The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 28th April 2014
  #4171
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpro View Post

Part of the problems with the comments can also be attributed to I believe the statement Flea made from the Red Hot Chili Peppers. The bass sounds like rubber bands on anything besides Pono. Yes I paraphrased it but I think you can agree its a somewhat far fetched comment. If he had said wow Pono sounds great there would be no problem. The problem lies in over descriptive terms that exaggerate.
Christ, the guy is an artist. He can be expected to describe something in a picture like that, can he not? There is nothing measurable ( and hence to be called incorrect for some reason) about that picture other than that he obviously wants to convey Pono is the best delivery sound of his bass he has experienced. What else do you need to know?

It's the same as your clients asking you to make their sounds "more blue, more brown, more whatever..." and basically just meaning make it "BETTER".

To me, a comment from someone like this is actually worth far more than some sort of technical statement, as he is one to get the part of sound that either connects with you or not on a sensory level. And this is something really good artists often know more about than even good engineers. Because this is their business, to connect with the listener's feeling. Many engineers' business is merely to put seeming order to frequencies. How's that for another 'assumption'.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4172
Lives for gear
 
Dpro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Christ, the guy is an artist. He can be expected to describe something in a picture like that, can he not? There is nothing measurable ( and hence to be called incorrect for some reason) about that picture other than that he obviously wants to convey Pono is the best delivery sound of his bass he has experienced. What else do you need to know?

It's the same as your clients asking you to make their sounds "more blue, more brown, more whatever..." and basically just meaning make it "BETTER".

To me, a comment from someone like this is actually worth far more than some sort of technical statement, as he is one to get the part of sound that either connects with you or not on a sensory level. And this is something really good artists often know more about than even good engineers. Because this is their business, to connect with the listener's feeling. Many engineers' business is merely to put seeming order to frequencies. How's that for another 'assumption'.
Karloff I said I was tired and pretty much done with this thread. I am not going to explain things yet again just because you like to cherry pick and jump in randomly. Goodbye and goodnight.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4173
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpro View Post
I almost think perhaps you skimmed some of my posts from a few days ago as you would have seen I was in the camp alongside JJ .
You seem to think I'm singling you out.
Most of my comments are general.
I mention the Pono sceptic crowd from time to time as a short cut. I tend to agree with some, perhaps a lot of what they type.
Really I guess I'm only saying it might….just might not all be snake oil.
And in my experience most musicians are fairly average, ordinary, genuine people. This view that tends to crop up on Gearslutz about greedy, or naive, or basically corrupt artists is just a negative myth - in my experience.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4174
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post
I don't see any point in trying to crucify any particular 192kHz proponent. Many, many people do not accept the well-established understanding of human perception, cognitive steering, cross-sensory influence, and the like.

It's a hard lesson to learn. Don't turn them off, try to educate them. This does not mean that you should accept being called names, and it most certainly does not mean one should revisit the entire subject for someone who comes in late without reading the whole thread, but it does mean that questioning overt motivation (note the qualification overt, please) is NOT always appropriate.
amen! in this other thread you called me a nihilist after this other guy called me religious (sort of funny), lets all virtually shake and move it along.

one serious question;

you say 20/60k would be ideal

do you mean that this is as good as pcm can get?

or

is this as good as any digital system can get?

or

that this ensures sonic transparency, in other words, digital sounding analogue?
Old 28th April 2014
  #4175
Airwindows
 
chrisj's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post
I don't see any point in trying to crucify any particular 192kHz proponent. Many, many people do not accept the well-established understanding of human perception, cognitive steering, cross-sensory influence, and the like.

It's a hard lesson to learn. Don't turn them off, try to educate them. This does not mean that you should accept being called names, and it most certainly does not mean one should revisit the entire subject for someone who comes in late without reading the whole thread, but it does mean that questioning overt motivation (note the qualification overt, please) is NOT always appropriate.
Nor should people be calling names (like 'mafia') and haranguing celebrity endorsers, insisting they are nothing but treacherous fraudsters who don't believe a thing they're saying. There's no evidence to indicate that and the simplest explanation is that the celebrity endorsers got excited about what they were hearing.

As for 192K, I still think the most important thing there is that Pono's said to be using an odd technique (arguably fatally flawed: jj insists it is hopelessly broken and I don't think that's true in practice) which totally changes the claim. Rather than faithfully conveying frequencies up to 96K, known to be way out of the human hearing range, they are averaging and throwing out all those frequencies (either cleanly or crudely) in order to do something else.

That something else equates to oversampling, but using real data for the upsample. I think this is pretty obvious, and that the results are easily predictable.

Since they are 'extended resolution in the wordlength domain' and that is ALREADY 24 bit, I suspect it's already well beyond what people could blind test consistently.

So, it comes down to how much people care about fugitive audio sensations they won't always notice. I care about those, and so do others, but you can't argue it is 'obvious', it is by definition not obvious. So the whole thing about Pono is conclusively perfecting digital audio in all the subtle and not-obvious ways that aren't needed all the time.

Seems to impress a bunch of old celebrities, some of whom are pretty picky about their sounds. Nobody is going to have to prove that their affection for Ponoplayers is consistent to a 95% confidence level, as casual users. As long as they keep getting occasional hints of 'better' as needed, they'll form the opinion that there's something worth having there. Some people may never reach that conclusion.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4176
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpro View Post
Excuse me but he has made statements alluding to engineering besides his drumming. Funny you pop in to post that and nothing else. You really don't have anything constructive to say here do you? I did not think so. Try harder next time.
Dude are you serious? Most of the people on this site (and the internet in general) are just blowing smoke out of their asses. Chris has got serious credentials. Show some respect.

I'm guessing he knows the nuances of the sound coming off a cymbal far better than you. And there is nothing more affected by recording on ANY medium than the sound of the cymbals.

Back in the day, after my initial excitement about the sound of CD's, and when I first started questioning that sound, it was Boston's 'More Than A Feeling' I was using for my own test back and forth between that and the vinyl.

And it was the cymbal sound that was the most obvious sore thumb.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4177
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Case in point….





It's just character assassination as J_J puts it. Guesswork based on what? It seems based on negative, cynical thoughts you have for successful musicians.



Every one of them is lying in the hope of lining their pockets?

Exactly. This whole thread is so cynical. These people may be wrong about their conclusions, but it won't be because they are getting paid for it.

They love good sound quality and it sounds good to them, that is all they are saying. There is nothing more to it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixmixmix View Post
Not everybody is a liar , actor, opprrtunist etc. The point is that testimonials FROM the manufacturer cannot be trusted. Period.
They can't be trusted to be 100% accurate in every case. But certainly testimonials can be accurate and many good products have taken hold because of them. Baby/bathwater kind of thing.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4178
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Christ, the guy is an artist. He can be expected to describe something in a picture like that, can he not? There is nothing measurable ( and hence to be called incorrect for some reason) about that picture other than that he obviously wants to convey Pono is the best delivery sound of his bass he has experienced. What else do you need to know?

It's the same as your clients asking you to make their sounds "more blue, more brown, more whatever..." and basically just meaning make it "BETTER".

To me, a comment from someone like this is actually worth far more than some sort of technical statement, as he is one to get the part of sound that either connects with you or not on a sensory level. And this is something really good artists often know more about than even good engineers. Because this is their business, to connect with the listener's feeling. Many engineers' business is merely to put seeming order to frequencies. How's that for another 'assumption'.
Plus flea never said it was a bass, we don't know what he was listening to, it could have been Dylan's acoustic, which, when on an mp3 could sound small and twangy and when at Hi Res sounds much better. All we are doing is speculating but some people lose their minds over this stuff….
Old 28th April 2014
  #4179
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Exactly. This whole thread is so cynical. These people may be wrong about their conclusions, but it won't be because they are getting paid for it.

They love good sound quality and it sounds good to them, that is all they are saying. There is nothing more to it.



They can't be trusted to be 100% accurate in every case. But certainly testimonials can be accurate and many good products have taken hold because of them. Baby/bathwater kind of thing.
It may be cynical, but I don't think you get Sting's endorsement because you ran into him on the street and he said Oh yeah sure Neil. You are going to have to have lawyers involved, and agents: there will have to be contracts drawn up attesting to the nature of the use; if you want to film Gordon Sumner aka Sting he will likely impose a set of constraints designed to make sure he looks good at all times. He or his people will demand approval of everything you use. It looks casual to us, but it's SUPPOSED to look casual to us. In reality I suspect those endorsements required many hours of work by guys in suits, and many pages of legal contract.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4180
Lives for gear
 
Ephi82's Avatar
 

As I continue to read this thread, I hear the sound of Billy Preston's hit

"Will It Go Round in Circles" playing in the background.......

The same general positions come up over and over and over again, with varying degrees of civility, and in too many cases, total lack thereof.

What I find very surprising, and disappointing, is that I perceive that some posters who are technical/audio engineering experts make condescending remarks about the "validity" of an artist's (or consumers) positive experience in listening to PONO.

These same "experts" make similar judgements on a regular basis as to what equipment that they use to make "best" sounding recordings. (converters, monitors, headphones, tracking sample/bit rates etc)

I suppose you guys are immune to confirmation bias and equipment manufacturer's marketing messaging, eh?
Old 28th April 2014
  #4181
mixmixmix
Guest
Nobody is immune to any bias. We are talking here about dishonest marketing of Pono. It is not about audio related issues. It is about morals. Welcome to the thread.

I don't think this thread is cynical. Some of the posters have experiences of being lied to by manufacturers. It is their personal choice not to trust this particular advertising campaign. You may call it cynical, I call it cautious.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4182
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
You actually know who I've worked with. So no need for any specifics in that department. But if you must, yeah, I've worked with a couple of the artists in the video.
Believe it or not who you worked with in that video is not top of mind for me.

Quote:
Seems strange you pull out the 'awesome' and 'mines bigger than yours' comments, but then keep asking me to talk about the 'rock stars' I've worked with.
Chrisso, you pulled it out of your pants to begin with where it wasn't appropriate. I was only not wanting to make an assumption, but where you have first hand knowledge of people in the video and their ability to hear detail, that would be an interesting discussion IMO. There is a difference between showing off your superiority and adding to an honest discussion.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4183
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
But hold on…. you are assuming they've been 'taken' by a 'snake oil product'.
based on what evidence?
I'm not at all.

I swear I have to repeat things like 3-4 times before you actually comprehend.

I said there are four possibilities that I see as to why those people came out with an awesome review of Pono. Do you remember now? Only ONE of those is confirmation bias. I DO think that's the most likely, but that's not an assumption.

Right here: https://www.gearslutz.com/board/10064548-post4143.html

Quote:
We have to take higher, scientific advice on the 192khz claim, but that doesn't rule out the remasters are a revelation, or there is something in the sonics of the player that wows people.
Um... yea, that's what I said.

Quote:
I mean no one here has heard it (except one sporadic contributor), you say you have no opinion on Pono, but effectively describe it as 'snake oil' a line later when I ask why so many varied artists have endorsed Pono.
I think it IS probably snake oil based on the "underwater" marketing and my understanding of how confirmation bias works. Again, not an assumption just a guess based on what is possible to know.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4184
mixmixmix
Guest
Pono claims to be the best sound ever. I claim it is a blatant lie. Looks balanced to me.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4185
Is Pono's 'Underwater' metaphor representative in the ratio between water-depth and type of audio file: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] +0ft?

20ft above 96K seems plausible...in a marketing metaphor...if Pono does sound as good as they say/claim.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4186
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
Is Pono's 'Underwater' metaphor representative in the ratio between water-depth and type of audio file: [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected]; [email protected] +0ft?

20ft above 96K seems plausible...in a marketing metaphor...if Pono does sound as good as they say/claim.
Nice one!!
Old 28th April 2014
  #4187
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Look at it this way, if their filter design is messed up, it might well sound better at 192! This doesn't mean 192 is necessary for all designs. I've heard a Benchmark 96k ADC/DAC combo trounce a Korg DSD system that in turn trounced a bunch of very common converters. I'm convinced that implementation is everything as opposed to format in digital audio.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4188
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisj View Post

As for 192K, I still think the most important thing there is that Pono's said to be using an odd technique (arguably fatally flawed: jj insists it is hopelessly broken and I don't think that's true in practice) which totally changes the claim. Rather than faithfully conveying frequencies up to 96K, known to be way out of the human hearing range, they are averaging and throwing out all those frequencies (either cleanly or crudely) in order to do something else.

That something else equates to oversampling, but using real data for the upsample. I think this is pretty obvious, and that the results are easily predictable.

Since they are 'extended resolution in the wordlength domain' and that is ALREADY 24 bit, I suspect it's already well beyond what people could blind test consistently.

So, it comes down to how much people care about fugitive audio sensations they won't always notice. I care about those, and so do others, but you can't argue it is 'obvious', it is by definition not obvious. So the whole thing about Pono is conclusively perfecting digital audio in all the subtle and not-obvious ways that aren't needed all the time.
.
Chris, where is it said they're using this technique?
Old 28th April 2014
  #4189
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Look at it this way, if their filter design is messed up, it might well sound better at 192! This doesn't mean 192 is necessary for all designs. I've heard a Benchmark 96k ADC/DAC combo trounce a Korg DSD system that in turn trounced a bunch of very common converters. I'm convinced that implementation is everything as opposed to format in digital audio.
...hence it is actually nonsense to comment on the usefulness of 192 here until it gets put in context of the Pono hardware....which nobody has heard yet.

But all and sundry are pointing out the uselessness of 192 out of this context full barrells. Neat.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4190
Lives for gear
 

Is it easier to design hardware that works optimally at 192K than it is to design hardware that works optimally at 44.1K?

Chris
Old 28th April 2014
  #4191
Lives for gear
 

Old 28th April 2014
  #4192
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris93 View Post
Is it easier to design hardware that works optimally at 192K than it is to design hardware that works optimally at 44.1K?
Most of these folks are bozos cobbling chips together and not really designing anything.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4193
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Most of these folks are bozos cobbling chips together and not really designing anything.
that's a pretty strong statement, especially since the one system you referred to earlier got to see the inside of a cardboard box pretty soonish over here. to each his own
Old 28th April 2014
  #4194
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixmixmix View Post
There is no way Elvis Costello would come out of this Pono car and say " Sorry, can't hear the difference".
I happen to agree with this and IMO, it has nothing to do with Elvis Costello as a person, as a musician, (or as an actor!), nothing to do with admitting to lack of auditory acuity, nothing to do with "go along to get along" specific to the the music industry.

This is simply human nature.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I once had a long talk with a Stage Hypnotist and he said this reaction was responsible for 90% of his act. He would say: "when I light my cigarette, your foot will feel very hot and you will take off your right shoe". I saw him do this. He lit his cigarette and the subject took off his shoe, to the delight of the crowd.

I said: "so the guy was not really hypnotized? He just didn't want to be the Guy Who Spoiled the Fun?" The hypnotist said "I got him to take off his shoe, didn't I?" I said "it's not the same thing" he said: "it IS the same thing. Go ask the guy who took off his shoe, he will tell you he could have refused if he wanted to, but everybody was looking at him expecting him to take his shoe off."

Not taking off his shoe would have been a MORE uncomfortable situation than taking it off, silly as the directions were.

You get out of that car, what are you going to say? Even if some of us Pono Doubters went into that car, we would probably look for something "nice" to say!
Old 28th April 2014
  #4195
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
I happen to agree with this and IMO, it has nothing to do with Elvis Costello as a person, as a musician, (or as an actor!), nothing to do with admitting to lack of auditory acuity, nothing to do with "go along to get along" specific to the the music industry.

This is simply human nature.

As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I once had a long talk with a Stage Hypnotist and he said this reaction was responsible for 90% of his act. He would say: "when I light my cigarette, your foot will feel very hot and you will take off your right shoe". I saw him do this. He lit his cigarette and the subject took off his shoe, to the delight of the crowd.

I said: "so the guy was not really hypnotized? He just didn't want to be the Guy Who Spoiled the Fun?" The hypnotist said "I got him to take off his shoe, didn't I?" I said "it's not the same thing" he said: "it IS the same thing. Go ask the guy who took off his shoe, he will tell you he could have refused if he wanted to, but everybody was looking at him expecting him to take his shoe off."

Not taking off his shoe would have been a MORE uncomfortable situation than taking it off, silly as the directions were.

You get out of that car, what are you going to say? Even if some of us Pono Doubters went into that car, we would probably look for something "nice" to say!

What is the excuse when someone doesn't play along? If I were up there, I would not have taken off me shoe. Not unless I was actually hypnotized. So...is hypnosis really a big crock?
Old 28th April 2014
  #4196
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
There is a difference between showing off your superiority and adding to an honest discussion.
The difference is about actual experience and little or no actual experience.
You wanna keep making it about mr bragging because you commented on things you don't have any experience of.
Have you sat in a recording studio and watched an artist with five or six hit albums under their belt interact with an experienced and excellent recording engineer?
If so, then you comment with more accuracy about the artists in the video.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4197
Lives for gear
 
Ephi82's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mixmixmix View Post
Nobody is immune to any bias. We are talking here about dishonest marketing of Pono. It is not about audio related issues. It is about morals. Welcome to the thread.

I don't think this thread is cynical. Some of the posters have experiences of being lied to by manufacturers. It is their personal choice not to trust this particular advertising campaign. You may call it cynical, I call it cautious.
Sorry, no, you totally ignored my point. You changed the debate point!

There has been much discussion by posters about the claims made in PONO's marketing and I agree that they are unwise to trumpet sampling rate as a major reason for the performance of their product.

However, as I mentioned, and as I have read, there have been many snarky comments and posts made about reviews of the PONO system made by artists and consumers, dismissing them as uneducated and subject to confirmation bias.

These posters essentially state that artists and consumers dont have the experience, intellect and listening "tools" to differentiate between truly better playback equipment Vs playback equipment that PONO says is better.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4198
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post

You get out of that car, what are you going to say? Even if some of us Pono Doubters went into that car, we would probably look for something "nice" to say!
Simply because no one with any industry experience allows them self to be filmed doing something for the first time (like a new product) when the outcome appears to be an endorsement.
It's absolute 101 to say "Mr Costello would like to hear it first".
It's also 101, if you are ambushed, to get some manager to call Pono and remove Mr Costello from the video. It doesn't have to be Elvis embarrassing Neil by backing out, just a conversation between two business suits. Music industry 101.
I could buy one or two being ambushed, but not the entire group of business savvy, endorsement savvy artists.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4199
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
The difference is about actual experience and little or no actual experience.
You wanna keep making it about mr bragging because you commented on things you don't have any experience of.
Have you sat in a recording studio and watched an artist with five or six hit albums under their belt interact with an experienced and excellent recording engineer?
If so, then you comment with more accuracy about the artists in the video.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4200
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Simply because no one with any industry experience allows them self to be filmed doing something for the first time (like a new product) when the outcome appears to be an endorsement.
It's absolute 101 to say "Mr Costello would like to hear it first".
It's also 101, if you are ambushed, to get some manager to call Pono and remove Mr Costello from the video. It doesn't have to be Elvis embarrassing Neil by backing out, just a conversation between two business suits. Music industry 101.
I could buy one or two being ambushed, but not the entire group of business savvy, endorsement savvy artists.
Indeed. Also some heavy hitting producers there and engineers as it goes. Rick Rubin? Doesn't know **** about good sound....lol...probably doing it for greed or to 'help his mates'....lol
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump