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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 30th April 2014
  #4411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by color View Post
Wow, clearly one of the most - if not the most - off topic threads in the history of the internet. Guiness Book here we come!
So page 147, what are you going to unveil? Pornstars vs. Rockstars, the final debate?


Keep it moving ... there is some great creative potenial going on here!
Who is going to volunteer to score this thread?!?
Old 30th April 2014
  #4412
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Timothy Lawler View Post
The fact that the mention of the Pono/Porno naming issue has caused so much discussion makes me think even more strongly that it will affect its success. I could have it totally backwards though... music listeners might actually like the thought that listening to Pono is like "audio porno", haha. Who knows?
If it looks good, feels good and is well made, it qualifies as gadget porn. Sounding good would help!

If not, then it is just a rather seedy enterprise.

I had, and have, both possibilities in mind in calling it Porno.

It has got to be called Porno... even by those who like it. The only people who won't call it Porno are those who take it, and themselves, dreadfully, horribly seriously. Lets see now, who was in that video...

heh
Old 30th April 2014
  #4413
Quote:
Cookie Marenco blames bad sound for the decline of the music industry. Now she hopes that high quality audio files and an innovative recording technique will help revive an interest in sound quality.

BBC News - Cookie Marenco: Pioneer of high quality digital music recording
Old 30th April 2014
  #4414
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When Hi-Res digital is compared to compressed lossy mp3, it will obviously be much better. When "Normal-Res" lossless 16/44.1 is compared to mp3 it too sounds much better.


Chris
Old 30th April 2014
  #4415
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Old 1st May 2014
  #4416
Gear Nut
 

wow... 148 pages of people arguing semantics, when this is what it all boils down to:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris93 View Post
When Hi-Res digital is compared to compressed lossy mp3, it will obviously be much better. When "Normal-Res" lossless 16/44.1 is compared to mp3 it too sounds much better.
Chris
Nothing wrong with lossless 16bit/44.1 CD quality.

Anything - ANYTHING - below that is noticeable.

Blind testing higher resolutions doesn't show any benefit, time and time again. Personally, I prefer vinyl, but that's just me - I grew up in the vinyl age.

I'll probably buy a PONO. I never bought an iPod, iPhone, or iPad. I'm a MAC user (I haven't owned a PC since the mid 90's), so I'm not anti-apple, I just don't like the sounds that come out of iPods. I still use CD player in my car. Sounds great! I've hated the sound of mp3's since I first heard them in the 90's.

PONO isn't geared towards audiophiles, though. They make a big point about that. So the arguing here is moot. Is it a gimmick? Absolutely not. I can tell the difference in lossless CD Quality and MP3's. If I could load an iPod with lossless wav or aiff files, I'd have one, but I can't - I'm PONO's prime market.

Old 1st May 2014
  #4417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by le_fuzz View Post
If I could load an iPod with lossless wav or aiff files, I'd have one, but I can't - I'm PONO's prime market.

You are mistaken. iPods play wav or aif.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
And to believe that some artists are any less than sound specialists themselves is naive.
Most artist are not sound specialists, and the ones featured in the videos are songwriters/singers. Did you actually *hear* what Springsteen said?! "Naive" is when you consider those people sound specialists and forget what they actually are. It's a whole different craft, it's a whole different way of using your ears. Have Elton John engineer his own albums or see how he can pick out super high bitrates in blind shootouts. It is so naive to think that because these guys are great in one area of music, then they must be some kind of authority in another. And there was so much nonsense being said in that part of the video, that it made the whole thing feel pretty gimmicky, like marketing hype more than anything.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4419
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chrisj's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Topgear View Post
Have Elton John engineer his own albums or see how he can pick out super high bitrates in blind shootouts.
I'll remind you guys that most people (and clearly these musicians) will be quite happy to have a playback system sound observably better than the alternative 'more often than not', but 'more often than not' will blatantly fail the '20 out of 20 blind test' attitude. If I'm not mistaken, 'more often than not you can tell the difference' will get as low as 75% confidence any difference could be observed.

Which is absolutely fine with me, but let's be clear about the expectations here.

As for consumer expectations, 'more often than not you really notice a difference' is more than enough to sell a ton of the things, and rightly so. Heck, I'd be down with 'some of the time you REALLY notice the difference'. I wouldn't pay $10,000 for that but nobody is being asked to…
Old 1st May 2014
  #4420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
...
I searched for: "crowdsourcing pono competitor" because I was looking for a story about the Geek Wave and I forgot the name of the product but I knew it was crowdsourced

Number one hit top of the page was an article about crowdsourcing for PORN movies. Neil Young was #2. But no request for disambiguation.

Try it.
Yeah, I see a similar result, except Pono is at the top and the movie hit is second. I hope you took it as humour, because that was how it was intended.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4421
Quote:
Originally Posted by Topgear View Post
Most artist are not sound specialists, and the ones featured in the videos are songwriters/singers. Did you actually *hear* what Springsteen said?! "Naive" is when you consider those people sound specialists and forget what they actually are. It's a whole different craft, it's a whole different way of using your ears.

Who is 'Topgear'? Have you sat in the studio with Springsteen to know?
And do we have top go here again? OK, discount Beck, Costello and Grohl if you must, but there are recording engineers and producers in the video, not, repeat NOT ONLY singers and songwriters.
It's really as simple as that.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4422
Quote:
Originally Posted by le_fuzz View Post

Blind testing higher resolutions doesn't show any benefit, time and time again.
I think that's what people have been arguing about for most of 100 pages.
If you google Pono (not Porno). even in the critical blogs there is no 100% agreement that higher bit rate or sample rate has no effect.
(Caveat: again I'm not agreeing with either side, just pointing to the disagreement online).
Likely we will have to see how Pono actually performs, with a wide variety of users, to get a better idea.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4423
Airwindows
 
chrisj's Avatar
Yeah, and I think we've painfully worked out a consensus among those actually good at this sciency stuff that,

failure to exceed 95% confidence in blind testing is not proof there is no benefit

so even the statement 'Blind testing higher resolutions doesn't show any benefit, time and time again' can't stand.

This is not a binary thing, as much as some would like to insist it is: and public acceptance is not dependent on it being a binary thing. Public acceptance and general usefulness rests on it delivering some form of benefit enough of the time. I think you could even establish how much of a benefit it was, perhaps by putting a ADC/DAC stage between Pono and the listener (heck, you could wire up the output to three jacks, one being Pono, one being a pad into 16 bit ADC/DAC and carefully level-balanced amplifier, and the third being X. Hardware ABX)

I think some listeners WOULD be able to get 95% confidence from that, but honest, you don't need such high confidence levels. That's not how it works.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4424
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Who is 'Topgear'?
Here we go again. CASSIC ad hominem response.

If you believe "most artists are not sound specialists" is a false statement, then make your counterpoint.

Nobody is questioning those in the video who ARE "sound specialists."
Old 1st May 2014
  #4425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisj View Post
so even the statement 'Blind testing higher resolutions doesn't show any benefit, time and time again' can't stand.
It's not a binary thing, but it IS data. If I can't reliably tell the difference in double blind testing then I personally don't care about the difference.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4426
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Here we go again. CASSIC ad hominem response.
Not really. Topgear is making a definitive statement.
Quote:
Most artist are not sound specialists, and the ones featured in the videos are songwriters/singers.
Would love to at least see: Personally I don't think most artists are sound specialists, instead. But if definitive statements are made, one then wonders who the person is making the statement, and their reasoning for doing so.

Quote:
If you believe "most artists are not sound specialists" is a false statement, then make your counterpoint.
I have been doing so, page after page.

Based on actual experience with some of the artists in the video, many others of a similar ilk, and generally decades in the industry. I'm not guessing or making what sounds like definitive statements based on a hunch, an imagination, or something I read in interviews.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4427
'Most artists' in the modern age are recording themselves. Most artists of the level in the video are not being funded by a label and directed by the label. Most are funding their own projects, then licensing to a label.
Most artists of the level in the video - are choosing the studio, and/or outfitting their own studio, they are choosing who to collaborate with (recording engineer maybe, record producer perhaps, mastering engineer). Most artists at this level have control over the sound of their records, and final say on the mixes and mastering.
You can keep seeking to discredit the people in the video - it's transparent.
But the simple fact is, the industry has changed dramatically since the 80's and 90's.
Artists are skilled at all levels of the process - they have to be. Artists are also empowered and in control more so than ever.
The idea that the people in the video write songs and sing and are handicapped in most other areas beyond that, belongs in the 1960's.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Not really. Topgear is making a definitive statement.
What kind of statement he is making is irrelevant as to whether you are making an ad hominem attack.

The definition is attacking the person instead of the point. Asking who he is is not relevant to whether what he is saying is true or not.

Quote:
Based on actual experience with some of the artists in the video, many others of a similar ilk, and generally decades in the industry. I'm not guessing or making what sounds like definitive statements based on a hunch, an imagination, or something I read in interviews.
Exactly, "actual experience" with "some artists." In other words, I would trust your opinion on those you have worked with and observed first hand their audio knowledge/care.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4429
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
What kind of statement he is making is irrelevant as to whether you are making an ad hominem attack.
Attack? I asked who the person making the statement was and whether they had personal experience to make the definitive statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Have you sat in the studio with Springsteen to know?
I actually did attack their statement, as I have been doing so for many pages.

From Wikipedia:
Quote:
Ad hominem reasoning is not always fallacious, for example, when it relates to the credibility of statements of fact.
So why not just answer the question about experience?
One could say - Most artists are sexist. And again, one would ask - how do you know?



Quote:
Exactly, "actual experience" with "some artists." In other words, I would trust your opinion on those you have worked with and observed first hand their audio knowledge/care.
Well you are supporting someone who has not claimed experience with any of the artists, and neither have you.
So this is the problem with the internet as great equaliser. You wanna give equal credence to people with hunches, and no personal experience. Seems like a few pages ago everyone agreed that having no actual, technical experience in digital audio disqualified you from disagreeing with J_J.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Of course it's easier for you to trot out the internet cliche - 'ad hominem attack'.
Why not just answer the question about experience.
One could say - Most artists are sexist. And again, one would ask - how do you know?
If ad hominem attack is an internet cliche... it's because many people have no idea about all the logical errors they are making.

In your case, he made a statement, your first response was essentially "who are you."

You are attacking the person rather than the statement.

In your sexist example, I could easily answer WITHOUT questioning who the individual is making the argument.

Quote:
Well you are supporting someone who has not claimed experience with any of the artists, and neither have you.
You are making an assumption about him. It might be correct, but it's interesting that the one thing that really set you off (the certainty of his statement) is the same thing you are doing here.

Second, pointing out your errors is not my "support." That's silly.

Quote:
You wanna give equal credence to people with hunches
That's the thing Chrisso. You see what's wrong with everyone else in the world, but you could have just as easily told him that you have worked with a couple people in the video and relay your experience, and why you have your belief. You don't have to know artists personally to know that, for example, Eric Clapton cares about his guitar tone. Or that Sean Combs is a shrewd businessman. Or that Britney Spears couldn't mix her own records.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4431
More from Topgear in this thread:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Topgear View Post
This has never been proved, so why do you write it as a fact?
Why not write it in an honest fashion?
I agree. Why do you write about the artists in the video as a fact? You haven't proved Dave Grohl or Beck are less skilled in audio than a recording engineer.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
If ad hominem attack is an internet cliche... it's because many people have no idea about all the logical errors they are making.

In your case, he made a statement, your first response was essentially "who are you."

You are attacking the person rather than the statement.

Noooo. Not at all how it went down….

Quote:
Originally Posted by Topgear View Post
It was extremely cringe worthy in some ways. But you have to keep in mind that these people are not scientists, not even sound engineers.

You may watch the video and go "Man , why is Springsteen making a fool of himself this way, talking about the warm sound of the added bit rate of Pono after coming out of the Pono car". But keep in mind that he is a lyricist, and someone who knows how to move people with his voice and his attitude. I don't see how these funny comments in the video could change the perception of what the artist have accomplished within their actual field of expertise, which is a whole different ball game.
Next…

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
At many times in their lives, 'these people' sat in the control room of a great studio with great monitors and top of the line converters listening to their own music on high-resolution master tapes and then days, weeks, or months later they drove around in Neil Young's Caddy and said Pono was the "best sound they ever heard".

Come on.
Next… and my FIRST comment on this line of argument:

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Oh Joe, even I have to call foul on this one.
Many artists have a keen ear for quality sound. They often hire an engineer who knows how to put together the components to create the sound. It's not that artists don't know a good sound when they here it, it's that don't want to set up the mics themselves, or they don't understand how to set up the mics with the mic/pres and the eq's etc. many times I've sat in the studio and it's the artist who makes the final decision on the sound. The best sound is called by the artist, the engineer is the facilitator.
The earlier poster who claimed artist who were enthusiastic about Pono weren't qualified to know what a good sound was is reaching - big time in my opinion.
Artists spend an entire career listening to sound, deciding whether it's right or not, working out how it can be better.
Finally, your contribution:

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Exactly. A successful band leader isn't necessarily an expert on the music industry. A great musician isn't necessarily a great audio engineer. A terrific instrumentalist isn't necessarily a great businessman.

There is no reason to make jumps in fancy here. Sure, there are probably better ears generally speaking among musicians than among the general public but I can't tell you the number of times I've been in a musician's friend car or attended their solo gig and the EQ and/or system setup were painful and just 30 seconds of attention could have fixed it significantly.
Do you see in my post anywhere where i asked 'who are you', or even implied that question? No.
Do you see where i attacked the statement rather than the person? Yes.
Do you see where you did support their argument? You should. You started with the word 'exactly' and only gave one example of artists delivering bad sound, specifically didn't give examples of artists with good audio skills to legitimise the claim you don't have a set opinion.

In the end, it's a not very subtle attempt by one or two in the debate to discredit the people in the video.
All I'm asking is, if you are attacking their statements in the video, and not the people in the video, let's see some actual facts about the people in the video, or disclosures about yourselves validating the claims made about artists (above).
Old 1st May 2014
  #4432
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Chrisso, your first comment above to Topgear on this page is "who is Topgear?" That is ad hominem.

I admit I didn't realize he was part of the thread earlier. Sorry, that history changes it a little.

But I think I still do agree with his sentiment. You have experience with some people, and I bet you noticed how some of those people were totally involved in the music and nit picked things like drum sounds, reverb sounds, preamps, etc. But that doesn't mean that all, or even most, of the rock stars/artists in the video have well developed hearing. I just don't agree with your assumption, and as others have said, it's a different skill set to listen for details in music compared to being a creative musician. The two don't necessarily coincide.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4433
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I think that's what people have been arguing about for most of 100 pages.
If you google Pono (not Porno). even in the critical blogs there is no 100% agreement that higher bit rate or sample rate has no effect.
The very fact that it is debatable is convincing evidence to me that the "sample rates" can not be even CLOSE to having the effect Pono says.

to me, the issue is not so much does this difference exist or not exist - the main issue is how big a difference there is. If some champion listeners can tell on really good systems, with tracks they know, well good for them. Put them in the Guinness Book! But if people have to make excuses about the 'limitations of blind testing', that tells us A LOT about "how big" a difference sample rates must be.

It's like debating what the Sasquatch population of North America is. Some people say Bigfoot is real, some people say it is a myth, but surely we can all agree that there aren't large cities full of them.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4434
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
Some people say Bigfoot is real, some people say it is a myth, but surely we can all agree that there aren't large cities full of them.
Did I ever tell you about my double blind test of bigfoot? It hurt.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4435
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post

I admit I didn't realize he was part of the thread earlier. Sorry, that history changes it a little.
Right.
So you made a mistake claiming I attacked the poster (ad hominem) and din't attack their claim.


Moreover, if you are going to attack me (somewhat personally) because of an argument I posted, you should first be up to speed with the context of the argument, otherwise it just comes across as prejudice against one of the people arguing.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4436
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Topgear View Post
Most artist are not sound specialists,
That's like saying most painters aren't color specialists. My experience is that top level musicians hear amazingly well and appreciate differences in playback systems or equipment chains. This is what they do for a living and they've risen to the top because they can hear well on some level. I have great respect for the opinions of these top level artists. Don't forget, they are used to hearing GREAT playback all the time in high end rooms with the best systems, so they know (better than most of us) when things drop below that standard.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4437
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
to me, the issue is not so much does this difference exist or not exist - the main issue is how big a difference there is. If some champion listeners can tell on really good systems, with tracks they know, well good for them.
Fair enough.
The main issue for me is the cost of the downloads, and the potential age of the material available for download.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4438
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Right.
So you made a mistake claiming I attacked the poster (ad hominem) and din't attack their claim.
Sorry, but it was an ad hominem to me.

I think you need a few more face palms though, because your argument might be more convincing.

Quote:
Moreover, if you are going to attack me (somewhat personally)
Chrisso, I can't believe you have been here this long and you still appear to have such thin skin.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4439
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarsBot View Post
That's like saying most painters aren't color specialists. My experience is that top level musicians hear amazingly well and appreciate differences in playback systems or equipment chains. This is what they do for a living and they've risen to the top because they can hear well on some level. I have great respect for the opinions of these top level artists. Don't forget, they are used to hearing GREAT playback all the time in high end rooms with the best systems, so they know (better than most of us) when things drop below that standard.
The problem with the analogy is there aren't any groups of people who paint together each specializing in one color for this analogy to work.

But you do make some good points.
Old 1st May 2014
  #4440
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BTW... they just showed Neil Young at the sharks game on TV. He had his firkin' headphones in listening to his Pono!

Naw, not true.
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