The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 28th April 2014
  #4201
Lives for gear
 
Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Simply because no one with any industry experience allows them self to be filmed doing something for the first time (like a new product) when the outcome appears to be an endorsement.
It's absolute 101 to say "Mr Costello would like to hear it first".
It's also 101, if you are ambushed, to get some manager to call Pono and remove Mr Costello from the video. It doesn't have to be Elvis embarrassing Neil by backing out, just a conversation between two business suits. Music industry 101.
I could buy one or two being ambushed, but not the entire group of business savvy, endorsement savvy artists.
I think you're very smart.

Of course, don't take that as a compliment, it's just my confirmation bias talking. Never mind me, I'm just hypnotized...

- c
Old 28th April 2014
  #4202
In short…
People with a new product don't just happen to bump into a whole load of artists and just happen to have a film crew handy.
Even as a lowly sideman drummer, if anyone had contacted me and said they wanted to show me a new product and film my reaction the alarm bells would be ringing, red lights flashing. It all has to be negotiated, with terms set out - "what if I don't like it?" being one of the key early questions one would ask.
I can accept a few artists might want to just support Young, in whatever way. I can accept maybe a couple were ambushed and maybe haven't bothered to get themselves removed from the video. I can't accept every one of the artists in the video is either naive or lying.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4203
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
In short…
People with a new product don't just happen to bump into a whole load of artists and happen to have a film crew handy.
Even as a lowly sideman drummer, if anyone had contacted me and said they wanted to show me a new product and film my reaction the alarm bells would be ringing, red lights flashing. It all has to be negotiated, with terms set out - "what if I don't like it?" being one of the key early questions one would ask.
I can accept a few artists might want to just support Young, in whatever way. I can accept maybe a couple were ambushed and maybe haven't bothered to get themselves removed from the video. I can't accept every one of the artists in the video is either naive or lying.
Its highly unlikely that all of the artists are naive or lying. Its also unlikely that no one can actually hear the difference between an mp3 and a hi res recording. I'm sure there may be some confirmation bias but I know several people, as well as myself, that can actually hear the difference. People who record music for a living should be able to hear the difference unless their ears are shot.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4204
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Forget about your death artists theory that know not what they hear for a minute and look at this list:

T Bone Burnett
Don Was
Brendan O'Brien
Bruce Botnick

All either death, tripping or wh*ring. Really?
Old 28th April 2014
  #4205
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
...I once had a long talk with a Stage Hypnotist...
I did too; he told me (and demonstrated) that he selects a group of willing volunteers and then selects the best candidate from the group. Studies do show there is a strong voluntary component in hypnosis and it's possible that some of the artists could be afflicted...but I think it's unlikely that Neil Young managed to hypnotise everyone in the video.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4206
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
I did too; he told me (and demonstrated) that he selects a group of willing volunteers and then selects the best candidate from the group.

Ahh, like selecting a jury. I would have been rejected immediately.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4207
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
The difference is about actual experience and little or no actual experience.
Except the guy with little experience isn't claiming any experience. And the guy with lots of experience isn't being specific about his experience, so it's coming off like pen*s measuring exercise.

Quote:
You wanna keep making it about mr bragging because you commented on things you don't have any experience of.
No... actually, I pointed out how you could be specific and help give me more info rather than making a blanket assumption/statement. If there are people in the video you worked with who you would say have great ears because of your knowledge working with them, that would be helpful to know.

Like JJ said, you just want to pick fights Chrisso.. not sure why.

Quote:
Have you sat in a recording studio and watched an artist with five or six hit albums under their belt interact with an experienced and excellent recording engineer? If so, then you comment with more accuracy about the artists in the video.
"Hits" in a smaller genre, yes as a matter of fact. But again, no reason to measure, because yours is bigger.

The problem is you can't separate out your feelings of superiority vs. assumption. All I'm saying is I do not assume anything. You are suggesting, I guess, that I SHOULD assume that all artists are involved in the sonic details of their product. Sorry... I don't assume. In my (remember smaller pool) experience, lots of people were directly involved. I also knew many who weren't very involved.

I won't assume.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4208
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post

I won't assume.
Apart from the little assumption that the 4 producers and engineers in my last post are all either lying and wh*ring, or at best, tripping. But then you won't read this, as you have blocked me. Oh well, maybe someone will quote it.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4209
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Apart from the little assumption that the 4 producers and engineers in my last post are all either lying and wh*ring, or at best, tripping. But then you won't read this, as you have blocked me. Oh well, maybe someone will quote it.
quoted.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4210
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
What is the excuse when someone doesn't play along?
almost everyone does play along

Quote:
If I were up there, I would not have taken off me shoe.
Perhaps, but the hypnotist will not be the one who "looks bad" in that situation. You will. Until you are in that situation, with everybody looking at you, it is hard to imagine the level of pressure to conform to expectations. You look like a fool for taking off your shoe, but you look like an asshole for refusing. (insert Pono video reference here) From the show business point of view, there is usually more than one person on stage, so he could 'skip' past you if you were really ruining the show.

Quote:
Not unless I was actually hypnotized.
It's a good bet you probably would not have been up there in the first place. Would you volunteer? The hypnotist often does some exercises. One simple exercise is to ask people hold their arm straight out and when he says "now", to release their arm and let it drop down. Some people instantly go limp and their arm literally falls down totally by gravity. Other people rather more carefully "lower" their arms like a railroad gate. The people in the former group are 'good subjects' and are chosen to participate further. The people who lower their arms are indicating they are loathe to relinquish Control - i.e. bad subjects and will be passed over.

Quote:
So...is hypnosis really a big crock?
if you don't believe in it, it is!

OTOH, the guy really did take off his shoe, so...

We got my dad hypnosis to quit smoking as a gift. It did not work, probably because it was our idea, not his. There is certainly nothing like the movies where they can hypnotize someone to rob a bank or shoot a President and he doesn't even remember.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4211
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
I did too; he told me (and demonstrated) that he selects a group of willing volunteers and then selects the best candidate from the group. Studies do show there is a strong voluntary component in hypnosis and it's possible that some of the artists could be afflicted...but I think it's unlikely that Neil Young managed to hypnotise everyone in the video.
just depends on your definition of hypnotized

are not these people "selected"? many of them are probably self-selected
Old 28th April 2014
  #4212
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Like JJ said, you just want to pick fights Chrisso.. not sure why.

The problem is you can't separate out your feelings of superiority vs. assumption.
Absolute garbage.
It was claimed the artists in the video might not be very good at assessing quality audio (I'll put it politely).
I posted saying I doubt that would be the case - and this based on actual experience over decades, working in the studio with similar level artists (and yes I've worked with more than one in the video).
You keep posting stuff like they might not get to ok their own masters.
You're posting hypotheticals and guess work based on your scepticism of Pono and your belief in 'expectation bias'.
I'm posting insight based on actual experience.
It has zero to do with 'superiority', or wanting to 'pick a fight'. It's plain and simple commentary backed up by experience. Heavens above that I could post some genuine thoughts based on decades of experience - and all you can retort is that it's solely about picking a fight.
Make a genuine argument that artists with a decade or more experience making albums with the best engineers and producers in the business, still have not learnt anything or refined their ear. And make the argument based on actual experience rather than a gut feeling or a hunch (aka bias against 'rock stars').
Old 28th April 2014
  #4213
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Joe, didn't the perfectly succinct explanation from chrisso why, IF one of these guys didn't want to play along, they wouldn't even be in the video anymore, if they ever were around in the first place, register with you?

Meanwhile you're still rabbiting on about a stretch about hypnotism. Really? I know you like to play 'turn the word around', but where you are now is not even thin ice. You've been swimming for a while already and don't even know it.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4214
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post

are not these people "selected"? many of them are probably self-selected
Yeah, but when you are in the public eye and command some respect (unlike punters in a hypnotism show) you self select based on something you can honestly stand behind. You don't just walk into a filming session un-forewarned and unprepared. Well maybe you would as a debut artist in your 20's, but how many of those are in the video?

I'm not saying the video is key evidence proving Pono's claims. I'm saying, even if you are a sceptic, you can't just write the video off as un-believable or mass naivety.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4215
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
That says waaay more about your posts than mine.
Sure does.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4216
Gear Guru
 

and now it really starts to get interesting:


Geek Wave is a DAC and headphone amp that connects to your phone. The deluxe model has 256 gigs of extra storage and a double life battery. It is currently being crowdsourced on IndieGoGo. How about that?

The company is called LightWave and they make the DaVinci DAC which is a 384k capable USB 2.0 consumer DAC

They apparently got into some "trouble" for hewing a little too closely to the Pono video in terms of style and featuring a half-eaten Toblerone bar!

"Wow!" says one girl with the headphones on, "it's really LOUD"


well, you can't accuse them of being dishonest about where the "sounds better" comes from
Old 28th April 2014
  #4217
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephi82 View Post

However, as I mentioned, and as I have read, there have been many snarky comments and posts made about reviews of the PONO system made by artists and consumers, dismissing them as uneducated and subject to confirmation bias.

These posters essentially state that artists and consumers dont have the experience, intellect and listening "tools" to differentiate between truly better playback equipment Vs playback equipment that PONO says is better.
Is it snarky to say we are all victims of confirmation bias? I don't think it is! Once you understand the truth of your own bias, you realize you can't trust your own perception. Is that snarky? Doesn't feel like it it me. It feels fascinating... interesting. I LOVE this stuff.

The human mind is a marvelous combination of reason and mush, it's hilarious.

It could very well be these artists don't understand confirmation bias and are overconfident in their ability to hear the difference. It could be there really IS a difference. We all start off being ignorant. It's a lifelong process of eliminating ignorance. Artists are no different, why would they be?
Old 28th April 2014
  #4218
Gear Guru
 

and of course there is the Fiio X3 which is available now, 24/192 $199

alas, no 'signature' models, it seems

FIIO

also it is not shaped like a certain Swiss chocolate bar
Attached Thumbnails
Launch of Pono-fiio.jpg  
Old 28th April 2014
  #4219
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpro View Post
Excuse me but he has made statements alluding to engineering besides his drumming. Funny you pop in to post that and nothing else. You really don't have anything constructive to say here do you? I did not think so. Try harder next time.
You really missed the point.
Yes, he's made comments about engineering and musicianship. In order to judge how accurate and well informed those comments are, you need to know his history. At least we can research his history. Yours, not so much...

Edit: ... but it's out there if you start from your GS profile and use Google. OK. My first point stands.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4220
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Absolute garbage.
It was claimed the artists in the video might not be very good at assessing quality audio (I'll put it politely).
Why assume they are good? I don't. I'm sure some are VERY good.. and I'm sure some are NOT. You might even be able to tell us which is which.

Quote:
You keep posting stuff like they might not get to ok their own masters.
I have read interviews where some major artists said it. That's all. Is it true or false? Are they lying?

Quote:
I'm posting insight based on actual experience.
I wish you would.. who, among those in the video, are hands on and have great ears? That would be very helpful information that you somehow don't answer. Why not?

Quote:
Make a genuine argument that artists with a decade or more experience making albums with the best engineers and producers in the business, still have not learnt anything or refined their ear.
I have never made a claim. My only claim is I don't assume they CAN hear the difference just because they are rock stars. See? I don't have any desire to prove the absence of listening skills. I don't care either way. I just don't assume because they are rock stars they are necessarily capable of hearing small differences in audio. After all.. these are the guys with hearing damage in many cases due to loud concerts.

Again Chrisso, if you would stop trying to pick a fight all the time it could be a more enjoyable conversation.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4221
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
We all start off being ignorant.
No ****. Some of us stay that way.

Just because expectation bias exists is absolutely no reason to not trust your senses. Merely means be aware of their pitfalls. BIG difference.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4222
Gear Guru
 

and the Astell and Kern

starting at $699 also available now

Old 29th April 2014
  #4223
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Is it snarky to say we are all victims of confirmation bias? I don't think it is! Once you understand the truth of your own bias, you realize you can't trust your own perception. Is that snarky? Doesn't feel like it it me. It feels fascinating... interesting. I LOVE this stuff.

The human mind is a marvelous combination of reason and mush, it's hilarious.
I wouldn't put it that harshly.

The reason we survived on the savannah as hairless, clawless, fangless critters is in great part because of our ability to integrate all of our senses and understand what was going on better than the critters with the claws and fangs, and then know what to do with our tools.

We still integrate all senses, all the time, regardless of what we might want to do, so that is a major cause of "confirmation bias", simply put we are looking at a gigantic quantity of input from our eyes and ears (and other senses) and homing in on the part we expect to be there.

If you look back to the heyser lecture deck, you'll notice that we reduce many megabits/second of information down to maybe 10 bits or 20 bits/second and except for the reflexive part of that in the periphery (i.e. eye and ear) every bit of that process can be guided and directed both consciously and unconsciously.

It's just how people work.

It's not delusion, hallucination, or foolishness, it's how people work. It's why we are what we are.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4224
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post

It could very well be these artists don't understand confirmation bias and are overconfident in their ability to hear the difference. It could be there really IS a difference. We all start off being ignorant. It's a lifelong process of eliminating ignorance. Artists are no different, why would they be?
The only difference is that it's part of an artists job.
Yeah, it could be anything in theory. How long is a piece of string?
But in two days of asking, no one has been prepared to agree that Martin Scorsese doesn't know superior cinematography and film editing when he sees it.

He is steeped in Italian culture, spent his childhood enthralled by movies. So he has plenty of potential for 'expectation bias' when it comes to nostalgic Italian movies of the 50's and 60's.

But as far as I've ever read, no one has ever questioned his eye for cinematography, despite him not being a cinematographer. Whereas people in this thread are happy to suggest artists - who have been listening to great sounding albums since childhood, and worked with many of the great recording engineers and record producers, are susceptible to 'expectation bias' when it comes to analysing audio.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4225
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
I wish you would.. who, among those in the video, are hands on and have great ears? That would be very helpful information that you somehow don't answer. Why not?
Because you make sarcastic comments to me about 'awesome careers' and 'yours is bigger'?
You know who I've worked with, so i don't know why you keep goading me, is it because you believe I'm lying?
It's not about me, it's never about me. It's about Pono. And all I've done is offer some insight based on actual experience.
Actual hands on experience has value compared to "I read it in an interview" right?
I've worked with Elvis Costello.
I've worked on Don Was and Elton John projects. I've toured with Was Not Was (inc Don Was) as my support act.
I respect the values and skill Jim Keltner has brought to the drumming community and am not inclined to view him as naive or a liar.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4226
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Whereas people in this thread are happy to suggest artists - who have been listening to great sounding albums since childhood, and worked with many of the great recording engineers and record producers, are susceptible to 'expectation bias' when it comes to analysing audio.
You do understand that making an artistic original is one task, and figuring out how to deliver it is a different task, do you not?

The same goes for Scorsese, actually, I doubt he is terribly involved in the act of transferring the edited original into copies to distribute to theatres.

You're confusing two different things.

Cinematography is part of the creative process.

Transferring to film, dubbing in the sound, etc, are part of the delivery process.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4227
Tech Crunch interviews Pono's John Hamm: Pono's New High Fidelity Music Player - TC Gadgets | TechCrunch TV

Interviewer listens to Pono and says:"...it really sounds like you're right there..." - maybe she's hypnotised too?
Old 29th April 2014
  #4228
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
You know who I've worked with
No, again, I really don't. I'm not going to go through and reconcile your discography and the pono interviews.

Quote:
I've worked with Elvis Costello.
I've worked on Don Was and Elton John projects. I've toured with Was Not Was (inc Don Was) as my support act.
I respect the values and skill Jim Keltner has brought to the drumming community and am not inclined to view him as naive or a liar.
Nobody is naive or a liar if they don't understand the impact of confirmation bias... it might be they just don't understand how it works because they are not exposed to it.

The other question is, of the people you mention above, would you say they are all hands on and are involved in final mixes and/or mastering of their records?

The other question is, have you worked with artists who are NOT involved in final mixes and mastering?
Old 29th April 2014
  #4229
Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post
We still integrate all senses, all the time, regardless of what we might want to do, so that is a major cause of "confirmation bias", simply put we are looking at a gigantic quantity of input from our eyes and ears (and other senses) and homing in on the part we expect to be there.
There's a reasonable argument that musicians are more aware of confirmation bias than ordinary people. We confront a multitude of sonic choices and confirmation bias from the beginnings of our careers.
Many 'good' things I've experienced have been rare and expensive things.
Like my 1920's Black Beauty, or recording through an EMI TGI console. It could be confirmation bias deluding me, or they could actually be superior bits of kit.
An average day in the studio comprises an almost continuous stream of subjective decision making, from what do you think of this bass sound, to should we use patch 22 in bank A, or patch 01 from bank B for this keyboard part.
It's not uncommon to choose the balsa wood bass over the collector's '63 Precision, because one just works with the part. It's not uncommon to have to decide between the $500 API 512c or the $2500 Neve 1073 for the bass drum mic.
You can't be a professional musician and be naive about sound choices, although you can be naive about the processes to achieve certain sounds.
It's therefore not unreasonable to suggest experienced artists have learnt about sonic choices, and are also aware of confirmation bias and the way a particular environment can effect your choices - more so than the average member of the public.
Old 29th April 2014
  #4230
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
But in two days of asking, no one has been prepared to agree that Martin Scorsese doesn't know superior cinematography and film editing when he sees it.
Again, you use Scorsese but you really should be using Tom Cruise as your analogy. Does an actor necessarily know cinematography? Many do! Some don't!

Does a musician know mixing and mastering? Many do.. some don't!

Don't make assumptions.
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump