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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 13th March 2014
  #391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
Yes, but nobody the most persnickety nerd DOES that. I'm talking in practical cultural terms here. Not pure robot logic.

Do you remember 13 years ago when the iPod came out? And nerds on internet forums were like "So? What's the big deal? There are already tons of MP3 players out there... Who's gonna care?..."

And here we are.

Cultural penetration is a real thing! This is what Steve Jobs understood. This is what Neil Young is trying to do. We'll see if he succeeds...

Many [maybe most?] of my friends treat music as an afterthought and sound quality as a non-thought. Pono seems to be exciting an entirely different discussion.

Again: I think Pono stands a chance of being a viable niche format, like vinyl. I don't think it will become the dominant thing. [Although that would be nice!]

If I had money to invest, I'd buy stock in the company if it was publicly traded. I think it's a good bet.

- c
I bought so many iPods when they came out - the little hdds kept dying.
But the first iPods - say second gen on where flat out audiophile devices. Really top quality parts, converters, whatever makes up an iPod. I remember reading a really really long article on gen 2 in an audiophile mag - you know the ones with adds for $45000 turntables.
But then as I saw more of those white buds around and then more and more and the iPod became a cash cow high turnover throw away device with the worst possible components.
One thing that seems to be missing is in all this social anthropology on 00s musical de-evolution into mp3 low bit rate, is those white buds. Totally rubbish as we all know. .
So I have been wearing my aka 701s as headphones on the bus for years but one thing I've noticed and this is a definent cultural change is the dr dre beats phenomenon - they too are total rubbish bass heavy awful things but they signal a change that people want to hear better quality music - but there are at least 3 components to this : the bit rate of the music, quality of the delivery device and the headphones that are to used to hear this hi def music. And it's now Lookimg good I think. This maybe a cultural change as well with this new device - anything trying to deliver better quality would have to be championed by us I would have thought.
Old 13th March 2014
  #392
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogma View Post
This may be a cultural change as well with this new device - anything trying to deliver better quality would have to be championed by us I would have thought.
Me too. But nope! We'd be wrong.

- c
Old 13th March 2014
  #393
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Decompress's Avatar
 

This looks great, that's for posting about it.
Old 13th March 2014
  #394
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Decompress's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sam guaiana View Post
Also this things quality is skeptical. If I'm spending thousands on a Burl DAC, what makes you think I'll be content with a $400 DAC and a probably crappy headphone amp
I doubt the Pono player will impress anybody who has a Burl DAC installed in their car.

As for the amp, Ayre doesn't make junk.
Old 13th March 2014
  #395
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
Me too. But nope! We'd be wrong.
Ironic, isn't it? But unsurprising. What I still can't figure out is why "Audiophile" is considered an epithet and reduced to a ridiculous stereotype around here. Who do you think will be buying Pono downloads once the novelty wears off? Audiophiles. The same people who are already buying hi-res digital, vinyl, and good CDs, and who wouldn't dream of assaulting their ears with MP3s.

If there's any group of consumers whom audio engineers should appreciate, it's the dreaded Audiophiles. Who else is going to care what mic preamps or what vintage compressor you used? The value of such esoterica is lost on the general public.

N.B. I'm using the word in its standard dictionary sense, not the GS-warped variant. To me, an Audiophile is anyone who wants the best sound possible. That's it.

Cheers,
Eddie
Old 13th March 2014
  #396
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie TX View Post
Ironic, isn't it? But unsurprising. What I still can't figure out is why "Audiophile" is considered an epithet and reduced to a ridiculous stereotype around here.
Four words.

Five hundred dollar interconnects.

Five more.

Five hundred dollar power cables.

Old 13th March 2014
  #397
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Hello backers!

We have gone through tons of your questions/comments/messages and have worked to respond to many of them. We came across a handful that address similar issues, so we wanted to share our answers here.

Also, keep in mind that a lot of your PonoMusic-related questions can be answered in our FAQ at the bottom of our campaign page. Kickstarter-related questions are addressed in their FAQ.

We hope this helps, and of course, thanks so so much for the support!

1. What headphones do you recommend? The audio experience is excellent with any decent headphones or earbuds from many of the well-respected brands. We've used products ranging from $80 up with top results. At our press demo yesterday, Ayre used Sennheiser Momentum headphones that retail for $300. We've also gotten amazing results using Audeze headphones, Etymotic in-ears, and many others. To those asking why we didn't bundle headphones, it's because many already own a pair and we wanted to offer the PonoPlayer at the best price possible. That said, we will be providing more recommendations and offering several models for sale when we launch our online store after the Kickstarter campaign.

2. Can I use the PonoPlayer with Linux? There will be desktop software for Mac and PC computers for managing and adding your content to the player like iTunes, but there are no plans for an app for Linux. You will likely be able to add songs to the MicroSD card, which will appear on your Linux computer as an external drive.

3. Can I change/increase my order? Yes, you can. Visit the project page and click “Manage Your Pledge.” Enter a new amount in the pledge amount box. Note that you are not adding to your existing pledge; the amount you enter will be the total amount collected. Also, increasing the amount of a pledge doesn't automatically change the reward you receive. If you would like a higher tier reward, you would need to select that reward when increasing the pledge. If you want to double-check that your pledge and reward selections are accurate, you can always refer to the Backer History: https://www.kickstarter.com/profile/backings

4. Can you make special shipping arrangements (make as gift to avoid duty, avoid VAT taxes, etc.)? Unfortunately, no.

5. How do I cancel my order? If you must cancel, visit the project page and click “Manage Your Pledge.” At the bottom of the next page you’ll see the “Cancel Pledge” button.

6. Can you offer more players with Neil's autograph? Because the Artist Signature Series is limited edition, we cannot offer more of this specific category since it is sold out. But do check out all the other excellent artists in the series! More to come...

7. Will Pono support DSD playback? No plans on this first release. We are focused specifically on PCM at this time because it has broad acceptance, and when done properly, still offers the best sonic solution. While DSD is also a great format, it simply doesn’t have broad enough acceptance by consumers, studios, or labels.

8. Will there be a Pono Mac app to play the FLAC files I purchase on PonoMusic? Yes. I would suggest using a simple file converter application such as this … Max from sbooth.org

9. Does the PonoPlayer use Bluetooth? No Bluetooth. Audio over Bluetooth is not suitable for high resolution.

10. Any DRM limits on PonoMusic? None.

11. Can I use the player with my car's USB port and see the songs on my car's display? No. You can use the player as an auxiliary source and plug it into the car's input connector.

12. Where will the PonoMusic Store be available? The PonoMusic.com Store will launch in the US, UK, and Canada. We plan to grow and expand from there.

13. I would love to be an artist featured in the PonoMusic.com Store! How can I? Awesome! Please send an email to [email protected].

14. Do you have any plans to make any more $200 Early Bird players available? Unfortunately, no. That is the nature of the Early Bird option! We encourage you to consider the yellow and black players, which are still discounted. Plus stay tuned for more Artist Signature Series players.

15. I just bought a PonoPlayer but would love to also get a T-shirt! How can I? Kickstarter only allows for one reward per donor. I'd recommend using another credit card. Thanks for your support!
Old 13th March 2014
  #398
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sleepingbag's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie TX View Post
Who do you think will be buying Pono downloads once the novelty wears off?
9000-year-old people
Old 14th March 2014
  #399
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
Neil has been obsessed with this since CDs started.Even as he was selling tons of CD's he was frank about how much he loathed them and how much despair he felt that we'd settled at 16/44 for no reason.
his disdain for digital audio was - in the past - much broader than a complaint about "settling" for 16/44. It was an across-the-board slam at the very concept of digital recording itself. Only analog was good enough for him, for decades if memory serves me correctly!

Now that Neil Young and the Pono people have seen that analog is never 'coming back' and apparently DSD is "too difficult" they have themselves settled for 24/192. Whatever, it's still PCM encoding. What prompted this turnaround? The 'stairsteps' are smaller? .

If a few extra bits and couple of sample rate doublings can remove all the objections to "digital" and make it sound "more analog" why wait until NOW to say so? It is the SAME RESOLUTION supported by DVD-A. Where were Neil Young and the Pono people when DVD-A was sinking and could have used some support?

These resolutions have been available for quite some time, and yes for consumers. And these same people looked down their nose at them because they were "digital". Now they have a toy to sell, and 24/192 is not only suddenly "OK", it is the Second Coming.

All the people lining up for this box: did you buy a DVD-A or an SACD player when they came out? Have an account at HD Tracks? Do you walk the walk?

No wonder I am filled with cynicism.
Old 14th March 2014
  #400
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
... The 'stairsteps' are smaller? ....
That is very important as you get older!!!
Old 14th March 2014
  #401
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post

All the people lining up for this box: did you buy a DVD-A or an SACD player when they came out? Have an account at HD Tracks? Do you walk the walk?

No wonder I am filled with cynicism.
I share your cynicism, but that said... if you believed in SACD or DVD-A, you still had no way to take your music with you. So in that way it IS something new.
Old 14th March 2014
  #402
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
I share your cynicism, but that said... if you believed in SACD or DVD-A, you still had no way to take your music with you. So in that way it IS something new.
yeah, but take it with you where?

everyone is waxing ecstatic about the supposed resurgence in concern for better sound this is "going to" create. Not just higher sample rates and bit depths, but also that somehow this will lead to unsmashed masters, special "Pono Mixes" and the return of dynamic range.

But unless you are sitting down and listening to some really good speakers in your living room or den, or sitting by a quiet lake with a great pair of isolating phones, you are just using the music as wallpaper. Like everybody else. People are listening to their mp3's, they are riding the subway, driving in their car, or having lunch in the company cafeteria.

Aren't the circumstances of the listening experience - distractions/background noise, speaker/headphone quality, uninterrupted time, comfort, refreshments (!), just as critical - if not more so - to truly appreciating the sonic experience of listening to great music, well recorded?

This whole notion that uncompressed 16 bit CD resolution "isn't good enough" for riding on the bus strikes me as odd.
Old 14th March 2014
  #403
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
Being that my issue is with the video, allow me to take it testimonial by testimonial:

1. Marc Ford - Black Crowes - "Blown away by the sound. I've never heard music like that before."

So, apparently he was never in the studio to hear any of the masters on his record? He just heard the final cd?

2. David Crosby - "Might be the best sound I ever heard. Ever in my life".

Also, never heard his original analog masters?

3. Gillian Welch - "We just heard some of the best digital music we ever heard".

Again. This playback device seems to surpass the original recordings.

4. Arcade Fire - "When you switch from 192 to CD you're like Whoa!!! It lops the low end off"

5. Flea - "Listen to the CD and it sounds like someone twanging on a rubber band compared to the full scope of what music is"

6. Taylor Hawkins "Sound has gotten so bad. Drums don't sound like drums anymore. And this sounds like you got a record player in your car."

I'm glad that the drums sound like drums again.

7. Chris Robinson - "It's starting to sound like a really amazing warm analog recording."

8. Bruce Springsteen - "What he's done is create something with a warm analog sound that takes even your digital records, gives them a certain sort of bottom, certain sort of glue, and more than anything else, a closeness. an intimacy. That digital recording can lose very easily."

9. Jackson Brown - "The difference is so easy to hear. Everyone should check this out."

10. "The Highs were like butter and everything was in it's place"

11. "It's unbelievable. You're right in the middle of this amazing thing".

I think you get the idea.
If I was cynical I would say it's all a load of **** to trick people into buying everything again, in a new format. Right? Every name in that list has a vested interest in fans spending money on their old libraries, in a new format.
Old 14th March 2014
  #404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joelpatterson View Post
That is very important as you get older!!!
Hahahaha!
Old 14th March 2014
  #405
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steveswisher's Avatar
 

Will Pono make all the mp3's that I got from Napster sound better?
Old 14th March 2014
  #406
Quote:
Originally Posted by T'Mershi Duween View Post
What exactly, does your generation care about?

It certainly isn't good music or culture or differentiating yourself from preceding generations by doing something remarkable and unique.

How about how lame and unoriginal you appear to most other generations?

Whiny entitlement and underachieving does not make for "greatest generation" status.

So... what do you care about?
Good music or good culture is 100% subjective. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Also, every generation had their lame unoriginality, it's not exclusive to mine, or the one after me, or the one before me. People constantly insulted 80's music culture, yet it's had such a resurgence. Time is just a loop and nothing is original. Also I NEVER said my generation was the "greatest" generation, your assumption, not mine. You seem to be full of opinions, well you know what they say about opinions...
Old 14th March 2014
  #407
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666666's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post

...I mean, how many depressing conversations have you witnessed in your own studio? "It's not gonna matter, it all ends up as a ****ty mp3 anyway... etc...etc....."...

Pono is obviously a positive, artist-created and artistry-centered countermeasure to all that.

Discussions about the relative merits of sampling rates should come as a distant second to that.

- c
Right on!!! In full agreement.

Someone is finally doing something about the horrible state of audio these days... it shocks me that so many sluts here are actually ragging on it. WTF?

Pono is an important step, even just for making people AWARE of how horrible the audio quality is that they listen to everyday.

As George Massenburg was saying a back in 2008 (METAlliance), we need to educate, get people to actually LISTEN... get the message out. People need good audio to listen to and compare too.

METAlliance (TM): Interview With George Massenburg

Many thanks to Neil young for getting Pono in motion because apparently a guy of his clout / status is needed to get something like this actually moving. And he's doing it in a way that should indeed appeal to the masses... a "better" pocket player that will make you "feel" better. It's a good angle.

I just heard about this whole Pono thing tonight for the first time, I'm beyond overjoyed. FINALLY!!!!!! Like Silver Sonya said, it's not so much about the logistics and details of the Pono player itself, but about the "countermeasure" against **** audio. This will raise awareness. At the very least hopefully it will be a big spark that begins a revolution... a revolution that can't come soon enough.

And, sorry to be rude, but if you're truly happy listening to mp3s and feel that high-resolution digital is unnecessary, why in the HELL are you even here on gearslutz??? I mean, COME ON. You gotta be f*cking kidding me.

I fully support Neil Young and Pono! Thanks, Neil!!!!!!! More power to you, brother!!!

Old 14th March 2014
  #408
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The compact camera market is getting destroyed, primarily because people already have good enough cameras in their phones (which also do other things like editing and facilitating sharing).

When that same phone is also used currently around the world to listen to music (files or streamed), on the go, and used in noisy situations (and usually with crappy earbuds), do people really think there's a likelihood a large enough chunk of the populace is going to pony up $400 for another (rather bulky) device to carry in those same noisy situations when they've already shown that they're willing to forgo (also bulky) CD players for the convenience of what they feel is good enough sound? Pono might offer better sound in quiet environments to those with good headphones, but when the typical person uses earbuds (and thinks Beats makes quality cans) I really doubt the success of this device beyond a very small niche.

As for excitement about the Pono getting double the seed money it asked for, don't forget that the $99 Ouya got $8.5 million in Kickstarter seed-money and has fallen on its face and is pivoting into a software platform.

Besides, if Pono were to begin to get traction, which I doubt, Apple need only to produce all new iOS devices with Apple Lossless compatibility, then made it cheap to upgrade already-made purchases to AL (the way they let people upgrade from DRMed songs to unDRMed ones for free with a 1-yr subscription to iTunes Match).

If Pono goes public as a company, don't buy stock.
Old 14th March 2014
  #409
Gear Addict
 

So I am looking forward to new clients calling and in addition to insisting on Protools, now we will need to be tracking at at least 24/192 or we won't be a "real" studio. The people with no clue are not a concern, but every hobbiest musician and small time producers, record labels, promoters, etc.. Etc... Will more than ever be blessed with even more 'dangerous' information.
I had a mind boggling conversation with a clients mother that started with her saying.."I am taking Logic lessons at the Mac Store and the instructor said that you should do xxxxxx...!"
Old 14th March 2014
  #410
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popmann's Avatar
Quote:
All the people lining up for this box: did you buy a DVD-A or an SACD player when they came out? Have an account at HD Tracks? Do you walk the walk?
Yes, yes, yes....and I have no interest in this box. Though, I technically waited until they made combo players. Related note from that era--it was Neil's label that CAUSED the format war that ended that push to replace the CD...because they insisted on 24/192 (dvd-Audio) over DSD(SACD)...while Neil claimed how lousy digital recording was. circa what 99? 2000? And Meridian did the watermarking for DVDA...and were part of Pono for a while. All coincidence? Probably not.

I've bought many of the masters done for this push...and it's a truly mixed bag, but the overwhelming omission, IMO, is anything north of 1985. They farmed them out to lots of mastering folks...some did truly LOVELY masters of old tape recordings. Which ALSO sound lovely in their Redbook layer.

I find the omission so Boomer narcissistic...because masters from say 97+ NEED remastering. Regardless of format.
Old 14th March 2014
  #411
Gear Addict
 

So I am looking forward to new clients calling and in addition to insisting on Protools, now we will need to be tracking at at least 24/192 or we won't be a "real" studio. The people with no clue are not a concern, but every hobbiest musician and small time producers, record labels, promoters, etc.. Etc... Will more than ever be blessed with even more 'dangerous' information.
I had a mind boggling conversation with a clients mother that started with her saying.."I am taking Logic lessons at the Mac Store and the instructor said that you should do xxxxxx...!"
Old 14th March 2014
  #412
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tekis's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by earshotaudio View Post
YES. I record at 192K unless the artist I'm working with insists on a lower sample rate. It's his (her) music. It's his (her) call.
Al Schmitt mixes to 192/24. He might have a clue, no?
Old 14th March 2014
  #413
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Here's what I would have written...

Dear People who care about music fidelity,

We are a group of ‘senior’ music artists, engineers and producers who have been fortunate enough to make a pretty decent living through writing, recording and playing music.

None of this would have been possible without your direct financial support and for this we sincerely thank you.

In view of your ongoing investment in us and sponsorship of our artistic work over the years, something we have always tried to honour and respect, one aspect of our partnership that has consistently bothered us, especially recently, is the unwillingness of our greedy and blinkered record companies - who have ripped us off as much as they have you - to allow you to hear our music at the same sort of quality that we recorded it at in the studio. As professionals we work hard in the studio to achieve high artistic and technological standards and we feel these have always been compromised by men in suits with no grasp of artistic intent or recording fidelity.

So we’ve decided it’s time to take matters into our own hands and give something back to you - or more accurately, give you what you originally paid for when you purchased our albums.

We’ve teamed up with the Gearslutz community to start releasing all our old multi-tracks and master tapes to interested members of the Forum, with the objective of inviting them to create a whole bank of available masters for you to listen to at any quality or resolution you choose.

We have created a website for you to upload your work - as artists we will listen to all of them and then endorse the version that we feel best represents the sound of our original recording. Your master will then be available from our site as the official version of our album until such time as someone else creates a version that to our ears is an improvement. If people send in an original CD, cassette or vinyl version of the album they won't have to pay for the download because they've already purchased the music (and our thanks for that), but otherwise there will be a modest fee for first-time buyers. Just to reiterate, it matters not one whit to us what format you deliver your work in - WAV, FLAC, MP3, 1000khz/64-bit - all that matters to us is that if it sounds good to our ears it will become the definitive, officially-endorsed album version of our work.

(Of course, how others choose to listen to music is something over which we have never had control and have no wish to have now - the main point is that everyone will have a totally free choice, instead of being restricted to one proprietary format or piece of equipment.)

As a bare minimum recompense, you will receive a phone call from the original artist saying thank you, but we have already pooled our substantial means to create an endowment fund and each month money will be released to reward restoration/remastering work from the Gearslut community that we feel is honourable and deserving.

Best regards, and thank you again for helping us fight back against the men in suits,

Neil, Marc, David, John, David, Gillian, Logan, Mike, Lukas, Norah, Eddie, Stephen, Rick, Duane, Todd, Tom, Sting, Jack, Jeremy, Wil, Win, Flea, James, Dave, Elvis, Taylor, Mike, Chris, Elton, Bruce, Jackson, Emylou, Dave, Sarah, Jim, Bo, Charlie, Jim, Jack, Patti, Rob, Anthony, Bruce, T-Bone, Don, Kid, Reggie, Marcus, Ted, Ben, Beck, Joey, Falkner, Justin, Mo, etc


PS Don’t worry about copyright issues - we’ve lawyered up and stand ready to fight the record companies in the courts with protracted legal battles lasting decades until we regain control of our material, it goes out of copyright, or they go bust, whichever comes sooner. All funds collected from the 'first-time-buyer' downloads will be channeled into this.
Old 14th March 2014
  #414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
If you really think about it, it makes a lot of sense even if it doesn't sound any better.

Why not print at the highest resolution possible to protect yourself for the future?

The cost is minimal and there's a huge upside.
But but but but... IT'S SNAKE OIL!



Old 14th March 2014
  #415
Gear Head
 

Is it not proved in double blindtests that humans can not hear more information in SACD than in CD format.
I am thinking of the tests published at AES, -Audibility of a CD-Standard A/DA/A Loop Inserted into High-Resolution Audio Playback-,
where audioengineers and audioengineer students several times over a period of a year or more was tested, and the result was 50/50. They could not hear a difference.
Old 14th March 2014
  #416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H.E. View Post
Is it not proved in double blindtests that humans can not hear more information in SACD than in CD format.
I am thinking of the tests published at AES, -Audibility of a CD-Standard A/DA/A Loop Inserted into High-Resolution Audio Playback-,
where audioengineers and audioengineer students several times over a period of a year or more was tested, and the result was 50/50. They could not hear a difference.
That Boston Audio Society one is also interesting for its final section, which looks at why the commercial SACDs often sounded subjectively better to the participants –*they were simply mastered differently to the CD versions.
Old 14th March 2014
  #417
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
If you really think about it, it makes a lot of sense even if it doesn't sound any better.

Why not print at the highest resolution possible to protect yourself for the future?

The cost is minimal and there's a huge upside.
I'm not sure what sort of rhetorical twists are going on here, but your very last last post previous to that was about from Dan Lavry, who, of course feels that that extending frequency bandwidth far, far above the highest measured human perception at the risk of decreased sampling accuracy is a potential result is an unproductive and potential deleterious approach.

Why not, as he has often suggested, use an SR like 96 that has loads of frequency bandwidth headroom but that gives ample time for accurate dynamic measure?


You know, unless you're worried about how those trendsetters with the bat-hearing implants are going to like your mixes. Seriously. Let's have some common sense here.


I haven't followed the course of this thread but last time I was here, I saw you holding down a fairly rationale point of view. Maybe the sonic fantasy folks have finally gotten to you?
Old 14th March 2014
  #418
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
If you really think about it, it makes a lot of sense even if it doesn't sound any better.

Why not print at the highest resolution possible to protect yourself for the future?

The cost is minimal and there's a huge upside.
Now the question comes to me....should we master video to include Infrared and Ultraviolet because it is a higher resulution? It's not like dumping water into a big tub....calculations and processes need to happen and if we hamper those in any way is that wise?
Old 14th March 2014
  #419
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cinealta's Avatar
 

Forget going from 44.1 to 192 sampling rate. The main benefit of higher sample rates (> approx 45k) is not to enhance the fidelity of what's being recorded but to stop the artefactual degradation from digital filtering (to send aliasing etc higher out of audible range). 64 kHz is all you really need to accomplish that. Anything above that is marketing hype.

The real difference that the brain detects is the increased dynamic range from 16-bit to 24-bit.
Old 14th March 2014
  #420
Quote:
Originally Posted by blindjoni View Post
So I am looking forward to new clients calling and in addition to insisting on Protools, now we will need to be tracking at at least 24/192 or we won't be a "real" studio. The people with no clue are not a concern, but every hobbiest musician and small time producers, record labels, promoters, etc.. Etc... Will more than ever be blessed with even more 'dangerous' information.
I had a mind boggling conversation with a clients mother that started with her saying.."I am taking Logic lessons at the Mac Store and the instructor said that you should do xxxxxx...!"
This is a very real concern.

We're worried about musicians -- who are mostly not technical people.

Look at how very many people HERE who call themselves recording 'engineers' have virtually no clue how things work yet have deep set convictions for which they will argue endlessly, even without the benefit of any supporting knowledge.
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