem to consistently ignore, Joe. On a normal brick wall converter 192 is dog whistles and added other issues and no, I am not partial to the idea. On this thing to MY open mind it still seems like the jury is out whether it can utilise a 192 file in a different manner with a different result.

But go ahead, spray some more of your own, so that we can all spray a load and at least make this thread stink to high heaven, whether Pono does or not.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4553
I'm ok with 44.1khz, but am curious about 96khz as I use that in my studio.
Not remotely interested in 192khz.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4554
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
Being an apologist for obvious monkey business is quite another.
I just think your side of the debate has been unnecessarily personal and aggressive, which the above is just another example.
Your life won't be effected by Pono. I doubt mine will. I'll probably never hold one in my hand.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4555
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
Including the sound of the mp3's it is capable of playing? Or are they deliberately going to have something inside the Pono which DEFEATS the "whatever-it-is" when you play an mp3? And kicks back in when you play a high-res file?


"and carefully match the volume"??

the danger to Pono's mythology is when the first non-stupid reviewer gets one and finally tests it in the ways that we all are all arguing about for 150 pages. Playing the mp3 version vs the CD version vs the 96k version vs the 192....of the same master... all from within the Pono. Since it is capable of doing this, what is this man's problem?

"Warm" or not, all the files should be going through the SAME playback chain. Many of us here strongly suspect the "hi-res" part is bogus. What happens then? Does the 'warmth' make mp3's sound amazing too? If the insistence on High-Res being the 'source' of the betterness is exposed, it will be to the detriment of their store and to their credibility.

The Geek Wave product makes no bones about the fact that what they are selling is an "indoor" DAC, and a kick ass headphone amp. Not the idea that 384k audio is "8 times better sounding" than CD.



I predict that once it is "out" - it will be subject to some rather intense scrutiny. Woe betide the Pono people if someone tests it and finds a smiley faced EQ or psychoacoustic enhancers "built in" to their "accurate" DAC
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
Because he compared apples to oranges. Literally his apple iPhone and his yellow-orange Pono. He has one in his hands and he did not check out their number one marketing claim - that the Hi-Res files beat the "CD" every time with a factor of "wow".

He had one in his hot little hands and he did not check the most obvious thing.

The Pono has no USB? No way of loading files on it? Was it a special "crippled" Pono? That would be like lending a car for a review but the gas tank is welded shut so you can't check what mileage it gets.
Ok, so you didn't read the article. It was in a group setting at a hotel courtyard with lots of people and one pono being passed around. At least the guy took a moment to try something else. People are going crazy on here because no one is comparing this to anything in the testimonials, or they don't know what they are comparing it to. The average consumer will compare this to their iPod and apparently it will sound better, like you say, as it should. It's being marketed as an audiophile media player with better hd amp and dac. Every article I have read mentions this! I am trying to keep an open mind and doing the research before making a conclusion but you should check your facts before letting the bug up your butt control what you say.
Here is another quote from the CEO since you didn't read the article. It is consistant with all of their active marketing.

"Hamm and his colleagues are quick to point out that they're not trying to start a format war. Nor are they getting into the streaming music subscription game. Instead, they want to offer consumers what Young repeatedly refers to as "freedom of choice." That is, the option to purchase music in a format that sounds as warm and high-fidelity as 180-gram vinyl, but with the convenience music fans have come to expect since Steve Jobs first held up Apple's little white gadget on stage in 2001

To get superior sound, Hamm tells me that they "get the highest quality digital master possible" from the record labels. In many cases, that means they're getting an album at a higher quality than the CD version. But not always. The range of quality is "all over the place" but generally always better than the MP3s and streaming services. Whatever the purest available master happens to be is what they'll sell through the PonoMusic store.

The device itself is engineered to play back high-resolution audio, not unlike the bulkier home systems for which audio geeks pay top dollar. Built in conjunction with Ayre Acoustics, the player promises to recreate the original analog sound using state-of-the-art circuitry, and what the company says is the best digital audio converter (DAC) on the market.

Hamm declines to compare the hardware to the inner workings of Apple's iPod (about which he says he knows very little), but says that the Pono Player is the first device to include audiophile-grade engineering in a portable form factor."
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4556
mixmixmix
Guest
"Freedom of choice"? At $24.99 a pop?

Neil Young, thank you for the

"audiophile-grade engineering in a portable form factor"

The best pitch ever. Crystall ball and bass traps are included.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4557
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I just think your side of the debate has been unnecessarily personal and aggressive, which the above is just another example.
Your life won't be effected by Pono. I doubt mine will. I'll probably never hold one in my hand.
There is something intriguing about the hysterical nature of the anti pono crowd. I'm not sure how they could be threatened by this thing unless they work for a competitive software/ media player manufacturer?
It's pretty simple, it's marketed as an audiophile media player for consumers. There a good chance it sounds better than an iPod/iPhone which is totally dismissed as "well it should"! The fact that they used a silly underwater metaphor to explain sample rates has made some of them absolutely bonkers. They seem to forget the marketing is directed at consumers. so pono used simplistic pictures and images to explain something technical. Sure, it's a silly, over the top picture, but don't let it ruin your day. As has been mentioned, millions of people have no idea that hi res exists. This will be their first exposure to it. Sink or swim, silly or not, the marketing makes sense for what they are trying to do.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4558
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cakewalk View Post
There is something intriguing about the hysterical nature of the anti pono crowd. I'm not sure how they could be threatened by this thing unless they work for a competitive software/ media player manufacturer?
It isn't fear, it's just an opportunity to elevate oneself by calling the others gullible fools. Hard to resist for some.
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4559
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixmixmix View Post
"Freedom of choice"? At $24.99 a pop?

Neil Young, thank you for the

"audiophile-grade engineering in a portable form factor"

The best pitch ever. Crystall ball and bass traps are included.
It is a pretty good pitch. If one is marketing a new portable hi res media player to the consumer, it sets a high bar and also helps to create expectation bias. Apparently it was very successful for the kickstarter campaign. How would you market it differently?
Old 3rd May 2014
  #4560
mixmixmix
Guest
I don't see the need to separate participants of this thread into 2 camps - Pro Pono and Anti Pono. Nothing is ever black and white. Instead we should focus on what unites us - passion for audio gear.
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