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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 1st May 2014
  #4441
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Chrisso, I can't believe you have been here this long and you still appear to have such thin skin.
Just wanna be treated the same as everyone else.
I just spent about 10+ pages arguing that artists do have the necessary critical listening skills. You just spent the same 10 pages character analysing me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post

Chrisso, please. You really are completely illogical, full of very strange sidebars that are irrelevant, and sometimes seemingly incapable of following a discussion, preferring to go on strange flights of fancy.

Etc, etc, etc….
Old 1st May 2014
  #4442
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

I could give you 10 pages but you'd have to pay me.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4443
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post

It's like debating what the Sasquatch population of North America is. Some people say Bigfoot is real, some people say it is a myth, but surely we can all agree that there aren't large cities full of them.
You've never been to Oregon, have you?
Old 1st May 2014
  #4444
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
The problem with the analogy is there aren't any groups of people who paint together each specializing in one color for this analogy to work.

But you do make some good points.
I agree that it's not an exact analogy. But there are many musicians who make entire records by recording or programming all the parts themselves very much like a painter working alone on a painting. So I think the analogy is useful in thinking about whether artists develop facility in perceiving the frequency spectrum they are working with.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4445
Lives for gear
 

Does anybody know which converters they use ?
Old 1st May 2014
  #4446
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

I just listened to Damn The Torpedo's on my AT's. My latest copy, check out the date I got it.

Damn that is a religious experience! So much better than any church.

I wish Pono played records.
Attached Thumbnails
Launch of Pono-petty.jpg  
Old 1st May 2014
  #4447
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Just wanna be treated the same as everyone else.
I just spent about 10+ pages arguing that artists do have the necessary critical listening skills.
Maybe you are right, but I know a many artists who have NO CLUE when it comes to audio quality. They know when something is very WRONG but telling the difference between different sample rates? No way.

I know you have worked with a few artists from the video, and you would know better than I about those, but I really think you are making a big generality that is likely not necessarily true. I don't buy it across the board.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4448
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarsBot View Post
I agree that it's not an exact analogy. But there are many musicians who make entire records by recording or programming all the parts themselves very much like a painter working alone on a painting. So I think the analogy is useful in thinking about whether artists develop facility in perceiving the frequency spectrum they are working with.
...maybe... newer artists are more apt to have well developed hearing, because they tend to do more work at home and develop those skills over time? I'd buy THAT...
Old 1st May 2014
  #4449
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post

I know you have worked with a few artists from the video, and you would know better than I about those, but I really think you are making a big generality that is likely not necessarily true. I don't buy it across the board.
How many artists on that level have you worked with in the studio?
Old 1st May 2014
  #4450
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
...maybe... newer artists are more apt to have well developed hearing, because they tend to do more work at home and develop those skills over time? I'd buy THAT...
Almost everyone is working at home now though.
Grohl, Beck, (and MacCartney for example).
I gave the example earlier in the thread of three older drummers (40+) all recording themselves and delivering tracks to remote clients.
You just can't work enough if you can't work on your own and deliver sounds that are top quality.

You need two things for it to work….
Do more work at home (you're right), but also the experience to know what a recording engineer would do, and what sounds are required. Younger artists often haven't quite learnt the difference between a good sound, and an excellent sound.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4451
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
How many artists on that level have you worked with in the studio?
Point is you know what you know, not what you assume. Same as me. You know about the people you have worked with in an involved level, enough to determine their level of involvement, enough to evaluate their listening skills. You can't magically extrapolate that to a bunch of artists you haven't worked with. Don't assume...
Old 1st May 2014
  #4452
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Almost everyone is working at home now though.
I keep reading in interviews how a lot of these people have a guy who does all their engineering or at least does a lot of their setup. That's the point. Don't assume just because they work at home they do their own engineering, and that they necessarily have mad listening skills.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4453
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
I keep reading in interviews how a lot of these people have a guy who does all their engineering or at least does a lot of their setup. That's the point. Don't assume just because they work at home they do their own engineering, and that they necessarily have mad listening skills.
Don't assume that just because they might have 'a guy' there, that they don't have 'mad listening skills'......also, reading interviews won't tell you anything about how the discourse is likely to go between a very established artist and 'a guy'......
Old 1st May 2014
  #4454
Gear Head
 

I'm a little over 60, and my hearing, always somewhat deficient in high frequencies (talking to women at parties was a non-starter even 40 yrs ago :( ) now rolls off from about 8k. How much worse would it be if I had spent many, many, many hours of my life standing right in front of on-stage speaker stacks? Damn, it was bad enough just being in the audience ...and I didn't go to that many big rock concerts.

It doesn't mean that I don't love music still, and it doesn't mean that I don't have opinions about audio equipment and enjoy comparison and criticism of it. it does mean that I am realistic about my aural ability: don't ask me about cymbal shimmer, because it just isn't there for me without EQ. It also means that I am a little doubtful about some of those guys who not only spent a lot more ear-shattering time than I did, but some of also did a lot more brain-cell destruction time than I did.

This is a generalised view. I am certainly not trying to malign any individual, because the chances are that I still love their music. No, I never met them, and I appreciate that some some you have done. But I still would not choose them as arbiters of fine detail in recorded music, and the infamous video confirms that for me.

Not, somebody posted, targeted at audiophiles? That's curious, because, notwithstanding the audiophile bull, they are another breed of experienced listener (Somebody once wrote, the audiophile can hear the difference, just as the engineer can, but the engineer can put numbers on it). So, they have the best sound ever, but they are not targeting the best-sound-ever market? That is one of the weirdest things yet in this long-running-before-it's-even-happened story.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4455
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
You can't magically extrapolate that to a bunch of artists you haven't worked with. Don't assume...
Again, you keep saying 'assume' whereas what I'm actually doing is making an observation based on years of experience.
I started at the bottom - worked with a bunch of different people.
I spent several years in the mid-level (indie/alternative) - worked with a bunch of different people.
I finished up at the level of the people in the video - worked with a few well known people.
At each stage the standards demanded stepped up significantly.
You are assuming way more than me, because you haven't transitioned from hobbyist, to mid-level professional, to the hothouse of the artist, working in the best studios with the most demanding standards.

You're guessing.
It's just funny that every guess you post supports a view discrediting the artists in the video - but you're open minded.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4456
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Old 1st May 2014
  #4457
………..
Old 1st May 2014
  #4458
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
That's curious, because, notwithstanding the audiophile bull, they are another breed of experienced listener (Somebody once wrote, the audiophile can hear the difference, just as the engineer can, but the engineer can put numbers on it). So, they have the best sound ever, but they are not targeting the best-sound-ever market? That is one of the weirdest things yet in this long-running-before-it's-even-happened story.
Audiophiles are people who have spent a lot of money on a home hi-fi or entertainment centre. That's it.
Some may have incredibly well trained ears, some may just like expensive toys.
It's not a job you are measured on, like producing your own album, or recording half an album yourself.
You reputation and pay depend on your sonic awareness if you record yourself professionally, or produce professionally. Nothing like being an audiophile.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4459
mixmixmix
Guest
I'm glad that Thad E Ginathom shares my view that most of the listeners in Pono test have compromised hearing. Spending years in front of blistering PA systems can only damage the hearing. For some reason no mastering engineers were invited to the test. People who are qualified to judge hi-rez formats, and who put final touches on work of Neil Young, Elvis Costello, Dave Grohl and other participants of this test.

Let's consider another point. How many of those participants were high on drugs while listening to Pono?

Being high may be very detrimental to ability objectively judge sound quality.

If a manufacturer truly believes in the superiority of their product, they can mail out "review copies" to respected representatives of audio community for the review. Fair and objective review. that did not happen neither.

We are not talking about new Mc Donalds burger here, when TV commercial is enough for people to take a note and taste it at their next McDonalds visit.

We are talking about $400 dollar gadget, which will need to be fed with $24.99 remasters of material we already have.

This advertising campaign is not very fair to consumer. Pono advertising campaign is a comedy.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4460
Quote:
Originally Posted by mixmixmix View Post
Let's consider another point. How many of those participants were high on drugs while listening to Pono?

Oh man.
You're making my point for me.
The Pono campaign might have used some overblown marketing claims.
The video might not be rock solid evidence.
But the sheer persistence and energy invested over 15+ pages to discredit the people in the video just comes across as posters wanting it to fail, rather than simply being sceptical.

I mean, when was the last time the 'rock stars' in the video had their ears syringed?
Also, many of them had long hair covering their ears. That could effect the sonics right.
Pono is an American product being made by an Irish tech company. And everyone in the video was either American or had irish ancestry, oooooh.

We could keep going….
Old 1st May 2014
  #4461
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Audiophiles are people who have spent a lot of money on a home hi-fi or entertainment centre. That's it.
Some may have incredibly well trained ears, some may just like expensive toys.
It's not a job you are measured on, like producing your own album, or recording half an album yourself.
You reputation and pay depend on your sonic awareness if you record yourself professionally, or produce professionally. Nothing like being an audiophile.
You hit the wrong point. I'm talking about the potential porno market, as well as the potential "high-res" (audiophiles already love the term) market.

They would hardly be counting on selling to audio professionals, because that market is too small for a consumer gadget. Any mention of pros in my post was purely incidental. Why aren't they focussing on audiophiles? Don't they have the confidence?

Of course it would take a lot more confidence to sell to target professionals

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixmixmix
I'm glad that Thad E Ginathom shares my view that most of the listeners in Pono test have compromised hearing.
I'm saying it is very likely. I do want to be careful that I am not making any specific assertion of fact about any particular individual.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4462
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
. Why aren't they focussing on audiophiles? Don't they have the confidence?

Of course it would take a lot more confidence to sell to target professionals


.
Because neither is their target, the public is. How is the thing going to make any dent in music listening in general any other way? It's all inclusive, not for nerds only. That's the whole point.

And @mixmixmix....how many are on drugs?



Old 1st May 2014
  #4463
Airwindows
 
chrisj's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
I just listened to Damn The Torpedo's on my AT's. My latest copy, check out the date I got it.

Damn that is a religious experience! So much better than any church.

I wish Pono played records.
Capture 'em to 192K or 96K and play 'em back on the Pono! Should be the same thing.

Mind you, the musicians might not WANT you to be able to 'tape' your records that easily…
Old 1st May 2014
  #4464
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixmixmix View Post
Let's consider another point. How many of those participants were high on drugs while listening to Pono?

Being high may be very detrimental to ability objectively judge sound quality.

lol


Yes it may be, it may also be just the opposite.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4465
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I want this thread to go on forever and ever and ever. *slips noose around neck*

- c
Old 1st May 2014
  #4466
Airwindows
 
chrisj's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
I want this thread to go on forever and ever and ever. *slips noose around neck*

- c
I was just about to congratulate you for it on Twitter!
Old 1st May 2014
  #4467
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Again, you keep saying 'assume' whereas what I'm actually doing is making an observation based on years of experience.
Right, and it's fair enough, except you're extrapolating it beyond what is reasonable IMO. I just disagree that you have to make such a wide sweeping generalization. The people you have worked with, who are hands on and make audio decisions, have great hearing... those are extremely valid observations. Extrapolating that out to "assume" that all the rest of the artists have the same hearing... unfair, lots of assuming. Sorry I can't agree.

As I alluded to, I have met a couple of major artists who couldn't listen their way out of a wet paper bag.

Quote:
You're guessing.
It's just funny that every guess you post supports a view discrediting the artists in the video - but you're open minded.
I am indeed guessing for the most part. But it's not discrediting them to not assume they are all golden ears. It's just real.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4468
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Let me repeat that we don't make recordings for "most" listeners.

We make recordings for that one listener who happens to be a reviewer, broadcast music director, audiophile, artist, concert promoter or club-owner who gets excited about what they hear and then tells their friends, puts the artist on a show or does something else that significantly advances the artist's career.

There is only one standard in professional music recording which is simply just as good as we can possibly make it. "Good enough" is not in any successful pro's vocabulary.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4469
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixmixmix View Post
I'm glad that Thad E Ginathom shares my view that most of the listeners in Pono test have compromised hearing. Spending years in front of blistering PA systems can only damage the hearing.
All of us have compromised hearing (except those among us who are very young and haven't stressed their ears). It's just a matter of how much.

Quote:
If a manufacturer truly believes in the superiority of their product, they can mail out "review copies" to respected representatives of audio community for the review. Fair and objective review. that did not happen neither.
It's not even a shipping product yet, so that is an unfair charge. They will, indeed.

Quote:
This advertising campaign is not very fair to consumer. Pono advertising campaign is a comedy.
You think "underwater listening" is comedy?
Old 1st May 2014
  #4470
mixmixmix
Guest
As John Galsworthy said, "Life is a tragedy for those who feel, and comedy for those who think".

When I deal with advertising claims, I think. So, yes, Pono is a comedy.
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