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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 29th April 2014
  #4291
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
...

I'm not saying the video is key evidence proving Pono's claims. I'm saying, even if you are a sceptic, you can't just write the video off as un-believable or mass naivety.
Can I write it off as total bull****, then?

Because I do.

If just one of those people (as far as I could stand watching) had said something sensible like, "Sounded good in a car, would like to hear it on a decent system/headphones/selection of music at home/etc/etc/" maybe I might have given it some credence.

Porno whatever... this was the worst possible advertisement to anybody who actually thinks a little.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris93 View Post

Is the guy who thought the Seagate drives sounded better an example of "knowing what you're doing"?

Chris
No, but that's a single silly example.
Just like the girl in the 'Geek Wave' saying "wow it's really loud" is a silly isolated example.
The sad thing to me is the Pono critics in this thread are clinging to these silly isolated examples as if they are gospel.
Someone says they went to a local gig and the guitar sound was bad, suddenly that's evidence the artists in the video might not know what they're talking about.
Nope, just another isolated example.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4293
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
Can I write it off as total bull****, then?

Because I do.
Do what you like.
In the end, the product will have to prove it's worth.
For me the jury is out.
At this stage I couldn't say it was a silver bullet or a total con.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4294
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post
You do understand that making an artistic original is one task, and figuring out how to deliver it is a different task, do you not?

The same goes for Scorsese, actually, I doubt he is terribly involved in the act of transferring the edited original into copies to distribute to theatres.

You're confusing two different things.

Cinematography is part of the creative process.

Transferring to film, dubbing in the sound, etc, are part of the delivery process.
With all due respect it might be you who is confusing the important parameters.

While making the movie Scorsese will be chiefly concerned with the impact of his creative work as an entirety. In any sense. This most definitely extends to the impact it has in its final medium. This will be different in different formats. THAT is the parameter that is in play here that people react to when hearing vinyl, tape of digital formats to varying degrees, and someone that puts either film or music together for a living at high level is by definition a master of maximisimg this exact impact, in the same way you are a master of YOUR domain, so hence they by definition will be very sensitive indeed to any variations of the final impact of their work. Like when Grohl is talking about taking his stuff to studios.

This isn't about frequencies. Or perfect v imperfect. It is about impact and whether people perceive differences in it. And it is a ludicrous proposition to argue that because of expectation bias being a reality, therefore someone that builds his entire skill set around getting results in spite of the existence of expectation bias can't have a very valid opinion on an area he is a specialist in.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4295
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I get your point, I agree with most of your points, but I think some of your choices are a little unfair.
I think that everyone who has watched the video knows that Pono attributes its rave reviews to "high sample rates". For me, something does not add up

I don't think I am being unfair at all. I have covered all the possibilities I can think of to explain what I hear in the video.
1. Pono sounds as amazing as they say and sample rates are the reason. It is as good as they claim because high sample rates work exactly opposite to the way my experience says they work with expanding returns not diminishing returns. I am wrong.
2. The testimonials are skewed by error, bias and/or social pressure, etc. They are mistaken.
3. The testimonials are skewed by financial self-interest, etc. They are evil.
4. Pono sounds 'good', but for some reason other than high sample rates. The comparisons and conclusions are unfair.


#4= If Pono sounds good because they played it louder or deliberately crippled the CD, that is not really about "sample rates". If Pono sounds good because they 'enhanced' the output of the Pono, that is also not sample rates.

let's examine #4 one more time: . If sample rates are NOT the reason that Pono sounds good, then this is an analog domain thing. Some kind of post-conversion fiddling. It is no longer "accurate" or "faithful to the original" music, of course. [B]But if it is post-conversion, that means you could apply the same analog process to a post-converted 16/44.1 file! In order to have a fair comparison of "sample rates" that's what they OUGHT to be doing.

#4 is about "unfair comparison" - which might explain the reactions in the video, just as 1-3 also might explain it.

Remember, one of my four possibilities is #1- that they are absolutely correct and honest in what they say about Pono and sample rates. That's nominally 'good' for them. So why is that considered 'unfair'? I'll tell you why... it's because we all know that can't be it.

It is a measure of how improbable even you think #1 is, when a list that includes #1 is considered "unfair" to them!! You think I should find some other "out" for them. A fifth choice that leaves room for them not being wrong and not being dishonest, but at the same time is not such an obvious pitcher of kool-aid. I truly can't think of one.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4296
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Yes. We are talking about ARTISTS not record producers. You know... rock stars.. remember?
No, we are not just talking about artists.

Repeat:

Brendan O'Brien
T Bone Burnett
Bruce Botnick
Rick Rubin
Don Was

These are NOT what you say. Maybe you should have watched the whole video first.

Someone quote this so nuthinupmysleeve sees it and stops saying they are all clueless artists, please.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4297
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
I think that everyone who has watched the video knows that Pono attributes its rave reviews to "high sample rates".
But that does not preclude it sounds great due to the remastering, or sonics of the Pono player.


Quote:
It is a measure of how improbable even you think #1 is, when a list that includes #1 is considered "unfair" to them!!
Well because I'm not an audio expert or technician, and when I posted I thought 96khz was beneficial I was smacked around the head, chewed up and spat out by several Pono critics. I'm not going back there.


Quote:
You think I should find some other "out" for them. A fifth choice that leaves room for them not being wrong and not being dishonest, but at the same time is not such an obvious pitcher of kool-aid. I truly can't think of one.
Well you can do what you like, but if you wanted to be more fair you could wonder why many celebrated musicians are saying it sounds great, instead of putting forward options like they are biased or in it for the money.
I'm not saying they're right either. I'm saying I wonder why a diverse group are endorsing it then, if the 192khz claim is bolony? It's a question, it isn't a conclusion.
What I find wrong is a conclusion that the artists in the video have got damaged hearing, they are happy to lie for money, they felt they couldn't say anything bad on video (even though they had an easy option not to be in the video), they don't know enough about audio because they mostly write songs and sing…...
Old 29th April 2014
  #4298
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I strongly disagree.
It confronts most artists from day one.
It's common to work with a superstar engineer/producer and lobby the record company to remove them from the album because you aren't happy with the sound.
It's common to choose a cheap guitar through a cheap amp, because the boutique guitar through the expensive amp doesn't sound as 'good'.
Artists are making hundreds of decisions daily, and soon come up against confirmation bias.
Exactly. Comfirmation bias is a daily hurdle, that if you don't deal with it effectively it will stop you getting the right result. And if you can't do that you most definitely are not in this video.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4299
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bogosort View Post
What? How can it be nonsense? If Pono sounds better at 192 because of crappy filtering, then the Pono is a broken design. Admiring Pono for sounding good at 192 because its filters suck at lower rates is like admiring a car that shakes itself to pieces until it reaches 9000 RPM.

That would be the absolute worst reason for going to 192. If Paul Frindle can make the filters in the Oxford's 48 kHz converters completely transparent using 1990s technology, there's no excuse for the Pono team not to get this right in 2014.
Well, only you don't know yet how right or wrong they did get it, do you, so why the hot air?
Old 29th April 2014
  #4300
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post

Someone quote this so nuthinupmysleeve sees it and stops saying they are all clueless artists, please.
Already done it several times over the last couple of pages.

Elvis Costello:
Produced 'A Message To You Rudy' as far back as 1979.
Co-produced one of Squeeze's biggest hits 'Tempted' in 1981.
And produced the important and historic 'Nelson Mandela' (The Special AKA) in 1984
Old 29th April 2014
  #4301
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Success comes from overcoming expectation bias. One method I've used is to always throw some wild card in that I have no idea will or will not work.
Exactly, and successful producers will have their angles to deal with it to get to a result that is real and translates, or else they wouldn't be able to do their job at all.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4302
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
You like to assume, it's fine. I don't. Not a problem.
What a load. You continuously assume. And then you repeat that you don't assume.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4303
mixmixmix
Guest
QOUTE "this was the worst possible advertisement to anybody who actually thinks a little."

+1
Old 29th April 2014
  #4304
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixmixmix View Post
Most of the people in the video are over 40 and spent most of their careers in front blistering PA systems. There is no way their hearing is adequate.
Listening skills are mostly about being able to focus on the detail important to the situation (unless you are completely deaf of course), and knowing what that is in each situation, not so much how perfectly your ears are working. Otherwise you wouldn't have older guys making such great mastering engineers, would you? Technically they can't even hear the top end anymore, but their stuff sure sounds great....now how does that work?

Says a lot about your understanding of listening skills.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4305
mixmixmix
Guest
agree. However, people mix on NS10's which are not accurate, and come out with great mixes. How do they do THAT?

Also, why did not Neil Young invited some of the mastering engineers to reflect on Pono?
Old 29th April 2014
  #4306
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixmixmix View Post
agree. However, people mix on NS10's which are not accurate, and come out with great mixes. How do they do THAT?

Also, why did not Neil Young invited some of the mastering engineers to reflect on Pono?
You agree with what? That your basis on how listening skills work is flawed?
Old 29th April 2014
  #4307
mixmixmix
Guest
I agree with your definition of listening skills.

Why do you think Neil Young did not invite any mastering engineers to evaluate Pono?
Old 29th April 2014
  #4308
mixmixmix
Guest
Why burglars don't break in into police stations?
Old 29th April 2014
  #4309
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixmixmix View Post
I agree with your definition of listening skills.

Why do you think Neil Young did not invite any mastering engineers to evaluate Pono?
How do you know he didn't?

IF he didn't, my guess on why would be that mastering engineers are an unknown quantity to the public. And that he wants this to be viewed as an ARTISTICALLY fuelled thing in any case.

The target group is the public, not recording engineers who might or might not be persuaded more by there being a mastering guy in the video. And it isn't being conveyed as a technical 'thing', but an emotional sensation.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4310
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixmixmix View Post
I agree with your definition of listening skills.
Well, if you did you wouldn't argue how you did about the guys in the video and their potential listening skills value, so now you are contradicting yourself.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4311
mixmixmix
Guest
Emotional sensation?

How about "Let's get the real experts away from the crowds pulling their wallets out"?
Old 29th April 2014
  #4312
mixmixmix
Guest
Please, let's be gentle with this Pono thread, it is quckly developing dementia.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4313
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixmixmix View Post
Emotional sensation?

How about "Let's get the real experts away from the crowds pulling their wallets out"?
If I wasn't politely raised I'd say you need help, as personally I would hate to live with an outlook like that. But all good, whatever works for you, lets leave it at 'we inhabit different realities' or something like that, shall we?
Old 29th April 2014
  #4314
mixmixmix
Guest
Boarding school?
Old 29th April 2014
  #4315
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixmixmix View Post
Boarding school?
Eyh?
Old 29th April 2014
  #4316
mixmixmix
Guest
where were you "politely raised"? In a boarding school?
Old 29th April 2014
  #4317
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixmixmix View Post
where were you "politely raised"? In a boarding school?
Definitely not. By two loving parents who preferred having me around to sending me away. How is this relevant?
Old 29th April 2014
  #4318
mixmixmix
Guest
My point exactly. How is your suggestion that I need help is relevant to Pono discussion?
Old 29th April 2014
  #4319
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixmixmix View Post
My point exactly. How is your suggestion that I need help is relevant to Pono discussion?
The way you to my mind keep missing the point is something to do with viewpoint and from what things you say I would not personally like to live from that viewpoint as it seems bereft from here. But like I said, that is what it looks like from my subjective viewpoint (which no doubt you don't fancy either), so there isn't much headway to be made here, which is why I suggested to leave it there.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4320
mixmixmix
Guest
I have nothing against you. I respect your viewpoint.

I would love to keep this thread about Pono. If you can refrain from getting into judging personalities of participants would be great.
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