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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 29th April 2014
  #4261
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Why assume anything? Why assume they do?
Of course
But then you wouldn't assume the artists in the video aren't record producers. Which was factually incorrect. And why would it matter anyway? You don't assume artists are more able to determine high quality audio than the general public, so why differentiate artists from record producers?
And if you were completely uninterested in the debate about the video, you wouldn't have repeatedly interrogated me on who in the video I've worked with.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4262
mixmixmix
Guest
Confirmation bias is powerful, agree. But there is something else about rock stars getting giddy over Pono sound. How do they know it is better than an iPOd?

Have they compared? Of course not. Neil Young let them hear Pono ONLY. So there is no opportunity to compare one format to another.

Now, let's imagine Pono sounds great. Of course, they going to say it is the best sound. It is confirmation bias PLUS lack of opportunity to compare.

Best mastering engineers with years of experience with best masters, working and testing converters, monitors, etc on best equipment in the best acoustic enviroments argue for years AND sometimes fail double blind ABX tests about most minute differences related to hi-rez audio.

How can you take seriously pono endorsers saying 'It is amazing, it is much better" if they did not even have a chance to COMPARE Pono to a regular iPOd with a decent set of headphones, or on a decent set of monitors in a barely adequate acoustic space?

If Neil Young really stood by his product, he would let his musicians /producer friends to decide what they like better - iPod or Pono, and make THAT into a movie. He would get my vote of confidence for sure.

Well, he is another late night infomercial jockey to me.

when iPod came out, it was clearly a revolutionary gadget, well ahead of the rest of the game. Apple did not need celebrity endorsers.

It flew of the shelves because there was a need in the market for a genuine innovation.

Today, with multitude of hi-quality playback gadgets there is no need for another device.

So Neil has to go thru all of this marketing hoopla in order to give credibility to his product.

Unfortunately his marketing campaign is so corny, it raises question about credibility Pono instead of creating consumer confidence.

In Marketing, just like in music, to be succesfull you have to have taste. I find Pono campaign severily lacking in this department. And the reason is insecurity and greed. My money won't go into their pockets.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Of course
But then you wouldn't assume the artists in the video aren't record producers.
I am not assuming they are or are not Chrisso. You are a strange bird sometimes. Just seems like you really like to argue, even if it's about nothing.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4264
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Just seems like you really like to argue, even if it's about nothing.
Well I'm also trying to keep your posts accurate….

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Just because you are an awesome drummer doesn't mean you are a great piano player, businessman, audio engineer, or even a very nice human. In the video I see lots or rock stars. I make no assumptions that any of them know how to judge a good mix.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
In the video I see lots or rock stars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Yes. We are talking about ARTISTS not record producers. You know... rock stars.. remember?
Which is why I keep pointing out that most of the 'artists/rock stars' in the video are also record producers. But anyway, keep criticising me for correcting your mistake.
One has to assume a record producer can 'judge a good mix', otherwise they are going to be pretty useless as a record producer, and probably won't make more than one album as a record producer.
I'm making very simple observations pointing out the inconsistency of your posts. If they weren't all over the shop, I would have nothing to argue with i think.

By the way, did you watch the Foo Fighters Pono testimonial? Grohl specifically talks about protecting the original tracking sounds from mix engineers, and mastering engineers. He talks about taking his home recordings to a fancy studio and wondering why it doesn't sound right.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Which is why I keep pointing out that most of the 'artists/rock stars' in the video are also record producers. But anyway, keep criticising me for correcting your mistake.
Chrisso, I don't know. I don't assume. I don't assume they are.. or are not.. producers. I know them as artists.

Quote:
By the way, did you watch the Foo Fighters Pono testimonial? Grohl specifically talks about protecting the original tracking sounds from mix engineers, and mastering engineers. He talks about taking his home recordings to a fancy studio and wondering why it doesn't sound right.
I didn't see that one (I only watched one or two of them and I couldn't make it through). I don't really understand what you are saying though. I guess this conversation could be far reaching about summing and too much compression on individual tracks/etc, but I don't think that really matters.

If they are required to remix everything for Pono and remaster it as well, maybe that would be a good thing, but there is nothing on the web site or FAQs that indicates it.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4266
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
The only inequality is that artists understand reputation doesn't equal superior.
this also applies to the artists themselves
their reputation as artists does not necessarily equal superior abilities in other fields even when those fields may be considered 'related'

a few years ago, we had a Grammy Winning Producer quoted as saying that audio recorded to Seagate drives sounded better than the same audio played back off of Western Digital drives. That little tidbit has informed MY view of how much reputation in art is "correlated" with technical knowledge ever since!

For all the thousands of posts here, there really are a very limited set of possibilities when discussing the testimonials from the artists.

1. 96k or 192k really sound "that good". The rock stars in the video are actually hearing something unprecedented and reporting their considered, objective, and unbiased perspectives.
2. The testimonials are influenced by peer pressure and expectation bias, (and maybe exaggerated for the cameras).
3. The testimonials are paid, or perhaps influenced by the prospect of increased back-catalog sales, (and maybe exaggerated for the cameras.)
4. The comparisons were unfair- Pono is louder, Pono is "goosed" with psychoacoustic enhancers, the high res masters were different masters than the CDs, etc etc

I have not heard Pono, but I have heard 24/96 and 24/192 in my own studio on my own system with music that I was very familiar with. And blindfolded, I strained to hear a difference. Pono flogs "high sample rates" as the source of their superior sound. My own experience AND my own listening that removed bias says sample rate is insufficient to account for the extreme effects the people in the video are talking about.

As much as I would LIKE to give the artists 'credit' for their unbiased objectivity, I simply cannot rate their testimonials higher than my own experience, especially since my experience DID involve blind listening.
I guess we could possibly add:
5. joeq's converters and speakers suck big time ...

This might be plausible, were I the only engineer to have this same experience of diminishing returns (not expanding returns) with double and quadruple sample rates. But I am not the only one.

I still have to lean to one of #2,#3 or #4 or quite possibly some combination of all three.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
this also applies to the artists themselves
their reputation as artists does not necessarily equal superior abilities in other fields even when those fields may be considered 'related'

a few years ago, we had a Grammy Winning Producer quoted as saying that audio recorded to Seagate drives sounded better than the same audio played back off of Western Digital drives. That little tidbit has informed MY view of how much reputation in art is "correlated" with technical knowledge ever since!

For all the thousands of posts here, there really are a very limited set of possibilities when discussing the testimonials from the artists.

1. 96k or 192k really sound "that good". The rock stars in the video are actually hearing something unprecedented and reporting their considered, objective, and unbiased perspectives.
2. The testimonials are influenced by peer pressure and expectation bias, (and maybe exaggerated for the cameras).
3. The testimonials are paid, or perhaps influenced by the prospect of increased back-catalog sales, (and maybe exaggerated for the cameras.)
4. The comparisons were unfair- Pono is louder, Pono is "goosed" with psychoacoustic enhancers, the high res masters were different masters than the CDs, etc etc

I have not heard Pono, but I have heard 24/96 and 24/192 in my own studio on my own system with music that I was very familiar with. And blindfolded, I strained to hear a difference. Pono flogs "high sample rates" as the source of their superior sound. My own experience AND my own listening that removed bias says sample rate is insufficient to account for the extreme effects the people in the video are talking about.

As much as I would LIKE to give the artists 'credit' for their unbiased objectivity, I simply cannot rate their testimonials higher than my own experience, especially since my experience DID involve blind listening.
I guess we could possibly add:
5. joeq's converters and speakers suck big time ...

This might be plausible, were I the only engineer to have this same experience of diminishing returns (not expanding returns) with double and quadruple sample rates. But I am not the only one.

I still have to lean to one of #2,#3 or #4 or quite possibly some combination of all three.
Have you compared an mp3 to 24/96 or 24/192?
Old 29th April 2014
  #4268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixmixmix View Post
Confirmation bias is powerful, agree. But there is something else about rock stars getting giddy over Pono sound. How do they know it is better than an iPOd?

Have they compared? Of course not. Neil Young let them hear Pono ONLY. So there is no opportunity to compare one format to another.

Now, let's imagine Pono sounds great. Of course, they going to say it is the best sound. It is confirmation bias PLUS lack of opportunity to compare.

Best mastering engineers with years of experience with best masters, working and testing converters, monitors, etc on best equipment in the best acoustic enviroments argue for years AND sometimes fail double blind ABX tests about most minute differences related to hi-rez audio.

How can you take seriously pono endorsers saying 'It is amazing, it is much better" if they did not even have a chance to COMPARE Pono to a regular iPOd with a decent set of headphones, or on a decent set of monitors in a barely adequate acoustic space?

If Neil Young really stood by his product, he would let his musicians /producer friends to decide what they like better - iPod or Pono, and make THAT into a movie. He would get my vote of confidence for sure.

Well, he is another late night infomercial jockey to me.

when iPod came out, it was clearly a revolutionary gadget, well ahead of the rest of the game. Apple did not need celebrity endorsers.

It flew of the shelves because there was a need in the market for a genuine innovation.

Today, with multitude of hi-quality playback gadgets there is no need for another device.

So Neil has to go thru all of this marketing hoopla in order to give credibility to his product.

Unfortunately his marketing campaign is so corny, it raises question about credibility Pono instead of creating consumer confidence.

In Marketing, just like in music, to be succesfull you have to have taste. I find Pono campaign severily lacking in this department. And the reason is insecurity and greed. My money won't go into their pockets.
No, they compared it to mp3s and CDs. Also there has been a link posted more than once to an article where the reviewer compares a track on pono to a track on an iPod. Research much?
Old 29th April 2014
  #4269
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Chrisso, I don't know. I don't assume. I don't assume they are.. or are not.. producers. I know them as artists.
Assumptions don't even come into it. Five minutes of research would have revealed their roles as record producers.
I think it is safe to assume record producers have to be able to 'judge a good mix'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Right. No assumptions. Just because you are an awesome drummer doesn't mean you are a great piano player, businessman, audio engineer, or even a very nice human. In the video I see lots or rock stars. I make no assumptions that any of them know how to judge a good mix.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
In the video I see lots or rock stars.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Yes. We are talking about ARTISTS not record producers. You know... rock stars.. remember?
^^^All of which is the reason I kept posting the majority in the video were also record producers, right?^^^^^^


And just for the record….
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
I'm guessing, since you haven't mentioned working with any of the artists in the video you don't have first hand experience?
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
…..yeah, I've worked with a couple of the artists in the video.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Believe it or not who you worked with in that video is not top of mind for me.

talk about liking to argue.
You ask me a question, I answer it, and you shoot me down for answering it.
The phrase damned if you do, damned if you don't comes to mind.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4270
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post

For all the thousands of posts here, there really are a very limited set of possibilities when discussing the testimonials from the artists.

1. 96k or 192k really sound "that good". The rock stars in the video are actually hearing something unprecedented and reporting their considered, objective, and unbiased perspectives.
2. The testimonials are influenced by peer pressure and expectation bias, (and maybe exaggerated for the cameras).
3. The testimonials are paid, or perhaps influenced by the prospect of increased back-catalog sales, (and maybe exaggerated for the cameras.)
4. The comparisons were unfair- Pono is louder, Pono is "goosed" with psychoacoustic enhancers, the high res masters were different masters than the CDs, etc etc
Huh?
You left out one equally viable possibility.
That something else is influencing the perceived improvement.
It could be the remastering for Pono. Or it could be some aspect of the player.
I mean I've been tending to agree with about 99% of what you've posted, but you keep leaving out one equally possible explanation for the reactions in the videos.
Nothing to do with 192khz.
Nothing to do with bias or peer pressure.
Nothing to do with being paid, or expecting more album sales.
Nothing to do with an unfair demonstration.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4271
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Assumptions don't even come into it.
You like to assume, it's fine. I don't. Not a problem.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4272
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
I didn't see that one (I only watched one or two of them and I couldn't make it through). I don't really understand what you are saying though.
You were asking how involved artists got in the sound department. How much they were allowed to get involved. How big a role they took, how effective they were and typically what they could and could not demand regarding the sound, mix and mastering of their recordings.
There's just one answer in the Grohl video.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4273
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
You like to assume, it's fine. I don't. Not a problem.
I knew the people in the video were record producers, you didn't. There is no assumption. One person (me) knew the facts, one person (you) didn't.
So you would now say one can't assume a record producer can 'judge a good mix'.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4274
mixmixmix
Guest
joeq, thx for your long post. It will help to explain why some of the posters will not buy into exaggerated responses of celebrity endorsers.

One day this Pono infomercial will be used in marketing classes - "Perceived Manufacturer Integrity or How Not to Advertise a New Product"
Old 29th April 2014
  #4275
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by cakewalk View Post
Have you compared an mp3 to 24/96 or 24/192?
of course but the testimonials in the video clearly conflate mp3 and CD. Actually my greatest annoyance about it.

BOTH current consumer formats were lumped together in one "underwater" category and the higher rates were set apart as "coming up for air" with the very highest rates being advertised as the most massive difference.

either the listeners were saying mp3 AND CD were both clearly and obviously inferior to high-resolution files or they were confused about when they were comparing CD to 96 and when they were comparing mp3 to 96.

people said things like: "when they went back to CD, (coming from high-res) 'whoa' what happened to the low end? "

my experience, which is all I can go on, is that the greatest differences are between low rate and high rate mp3s, less difference between high rate mp3s and full CD quality, smaller, even more difficult-to-perceive differences between 44.1 and 96k - in fact, largely not perceivable in blind listening of mastered, full program material.

Among those who have blind-tested, I don't feel I am alone in this perception. All due respect to them all as artists, but something does not add up.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4276
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Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
What a strange thing to say.

Confirmation bias doesn't preclude people from noticing real differences. It just illustrates that not all differences we think we perceive are actually there.

The trick is to understand we don't know the difference.
Strange? To suggest that we actually hear the thing before coming to conclusions?
Old 29th April 2014
  #4277
mixmixmix
Guest
The higher you go with sampling rate, the quicker your returns are diminished. At this point those returns are so small, it is purely academic argument. My problem with Pono is corny, agressive, selg-aggrandizing marketing. Some of general public will buy into it and Pono the company will make money. Out of thin air.

The music delivery format train has left long time ago. But throw around some big names, and you make money anyway. Like anybody really needed George Foreman grill. Biggest selling cooking appliance in a history of late night infomercials.

The last possibility to cash in on the "Neil Young" brand name. Dr. dre with headphones, Neil Young with Pono, Miley Cirus with perfume. Busy MUSICIANS.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4278
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Huh?
It could be the remastering for Pono.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq
the high res masters were different masters than the CDs, etc etc
Quote:
Or it could be some aspect of the player.
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq
4. The comparisons were unfair- Pono is louder, Pono is "goosed" with psychoacoustic enhancers,
Quote:
I mean I've been tending to agree with about 99% of what you've posted, but you keep leaving out...
not only did I not leave it out, it was included in the very text you quoted when you accused me of leaving it out. It all falls under the category of #4, an unfair comparison. A thumb on the scale. Apples to oranges. "Goosing"

Modern professional converters are frightfully accurate. For Pono to be "more accurate" than any other converter would be ridiculous. Certainly the Pono people are not making that claim, so if there is something in the "analog stage" of the converter that makes people think it's better, it is fair to call that "goosing". Some kind of enhancement. A volume boost? a smiley-face EQ? an exciter circuit? Some harmonic 'goo'?

WHATEVER IT IS, it must be happening in the analog stage, therefore it must be something that could just as easily be added to a 16/44.1 file if they were willing to be fair about it!

That other product, the Geek Wave, had a girl in the video saying "wow! it's really LOUD!" heh and I say, hey, at least they aren't pretending that it's about "sample rate"!! It's a hi-fi DAC with a good headphone amp with plenty of clean power, is how they put it.

Maybe that's Pono's secret. Volume, The one person in this thread who listened to Pono, listened to it at 125 dB. 125 dB is the threshold of pain. That's the volume of a 'pneumatic riveter at four feet'.

Old 29th April 2014
  #4279
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
not only did I not leave it out, it was included in the very text you quoted when you accused me of leaving it out.
Well not really, I was talking about your four possibilities. You qualified possibility one by wondering if 96khz or 192khz really did sound 'that good', and qualified possibility four as Pono being louder or goosed. Possibility 2 and 3 centred around bias, peer pressure and financial gain.

I get your point, I agree with most of your points, but I think some of your choices are a little unfair.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I knew the people in the video were record producers, you didn't. There is no assumption. One person (me) knew the facts, one person (you) didn't.
So you would now say one can't assume a record producer can 'judge a good mix'.
You are really funny and you really like to argue. You haven't worked with everyone in the video and you don't know their level of involvement and their ability to hear details. You don't know their critical listening skills, you are assuming.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4281
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Strange? To suggest that we actually hear the thing before coming to conclusions?
?? Moving goalposts.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4282
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
a few years ago, we had a Grammy Winning Producer quoted as saying that audio recorded to Seagate drives sounded better than the same audio played back off of Western Digital drives. That little tidbit has informed MY view of how much reputation in art is "correlated" with technical knowledge ever since!
That's the kind of thing I was talking about. Nobody is immune to this bias.

For sounds great, please note, that doesn't mean there are no differences. It means our mind can convince us of differences that aren't really there. It doesn't matter if you are a genius mastering engineer or a nobody. We are all subject to it.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4283
mixmixmix
Guest
Most of the people in the video are over 40 and spent most of their careers in front blistering PA systems. There is no way their hearing is adequate. There is NOT ONE mastering engineer in this video. I'm sure Neil knows more than one mastering engineer. Why did not he invite any?

Could it be that in some testimonials participants are trying to conceal their hearing loss and subsequently overcommit to praising the Pono sound?

I doubt Neil can hear much himself this days. There is a bit in the video when he is talking to Dave Grohl, and somebody has to tell him TWICE that he is about to go on stage to perform - he did not get it the first time. What a joke...

Whatever Pono is, it is a comedy of sorts. Laughter is healthy. But lying is still bad.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixmixmix View Post
Most of the people in the video are over 40 and spent most of their careers in front blistering PA systems. There is no way their hearing is adequate. There is NOT ONE mastering engineer in this video. I'm sure Neil knows more than one mastering engineer. Why did not he invite any?

Could it be that in some testimonials participants are trying to conceal their hearing loss and subsequently overcommit to praising the Pono sound?

I doubt Neil can hear much himself this days. There is a bit in the video when he is talking to Dave Grohl, and somebody has to tell him TWICE that he is about to go on stage to perform - he did not get it the first time. What a joke...

Whatever Pono is, it is a comedy of sorts. Laughter is healthy. But lying is still bad.
you are confusing high frequency hearing loss with ability to detect mojo, two different things. one type of tech creates this unknown to some phenomena (musical instruments, mics, analogue gear), one type of tech kills it (take a guess what i'm alluding to).
Old 29th April 2014
  #4285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
That's the kind of thing I was talking about. Nobody is immune to this bias.

For sounds great, please note, that doesn't mean there are no differences. It means our mind can convince us of differences that aren't really there. It doesn't matter if you are a genius mastering engineer or a nobody. We are all subject to it.
what you call bias is just knowing what the ****e you're doing in a studio. it's not like we get beamed down from the moon starting from scratch every day. let it go man!
Old 29th April 2014
  #4286
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Mojo?
Old 29th April 2014
  #4287
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Timesaver800W View Post
what you call bias is just knowing what the ****e you're doing in a studio.
What is this supposed to mean? It looks as though you have no understanding of what bias is and think that things really do sound better just because you're told they should.

"Knowing what the ****e you're doing" seems to mean "knowing which things to claim to prefer"

Is the guy who thought the Seagate drives sounded better an example of "knowing what you're doing"?

Chris
Old 29th April 2014
  #4288
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as i said, unknown to some
Old 29th April 2014
  #4289
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And unless you can define it, meaningless to everyone...

My Shure headphones have a lot of "HOGO", but you wouldn't know what that means...

Chris
Old 29th April 2014
  #4290
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
You are really funny and you really like to argue.
But this is your style:
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Do you have any actual experience with any of the musicians in the video as recording engineers, or first hand experience with them demonstrating their audio expertise?
I would love to hear about it, especially if somehow over your awesome 30 years, you have worked with them directly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post

I'm guessing, since you haven't mentioned working with any of the artists in the video you don't have first hand experience?
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
…..yeah, I've worked with a couple of the artists in the video.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Believe it or not who you worked with in that video is not top of mind for me.


Who still calls artists 'rock stars' anyway? - teenagers and tabloids.
The people in the video are musicians, songwriters and record producers. 'Rock star' is obviously being used in this thread pejoratively.
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