The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 29th April 2014
  #4231
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
It's therefore not unreasonable to suggest experienced artists have learnt about sonic choices
Very sensible!

Quote:
and are also aware of confirmation bias and the way a particular environment can effect your choices - more so than the average member of the public.
Not so sensible to me. We have seen many people even on this board who have lots of experience but don't really understand the extent that confirmation bias impacts our decision making.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4232
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
There's a reasonable argument that musicians are more aware of confirmation bias than ordinary people. We confront a multitude of sonic choices and confirmation bias from the beginnings of our careers.
You're still confusing the artistic side of things with the delivery side of things, Chrisso.

One is involved in aesthetic decisions, the other is supposed to cause no changes.

All one has to do is assume there might be a difference, and poof, you hear one.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4233
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post

Nobody is naive or a liar if they don't understand the impact of confirmation bias…
Yes, I believe they understand confirmation bias, and with that knowledge are still prepared to endorse Pono.

Quote:
The other question is, of the people you mention above, would you say they are all hands on and are involved in final mixes and/or mastering of their records?
Everyone is hands on to a certain extent.
I've never made a single record (from my first to my last) when I didn't have to collaborate on the drum sound. Drum sounds are complex, and in my experience take a certain amount of experience and training to become competent at.
It's a nonsense to suggest you can turn up for your album recording, present any old guitar sound and the (more expert) engineer will fix it for you. It's usually a collaboration, and just as often the expert guitarist telling the engineer what they want to hear.


Quote:
The other question is, have you worked with artists who are NOT involved in final mixes and mastering?
I've never personally worked with an artist that either didn't sign off on the final mix, or had no say in the final mix.
Mastering is all about translating the studio recordings into a format that works best for the delivery medium (whether it's radio, mp3, or CD). It's a specialist job.
If you don't understand how mastering translates a final mix to a deliverable, that doesn't mean you don't understand quality audio. Not by a long shot.
But no, most of the artists I've worked with have had at least an equal say in OK'ing the final master.
Moreover, I've worked with several artists who have done everything (bar mastering) themselves. That's playing most of the instruments, recording everything, mixing the album.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4234
Lives for gear
 
Ephi82's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Because you make sarcastic comments to me about 'awesome careers' and 'yours is bigger'?
You know who I've worked with, so i don't know why you keep goading me, is it because you believe I'm lying?
It's not about me, it's never about me. It's about Pono. And all I've done is offer some insight based on actual experience.
Actual hands on experience has value compared to "I read it in an interview" right?
I've worked with Elvis Costello.
I've worked on Don Was and Elton John projects. I've toured with Was Not Was (inc Don Was) as my support act.
I respect the values and skill Jim Keltner has brought to the drumming community and am not inclined to view him as naive or a liar.
Chris, I have to applaud that you are hanging in there in this debate. Your positions are similar to mine, but I dont have your credibility. I just simply love making music and recording it "at home". You have made a happy living out of it and I am happy for you.

I just went back and viewed the entire PONO promo video, again. There may have been one, maybe two mentions of 192khz by the artists, and I think Neil will live to regret the whole underwater thing, but he emphasized several times that PONO is a "system", as in an advancement in hardware.

When it all comes down to the end of it, it's all about the music, and I believe what the artists say they want and prefer (and their customers) is what counts.

The fact is, and I dont say this in a mean way, the audio recording engineers of the world, are providing a service to the artists and their music consumers. No one is looking to them to "protect" consumers, nor to be the judge if equipment A is better than equipment B. (unless they are making buying decisions for their pro use)

If PONO is a better marketed hi res player (than others of similar quality) and that subsequently creates a demand for better mastered recordings, I could care less that what "mixmixmix" and others like him thinks. His opinion is irrelevant outside of this world in GEARSLUTZ.

If the artist or the consumer say "I like the way it sounds "this way"" then somebody will deliver it to them, and make money. So goes the world!

You know, I am old enough to remember "why the heck do you need "stereo" " to play back recorded music. (Hmmm, hello Geoff Emerick and George Martin, patron saints in the recording world)

I also remember "what is wrong with a black and white TV? Twilight Zone doesn't need any color to tell Rod Serling's great stories" (My father to me, 1966 when I wanted to see Batman in color, and he knew I love Twilight Zone reruns as much as he did)
Old 29th April 2014
  #4235
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Again, you use Scorsese but you really should be using Tom Cruise as your analogy.
Why?
Most of the artists in the video have produced their own albums, or produced albums for others. A record producer = a film director.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4236
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Yes, I believe they understand confirmation bias, and with that knowledge are still prepared to endorse Pono.
You "believe"... so you don't know.

Quote:
I've never made a single record (from my first to my last) when I didn't have to collaborate on the drum sound.
With the artist? The producer? The engineer? A combination of them?

Quote:
I've never personally worked with an artist that either didn't sign off on the final mix, or had no say in the final mix.
Cool... I was asking more about making mix decisions and more in-depth input rather than just signing off.

Quote:
Moreover, I've worked with several artists who have done everything (bar mastering) themselves. That's playing most of the instruments, recording everything, mixing the album.
Right, and that's why I would expect those people to have a better ear. But just because one is a rock star doesn't mean they can mix or master. Some can because they have developed the skill that is very different from playing an instrument.

I wouldn't assume BB King could run FOH even though he has done more dates than I have been alive. That would be a bad assumption.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4237
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Why?
Most of the artists in the video have produced their own albums, or produced albums for others. A record producer = a film director.
Yes. We are talking about ARTISTS not record producers. You know... rock stars.. remember?
Old 29th April 2014
  #4238
Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post
You're still confusing the artistic side of things with the delivery side of things, Chrisso.

One is involved in aesthetic decisions, the other is supposed to cause no changes.
I agree with you.
I'm only addressing the notion that artists are no better than anyone else when it comes to appreciating high quality audio, and that they are as prone to confirmation bias as anyone who's had no career long experience making hundreds of decisions in their day to day work based on the quality of audio.
I agree, they often make subjective decisions on audio based on 'a vibe' or an arbitrary mood, but they are still being asked "what do you think of this drum sound, what do you think of this mix, what do you think of this master?" hundreds of times a year.
It's hard experience that and 1) naively blunder through it, while 2) never learning anything about sound and bias in the process.

My point is not to simply discount the artists in the video as no better than Joe The Plumber when analysing the quality of audio reaching the ears.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4239
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Yes. We are talking about ARTISTS not record producers. You know... rock stars.. remember?
In case you haven't noticed, many 'artist/rock stars' are producers.
Don Was - producer.
Dave Grohl - producer.
Elton John - producer.
Elvis Costello - producer.
T-Bone Burnett - producer.
Etc, etc..
^^This is basic info^^, and you say I'm just trying to pick fights.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4240
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
It's hard experience that and 1) naively blunder through it, while 2) never learning anything about sound and bias in the process.
I don't think you learn much about confirmation bias until you dig into it.. regardless of their real world experience. I'm not going to mention names but many of the big names here (and in the old rec.audio.pro USENET days) were pretty oblivious to it.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4241
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
In case you haven't noticed, many 'artist/rock stars'
Artists who are producers are obviously more likely to have outstanding hearing, as it's part of their job as a producer (at least, in most cases). It's about the job they do, as JJ said.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4242
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
You "believe"... so you don't know.
Again, it is me just looking to pick a fight?
I believe because I've seen them in action. I know what I've actually experienced.


Quote:
With the artist? The producer? The engineer? A combination of them?
It could be all, it depends, but I think you misunderstood my point. everyone is at least responsible for delivering their own sound. Do you think Mark Knopfler's guitar sound is completely different when it's recorded by X engineer in London and Y engineer recording in Nashville. No, it still sounds like Mark.


Quote:
Cool... I was asking more about making mix decisions and more in-depth input rather than just signing off.
Debut artists - typically signing off at best, often a token input.
Established artists, like all those in the video, very much hands on, with a lot of input. As I say, in the current age, many are recording and mixing on their own.

Quote:
I wouldn't assume BB King could run FOH even though he has done more dates than I have been alive. That would be a bad assumption.
It's common for the artist to walk out into the arena with a radio mic, or wi-fi guitar and guide the FOH engineer on what they think needs adjusting.
Again, I think you are confusing the mechanics of sound with the end result.
I can't achieve a killer drum sound on my own, because I'm not experienced with consoles, and gain staging to Pro Tools. Having said that, I'm extremely capable of knowing a great drum sound when I hear one. That has nothing to do with confirmation bias and everything to do with years of experience.
I can record in a ****ty cheap studio, or the best studio in the world and still be able to determine between an ok drum sound and a superb drum sound.
With my reputation on the line, I'm extremely motivated to say when I think the drums sound average at best. And I only learnt that from experience, listening, watching drummers I liked the sound of at work, watching recording engineers at work.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4243
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
I don't think you learn much about confirmation bias until you dig into it.. regardless of their real world experience. I'm not going to mention names but many of the big names here (and in the old rec.audio.pro USENET days) were pretty oblivious to it.
Many famous recording engineers have gone on record saying: "this is the best AD/DA interface I've ever used".
Is that prone to confirmation bias, or is it a genuine belief?
If you were a recording engineer with a similar skill level you could challenge them, but as it is, you and I are probably best to assume it's a genuine belief.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4244
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Again, it is me just looking to pick a fight?
I believe because I've seen them in action.
I'm curious how you can tell someone is aware of their own bias. Do they do a/b/x testing of their decisions? I think you are making it too simple.

Bottom line for me is I don't make assumptions. I don't assume you are a better mastering engineer, kazoo player, or barista just because you are a well known drummer.

Regarding Pono, I don't make assumptions that just because people are famous musicians they know good sound, or they understand confirmation bias, or they are not just being nice to a friend. No assumptions.

You are free to believe otherwise and assume based on your own criteria. Don't expect me to go there with ya.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4245
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Many famous recording engineers have gone on record saying: "this is the best AD/DA interface I've ever used".
Is that prone to confirmation bias, or is it a genuine belief?
If you were a recording engineer with a similar skill level you could challenge them, but as it is, you and I are probably best to assume it's a genuine belief.
Ahh... I wouldn't assume either until I understood their method of testing.

Even the greatest ears in the world are subject to confirmation bias.

This is where we part ways. Confirmation bias is the great equalizer... it doesn't matter who you are, it's there.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4246
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
I don't think you learn much about confirmation bias until you dig into it.. regardless of their real world experience.
I strongly disagree.
It confronts most artists from day one.
It's common to work with a superstar engineer/producer and lobby the record company to remove them from the album because you aren't happy with the sound.
It's common to choose a cheap guitar through a cheap amp, because the boutique guitar through the expensive amp doesn't sound as 'good'.
Artists are making hundreds of decisions daily, and soon come up against confirmation bias.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4247
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
This is where we part ways. Confirmation bias is the great equalizer... it doesn't matter who you are, it's there.
The only inequality is that artists understand reputation doesn't equal superior. How many inexperienced members of the public understand that, or have experienced it? If you don't know it's there, you're not looking for it.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4248
Lives for gear
 
bogosort's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
...hence it is actually nonsense to comment on the usefulness of 192 here until it gets put in context of the Pono hardware....which nobody has heard yet.

But all and sundry are pointing out the uselessness of 192 out of this context full barrells. Neat.
What? How can it be nonsense? If Pono sounds better at 192 because of crappy filtering, then the Pono is a broken design. Admiring Pono for sounding good at 192 because its filters suck at lower rates is like admiring a car that shakes itself to pieces until it reaches 9000 RPM.

That would be the absolute worst reason for going to 192. If Paul Frindle can make the filters in the Oxford's 48 kHz converters completely transparent using 1990s technology, there's no excuse for the Pono team not to get this right in 2014.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4249
Gear Nut
 
Digital Crush's Avatar
So Neil Young is a Pono Star !
Old 29th April 2014
  #4250
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Success comes from overcoming expectation bias. One method I've used is to always throw some wild card in that I have no idea will or will not work.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4251
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Even the greatest ears in the world are subject to confirmation bias.

This is where we part ways. Confirmation bias is the great equalizer... it doesn't matter who you are, it's there.
Wow, you've really gone off the edge.

Just because, yes, people believe there are differences when there aren't, doesn't mean they don't recognize differences when they do exist. Perhaps Pono should get some blind test before we make up our minds?

Or at least some of us hear the thing?
Old 29th April 2014
  #4252
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
I'm curious how you can tell someone is aware of their own bias. Do they do a/b/x testing of their decisions?
Oh jeez.

Quote:
Bottom line for me is I don't make assumptions.
Sure, fair enough, so don't keep appearing to support the commentary that the artists in the video most likely don't know good audio when they hear it, because it's not their 'area of expertise'. Don't keep posting about what 'rock stars' likely can't do.
If you were making no assumptions you would have been silent on this whole aspect of the debate.


Quote:
Regarding Pono, I don't make assumptions that just because people are famous musicians they know good sound, or they understand confirmation bias, or they are not just being nice to a friend. No assumptions.
Sure, I'm just saying it's illogical to assume all of the artists in the video are more prone to bias than they have trained themselves to a decent standard in analysis of audio quality.
I agree, neither you or I know, but you chimed into the debate on whether 'rock stars' were any more knowledgeable on audio than an average member of the public.
I'm saying, from a position of experience, they often tend to be. Not 100% of the time, but far more than 50% of the time.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4253
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Success comes from overcoming expectation bias. One method I've used is to always throw some wild card in that I have no idea will or will not work.
Perfectly put

You also overcome expectation with experience.
When I was inexperienced i would have expected the $10,000 drum kit to always sound better than the $1000 drum kit. But when someone with more experience forces you to test that bias, you quickly learn it's not true.
That's exactly why i say experience is relevant to any discussion about 'confirmation bias'.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4254
Lives for gear
 
bogosort's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
But in two days of asking, no one has been prepared to agree that Martin Scorsese doesn't know superior cinematography and film editing when he sees it.
As has been pointed out before, the better analogy (if such a silly thing even deserves one) is with actor vs cinematographer. Musicians are the talent, just like actors. Movie directors are more like recording producers, and I would definitely expect both to have more technical sensitivity than the talent.

Of course, all these sweeping generalizations (both ways) are nonsense.

Quote:
Whereas people in this thread are happy to suggest artists - who have been listening to great sounding albums since childhood, and worked with many of the great recording engineers and record producers, are susceptible to 'expectation bias' when it comes to analysing audio.
Everyone is susceptible to cognitive biases. There's no shame in it; it's part of being human.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4255
Quote:
Originally Posted by bogosort View Post
As has been pointed out before, the better analogy (if such a silly thing even deserves one) is with actor vs cinematographer. Musicians are the talent, just like actors. Movie directors are more like recording producers, and I would definitely expect both to have more technical sensitivity than the talent.
'The talent' is an archaic and out of touch description in today's music industry. Most everyone is playing more than one role, very often recording themselves.
As has been pointed out before, many in the video, possibly a majority, have 'record producer' on their resume. Moreover, just about every one is recording themselves as part of the process these days. Whether it's the remote studio drummers like the ones I mentioned yesterday, or someone like Beck or Dave Grohl, starting the recordings on their own, or with a songwriting collaborator, then collaborating with recording engineers and producers at certain stages in the album making process.
Which is rather different from the actor, director analogy you want to agree with. Has Tom Cruise shot a home movie and got Spielberg in to help him finish it?
Old 29th April 2014
  #4256
Quote:
Originally Posted by bogosort View Post
Everyone is susceptible to cognitive biases.
It's just illogical to assume all, or even a majority of the artists in the video have no better ability to recognise high quality audio than average members of the public.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4257
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Wow, you've really gone off the edge.

Just because, yes, people believe there are differences when there aren't, doesn't mean they don't recognize differences when they do exist. Perhaps Pono should get some blind test before we make up our minds?

Or at least some of us hear the thing?
What a strange thing to say.

Confirmation bias doesn't preclude people from noticing real differences. It just illustrates that not all differences we think we perceive are actually there.

The trick is to understand we don't know the difference.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4258
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
It's just illogical to assume all, or even a majority of the artists in the video have no better ability to recognise high quality audio than average members of the public.
Why assume anything? Why assume they do?
Old 29th April 2014
  #4259
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
It's just illogical to assume all, or even a majority of the artists in the video have no better ability to recognise high quality audio than average members of the public.
You may assert this, but you have presented nothing beyond equivocation to support this premise.

Why do you think the ability to demonstrate extraordinary artistic ability has anything to do with the ability to distinguish a transparent transmission medium? One makes differences on purpose, the other is supposed to make no difference whatsoever. Two different jobs, two different kinds of expertise.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4260
Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post

Why do you think the ability to demonstrate extraordinary artistic ability has anything to do with the ability to distinguish a transparent transmission medium? One makes differences on purpose, the other is supposed to make no difference whatsoever.
Pono is supposed to make a difference 'on purpose'.
All I'm saying is it is a reach to say the artists in the video can't claim they've just listened to a high quality transmission medium, because their expertise lies in writing lyrics or playing guitar.
It's a non-sequiter to say because they are known for playing guitar or writing songs, their decades of experience analysing sound and listening to transmission mediums gives them no edge over average members of the public.
The issue being the attempt by some to discredit the artists in the video.
If everyone was as 'who knows' as they claim, we wouldn't be debating it. The discredit would never have been floated and then backed by several in the thread.
In short, I didn't start the argument by claiming the artists were audio experts, I joined the argument when it was claimed they are no more audio expert than anyone on the street.
That is a claim I've found to be inaccurate from personal experience.
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump