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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 28th April 2014
  #4141
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Put it back in your pants my friend. Yours is bigger.
Not at all. But actual experience is the benchmark in this discussion apparently.
I'm just relating the role of artists in audio decision making I've actually witnessed over 30 years. Not what I've read about, or something a friend of a friend told me.
Have you watched 'rock stars' making decisions in the studio regularly over 30 years, or is it just your gut feeling that they might not know a good sounding mix when they hear it.
To me it seems like your 'expectation bias' has kicked in, because your history on Gearslutz is that of someone who dislikes 'Rock Stars' - Mick jagger, Bono, The Doors. You just said 'classic rock' on the radio insulted your intelligence.
To me it's just....classic rock on the radio.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Do Scorcese and Spielberg know good cinematography when they see it? Neither are camera men or cinematographers.
An analogy would be an actor to cinematographer... more close of an analogy to musician - audio engineer.

Again... why make assumptions?

It's funny how you seem to even forget the tangent you were on. But I won't waste the time taking you through it and showing you, again, how you are missing the point.

Quote:
Talking of assumptions, I just don't think it's right to assume everything about Pono is wrong. It might overall be a bad idea, but very rarely 100% of a project that excites a large and diverse group of supporters is completely wrong.
Who said everything about Pono is wrong??
Old 28th April 2014
  #4143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Not at all. But actual experience is the benchmark in this discussion apparently.
Do you have any actual experience with any of the musicians in the video as recording engineers, or first hand experience with them demonstrating their audio expertise? If so, share it. I would be more apt to respect their audio opinion. Otherwise... no assumption. Sorry.

Quote:
I'm just relating the role of artists in audio decision making I've actually witnessed over 30 years.
Hey you can make any assumptions you want to make.

Quote:
To me it seems like your 'expectation bias' has kicked in, because your history on Gearslutz is that of someone who dislikes 'Rock Stars'
Chrisso, please. You really are completely illogical, full of very strange sidebars that are irrelevant, and sometimes seemingly incapable of following a discussion, preferring to go on strange flights of fancy. As JJ said, you really seem to be trying to get into an argument for no apparent reason.

Back on topic. If any of the artists in the video have any experience mastering or engineering recordings, I would love to hear about it, especially if somehow over your awesome 30 years, you have worked with them directly.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4144
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
If any of the artists in the video have any experience mastering or engineering recordings, I would love to hear about it, especially if somehow over your awesome 30 years, you have worked with them directly.
Firstly the fact you write things like 'awesome 30 years' tells me your bias keeps coming to the surface and you aren't that interested in actual debate, but anyway….
I'm making a couple of very simple, and i think reasonable points that are relevant to the debate over the last few pages.
None of the artists in the video are claiming to be mastering engineers.
Logically speaking that doesn't mean none of them know a great sounding mix or recording when they hear one. It's this bandwagon of Pono sceptics that wanna say "yeah, what do they know".... rather than accept quite a few respectable artists have said nice things about Pono. The reasonable thing (imo) is to be sceptical, but wonder why, not just state the artists don't know because they aren't mastering engineers.
Secondly, it seems to me the Pono sceptics will not countenance the possibility that something could be good about the project. even if it's the remastering, or some analog circuit in the player.
It's just unrealistic and unreasonable to decide the 192khz claim is bogus, therefore everything about it, and everyone involved, is bogus.
In the end, it's just the same as the people who think everything is good about Pono.
Like I said, Scorcese is neither a cinematographer or film editor, and yet no one questions his ability to appreciate great cinematography and editing when he sees it. He hires some of the best in the business. If Bruce Springsteen hires the best mastering engineer in the business, is that because he can't recognise a well mastered record when he hears it?
You say it's an assumption, I say it pretty reasonable, and your assumptions are negative assumptions, either based on scepticism about Pono, or a dislike for 'rock stars' or both.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
None of the artists in the video are claiming to be mastering engineers.
Right. We agree.

Quote:
Logically speaking that doesn't mean none of them know a great sounding mix or recording when they hear one.
... nor does it mean the converse is true. No assumptions, remember?

Quote:
It's this bandwagon of Pono sceptics that wanna say "yeah, what do they know".... rather than accept quite a few respectable artists have said nice things about Pono.
Seems to me it's one of the following:

- There really is a difference in audio quality
- There are different masters and that accounts for the difference
- They are friends of Neil and they want to be nice
- They are experiencing expectation bias

Take your pick. I suggest it's most likely #4, but I don't really know. Based on the videos and the hype about sample rate and "underwater," I think #4 seems likely. But it's just a guess.

Quote:
The reasonable thing (imo) is to be sceptical, but wonder why, not just state the artists don't know because they aren't mastering engineers.
This whole thread has run the gamut. I don't think anybody is jumping to conclusions but you Chrisso. You're the only one here trying to assume these people have good hearing and can pick out subtle differences... i.e., YOU are jumping to conclusions.

Quote:
Secondly, it seems to me the Pono sceptics will not countenance the possibility that something could be good about the project.
Again, jumping to conclusions. Let me know WHAT exactly could be good about the project. Like.. great hardware? A great buying system? Better artist compensation? Any of them are possible, but we're still just guessing. Nowhere in the documentation does it indicate any of this is true (though it talks about a high quality audio player so maybe).

I don't see a whole lot of all-or-nothing thinking except for the pro pono crowd.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
It's this bandwagon of Pono sceptics that wanna say "yeah, what do they know".... rather than accept quite a few respectable artists have said nice things about Pono. The reasonable thing (imo) is to be sceptical, but wonder why, not just state the artists don't know because they aren't mastering engineers.
Chris it's the generalities you keep in making that keep on getting you back into the fight. Lumping all the people who voicing issues with Pono into a bandwagon is as bad as what you claim at the end of your post.

Fact is quite a few of use have said we are interested to find out on numerous occasions. You seem to have missed those points and focused on the fact that we also use science to disprove the current state of affairs. I can't really blame JJ for his position on it. You arguing with him on it is like me trying to prove my father wrong on TTL, large scale integration , Semiconductor Physics. It won't happen . He is an expert in his field. JJ is responsible for a lot the stuff you are actually trying to argue with him. Again an expert in his field who could go toe to toe with the Ayre guys and quite possibly show them a thing or two. You are an experienced audio engineer and that is to be respected. I doubt you have the level of expertise to prove JJ wrong in fact I doubt anyone on the Pono team could.

Some of us have accepted that and tried to learn from him. Even Chris from Air Windows has, even though he supports Pono. Myself I am skeptical yet want to hear it in tests and see it tested.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Secondly, it seems to me the Pono sceptics will not countenance the possibility that something could be good about the project. even if it's the remastering, or some analog circuit in the player.
It's just unrealistic and unreasonable to decide the 192khz claim is bogus, therefore everything about it, and everyone involved, is bogus.
In the end, it's just the same as the people who think everything is good about Pono.
Chris the problem here is science and listening test plus renowned converter makers and many AES presentations and papers show us that 192k is unneeded. Why is that so hard for you to accept as a sound engineer?
The problem most have and man how many times do I have too repeat this in this thread? It's the marketing! If they did not resort to such BS marketing this thread would not exist.
No one is saying the people are bogus. Again you use the generalities that get you into trouble. We are saying we feel their claims seem ludicrous. There is a difference in saying a person is bogus vs what they say is bogus as well.
Your last sentence I quoted brings you full circle to the very first part I quoted you on.


Round and round we go where it stops nobody knows. Actually it could stop and quickly outside of moderation. How you ask? If the Pono people would come clean take down the BS marketing and show some factual evidence for the claim of it sounding better.


That is the whole problem in a nut shell and I have pointed it out before.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4147
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
I don't think anybody is jumping to conclusions but you Chrisso. You're the only one here trying to assume these people have good hearing and can pick out subtle differences... i.e., YOU are jumping to conclusions.
.
Nooooo.

This:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Topgear View Post
But you have to keep in mind that these people are not scientists, not even sound engineers.

You may watch the video and go "Man , why is Springsteen making a fool of himself this way, talking about the warm sound of the added bit rate of Pono after coming out of the Pono car". But keep in mind that he is a lyricist, and someone who knows how to move people with his voice and his attitude. I don't see how these funny comments in the video could change the perception of what the artist have accomplished within their actual field of expertise, which is a whole different ball game.
All I'm saying is that 'their field of expertise' encompasses the entire process of making and releasing a record.
It's their name on the cover. They have the final say so on the mix, the master, etc, etc…
I'm not coming to any conclusions. I'm just saying you can't conclude a crowd of about twenty artists who have had long and successful careers recording and releasing albums don't know what they're talking about…. because they chiefly move people with their lyrics, or their guitar playing.
Elvis Costello has been making albums with the best in the business for over forty years. You saying you don't pick up any knowledge about sonics in all that time? That's an unreasonable assumption IMO.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpro View Post
... You are an experienced audio engineer ...
Doesn't anyone do their homework any more?

Chris Whitten - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Old 28th April 2014
  #4149
mixmixmix
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There is no way Elvis Costello would come out of this Pono car and say " Sorry, can't hear the difference". Ability to say "Yes" even when you know it's really "No" is paramount in order to have serious career in any industry. He is not going to dissapoint Neil Young, his recording label, appear to be black sheep , truoble maker whatever. How much easier to say'pono is awesome!" and move on to the next gig?

So of course nobody is taking those testimonials seriously. "Lose 10 kilos in 10 days!" - How about let me lose this annoying TV infomercial?

Pono is a great as a concept and an attrmpt for something new ,better. But as others said - It's about BS marketing, which is an insult to a professional audio industry and blatant lies to a general public.

As they say 'the only bad publicity is an obituary"

Pono publicity is very sleazy. They themselves don't believe the word they say. it is another money making project for this guys. they will say anything to make a buck.

Shame on you, Pono mafia.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpro View Post
Chris it's the generalities you keep in making that keep on getting you back into the fight. Lumping all the people who voicing issues with Pono into a bandwagon is as bad as what you claim at the end of your post.
Someone claimed Springsteen was a lyricist and argued he wouldn't know good audio. then a couple of the persistent critics of Pono joined in to agree. I'm not against those people, I happen to agree with about 99% of what 'joeq' has written in the thread. I just think there is a point where reasonable assumptions end and cynical negativity starts.
I didn't name everyone who has said anything bad about Pono in my 'bandwagon'. As someone said earlier, this is not a court of law, it's a conversational forum. Two or three people jumped on the comment insinuating Springsteen wasn't as qualified as a recording engineer - and I disagreed.

Quote:
Chris the problem here is science and listening test plus renowned converter makers and many AES presentations and papers show us that 192k is unneeded. Why is that so hard for you to accept as a sound engineer?
The problem most have and man how many times do I have too repeat this I this thread is the marketing! If they did not resort to such BS marketing this thread would not exist.
No one is saying the people are bogus. Again you use the generalities that get you into trouble. We are saying we feel their claims seem ludicrous. There is a difference in saying a person is bogus vs what they say is bogus as well.
Your last sentence I quoted brings you full circle to the very first part I quoted you on.

What's the difference between bogus and ludicrous? They are both negative descriptions of the person or their opinion.
I'm not arguing about the science around 192khz. I'm asking an extremely reasonable question which is - why are respected, successful and extremely experienced musicians happy to endorse this thing?
A couple of anonymous posters stating it's because they don't know good sound because they are mostly songwriters, or drummers, or guitarists just does not cut it in my opinion. It's a weak and lazy excuse.
My opinion is based on 30 years sitting in rooms watching and listening to songwriters, drummers and guitarists. The majority of whom (not all) are very serious about sound, interested in learning from experience, and have often recorded their own music or produced records for themselves and others.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
Doesn't anyone do their homework any more?

Chris Whitten - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Excuse me but he has made statements alluding to engineering besides his drumming. Funny you pop in to post that and nothing else. You really don't have anything constructive to say here do you? I did not think so. Try harder next time.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4152
Quote:
Originally Posted by mixmixmix View Post
There is no way Elvis Costello would come out of this Pono car and say " Sorry, can't hear the difference". Ability to say "Yes" even when you know it's really "No" is paramount in order to have serious career in any industry.
BS.
Once you've been in the industry a couple of months you learn to cover your arse by checking things up front.
Costello is a very serious soul. he would have checked out Pono before the video. Or if he didn't and found Pono to be bogus he would have come out of the car glowing and saying "yes", then had his manager call the Pono people later and say he no longer wanted to be in the video. People have to specifically agree to be in a promo video, and agree terms.
It really is music industry 101.

I did some videos for Roland recently. I was playing their v-drums. I don't endorse their v-drums. So I agreed with Roland before hand that we wouldn't be mentioning the v-drums specifically in the video. The video was a generic one about drumming.
Not that I hate their v-drums, but I'm not an endorser, and after a few years in the industry I know how to do interviews without endorsing something I don't actually endorse.
And you think no one in the video understands that?
Old 28th April 2014
  #4153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I'm just saying you can't conclude a crowd of about twenty artists who have had long and successful careers recording and releasing albums don't know what they're talking about…. because they chiefly move people with their lyrics, or their guitar playing.
Elvis Costello has been making albums with the best in the business for over forty years. You saying you don't pick up any knowledge about sonics in all that time? That's an unreasonable assumption IMO.
I will grant you that they SHOULD care about sound quality. I will also suggest that there have been some very bad sounding records released. I also am pretty sure not all artists get to approve the masters, or even get to hear them.

So.. no assumptions. That's all.

I'm guessing, since you haven't mentioned working with any of the artists in the video you don't have first hand experience?
Old 28th April 2014
  #4154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpro View Post
The problem most have and man how many times do I have too repeat this in this thread? It's the marketing! If they did not resort to such BS marketing this thread would not exist.
No one is saying the people are bogus.
It's obvious to everyone in this thread that the whole "underwater" thing is despicable marketing. We are also quite suggestible in situations like the one in the video, plus add on confirmation bias and just being nice to professional friends who have a lot invested in their project AND a great stereo system and you have a lot of potential answers to this.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4155
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpro View Post
Excuse me but he has made statements alluding to engineering besides his drumming.
Yeah, because when I'm drumming I don't arrive in a padded flightcase and get woken up when it's time to do the drum part, and wheeled out one hour later, drum part recorded.
This is the norm for most studio musicians these days:


Old 28th April 2014
  #4156
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
I'm guessing, since you haven't mentioned working with any of the artists in the video you don't have first hand experience?
You actually know who I've worked with. So no need for any specifics in that department. But if you must, yeah, I've worked with a couple of the artists in the video.
Seems strange you pull out the 'awesome' and 'mines bigger than yours' comments, but then keep asking me to talk about the 'rock stars' I've worked with.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4157
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
We are also quite suggestible in situations like the one in the video, plus add on confirmation bias and just being nice to professional friends who have a lot invested in their project AND a great stereo system and you have a lot of potential answers to this.
Well those are all assumptions that neatly back your position on Pono.
I've had a lot of professional friends who did projects that sucked. I just stayed away, and didn't comment.
It's music industry 101. Especially when the money doesn't mean much to you any more. Why would you agree to endorse something you weren't sure about, or agree to be in the video if you thought the product was bogus?

I'm not saying you are wrong and the Pono team are right. I'm just pointing out it's too obvious and somewhat lazy just to say "they did it for friend" or " they happened to walk into a video and had to say something positive".
That doesn't explain it.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4158
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
I will grant you that they SHOULD care about sound quality. I will also suggest that there have been some very bad sounding records released. I also am pretty sure not all artists get to approve the masters, or even get to hear them.
I'm pretty sure everyone in the video would approve their masters.
Your 'bad sounding record' is someone else's sonic masterpiece of course.
Like I said, sometimes 'bad sound' is bad for another reason, not because the artist has no clue, or doesn't care. It's because they want to do a garage rock album, or they want to record their songs in one take, on one mic.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post




What's the difference between bogus and ludicrous? They are both negative descriptions of the person or their opinion.
I'm not arguing about the science around 192khz. I'm asking an extremely reasonable question which is - why are respected, successful and extremely experienced musicians happy to endorse this thing.
A couple of anonymous posters stating it's because they don't know good sound because they are mostly songwriters, or drummers, or guitarists just does not cut it in my opinion. It's a weak and lazy excuse.
My opinion is based on 30 years sitting in rooms watching and listening to songwriters, drummers and guitarists. The majority of whom (not all) are very serious about sound, interested in learning from experience, and have often recorded their own music or produced records for themselves and others.
Chris I explained it a post ago but you just sailed right over it. A person can make a statement about something it does not mean it's who they are. The way you try to defend these guys. You would condemn everyone for every thing they ever said. People say things it does not mean they are those things.

By your own reasoning I could equally say that the 192k claim is a weak and lazy excuse for them not telling us the real deal.

Part of the problems with the comments can also be attributed to I believe the statement Flea made from the Red Hot Chili Peppers. The bass sounds like rubber bands on anything besides Pono. Yes I paraphrased it but I think you can agree its a somewhat far fetched comment. If he had said wow Pono sounds great there would be no problem. The problem lies in over descriptive terms that exaggerate.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4160
mixmixmix
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Chrisso - you understimate Elvis Costello. He is "serious soul" AND a great actor. He can act "genuine" like a method actor. The same for many guys in that video. They simply don't care. Pono is a safe thing to endorse, because it is legitimate gadget, not a sweatshop in Cambodia. Stay in the news and keep your records selling. They know that rather well. ALL OF THOSE GUYS IN THE VIDEO NEED PONO TO BE SUCCESFUL to sell their catalogs once again. THIS is music industry 101. There are giddy not because of Pono sound quality, but because of the promise of more cash for nothing. In old times to make more money Neil Young would have to write a new song. This days he really streamlined his writing process - he wrote one word - "Pono", and is happily cashing in. And the rest of em are joining in. Elvis Costello is there becuase it's smells of money, that is the main reason for all of those "serious souls" to appear in this hi-rez Toblerone infomercial.


Pono's marketing is no different to audiofile shops peddling $10.000 power cords. Of course, there is audible difference they say. Some people will believe this.


IF there is no difference beetween Pono and CD sound, but Pono is endorsed by huge music stars it leads millions people to believe they are buying something real. And it is not fair to people.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Well those are all assumptions that neatly back your position on Pono.
I don't have an opinion on Pono.

I have no assumptions either Chrisso. I have theories and I have guesses. I am making no claims of knowledge.

Quote:
I'm not saying you are wrong and the Pono team are right. I'm just pointing out it's too obvious and somewhat lazy just to say "they did it for friend" or " they happened to walk into a video and had to say something positive".
That doesn't explain it.
The point is there are a WIDE variety of reasons why someone might get taken by snake oil products. You can guess for yourself what the real answer is. None of us know. I do know that all of what I suggested as possible reasons are all real potential reasons.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpro View Post
Chris I explained it a post ago but you just sailed right over it. A person can make a statement about something it does not mean it's who they are. The way you try to defend these guys.
I'm less defending them, more questioning why, while at the same time calling for reasonable theories, not just that audio quality is not their 'area of expertise'.

Quote:
By your own reasoning I could equally say that the 192k claim is a weak and lazy excuse for them not telling us the real deal.
.
Not really. people have posted scientific papers to back their argument. Someone who made a career out of being an expert in audio has posted numerous times. The arguments against 192khz are in a different league to people speculating about artists 'being in a mafia' or not really knowing much about good quality sound. That's just negative speculation in my opinion.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4163
Case in point….


Quote:
Originally Posted by mixmixmix View Post
Chrisso - you understimate Elvis Costello. He is "serious soul" AND a great actor. He can act "genuine" like a method actor. The same for many guys in that video. They simply don't care. Pono is a safe thing to endorse, because it is legitimate gadget, not a sweatshop in Cambodia.

It's just character assassination as J_J puts it. Guesswork based on what? It seems based on negative, cynical thoughts you have for successful musicians.

Quote:
Marc Ford, David Crosby, John Platt, David Rawlings, Gillian Welch, Logan Metz,Mike Nelson, Lukas Nelson, Norah Jones, Eddie Vedder, Stephen Stills, Rick Rubin, Duane Eddy, Todd Moscowitz, Tom Petty, Sting, Jack White, Jeremy Gara, Wil Butler, Win Butler, Flea, James Taylor, Dave Grohl, Elvis Costello, Taylor Hawkins, Mike D, Chris Robinson, Elton John, Bruce Springsteen, Jackson Browne, Emylou Harris, Dave Matthews, Sarah McLachlan, Jim James, Bo Koster, Charlie Musselwhite, Jim Keltner, Jack Johnson, Patti Smith, Rob Cavallo, Anthony Kiedis, Bruce Botnick, T-Bone Burnett, Don Was, Kid Rock, Reggie Watts, Marcus Mumford, Ted Dwayne, Ben Lovett, Neil Young [of course], Beck, Joey Waronker, Jason Falkner, Justin Meldal-Johnsen, Mo Ostin.
Every one of them is lying in the hope of lining their pockets?
Old 28th April 2014
  #4164
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post

The point is there are a WIDE variety of reasons why someone might get taken by snake oil products.
But hold on…. you are assuming they've been 'taken' by a 'snake oil product'.
based on what evidence?
We have to take higher, scientific advice on the 192khz claim, but that doesn't rule out the remasters are a revelation, or there is something in the sonics of the player that wows people.
I mean no one here has heard it (except one sporadic contributor), you say you have no opinion on Pono, but effectively describe it as 'snake oil' a line later when I ask why so many varied artists have endorsed Pono. That's a confusing contradiction. You are making no assumptions and have no opinion on Pono, but there are many reasons why the artists in the Pono video 'might get taken by snake oil products'.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I'm less defending them, more questioning why, while at the same time calling for reasonable theories, not just that audio quality is not their 'area of expertise'.



Not really. people have posted scientific papers to back their argument. Someone who made a career out of being an expert in audio has posted numerous times. The arguments against 192khz are in a different league to people speculating about artists 'being in a mafia' or not really knowing much about good quality sound. That's just negative speculation in my opinion.
Chris you are trying to mix statements here. I was singling out what you said with an analogy towards it. You seemed to have missed the point. The point was based on your statement about weak and lazy and was directed at the Pono people making the 192k claim which could. E construed as weak and lazy on their part for not really telling us what is going on. The Pono people have not posted anything proving why they use 192k on the Pono site. This has been gone over.
The company behind Pono's converters have stuff posted on their website but it's all stuff JJ has shown to be susceptible and unneeded.
Also please realize and stop trying to treat me like a noob to this discussion . I have followed it from the beginning and I fact have participated for several days now.
I said nothing about a mafia and that does not pertain to your conversation with me. It is someone else's words not mine and I would prefer you do not try to confuse the discussion by adding it in.

Yet I do tire of the thread and I am pretty much done. I have had my say and wait for Pono to come out and actually prove itself to the world.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4166
I don't think the Pono people are weak and lazy for making claims about 192khz.
I'm not an audio expert so i can't say anything about the 192khz aspect. Someone with extremely strong credentials says it's nonsense, a few other regular Gearslutz I respect say it's nonsense, so I'm inclined to favour that view. If that were the case, it would be devious marketing, and nothing to do with making weak and lazy excuses.
All the stuff speculating why artists are endorsing Pono is the usual stuff you see on Gearslutz.
Artists are greedy, artists are naive, artists are only interested in lining their own pockets, artists will be intentionally devious if they can sell a few more copies of their last hit record.
I call that lazy and weak, because it's more about prejudice and cynicism than anything I can relate to. It's the hip, outsider thing to say. It doesn't make any intellectual point other than to lash out at successful people
I don't know why all those artists are endorsing Pono. Given their diversity - in age, background, music genre and financial circumstances - I'm tempted to assume at least a few of them genuinely liked what they heard.
Some may be doing Young a favour, some may be looking for a favour from Young, some may be thinking about their dwindling record sales. But every single one….? I don't know…. maybe.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I don't think the Pono people are weak and lazy for making claims about 192khz.
I'm not an audio expert so i can't say anything about the 192khz. Someone with extremely strong credentials says it's nonsense, a few other regular Gearslutz I respect say it's nonsense, so I'm inclined to favour that view.
All the stuff speculating why artists are endorsing Pono is the usual stuff you see on Gearslutz.
Artists are greedy, artists are naive, artists are only interested in lining their own pockets, artists will be intentionally devious if they can sell a few more copies of their last hit record.
That's what I call lazy and weak, because it's more about prejudice and cynicism than any real insight.
I don't know why all those artists are endorsing Pono. Given their diversity - in age, background, music genre and financial circumstances - I'm tempted to assume at least a few of them genuinely liked what they heard.
Some may be doing Young a favour, some maybe looking for a favour, some may be thinking about their dwindling record sales. But every single one….? I don't know…. maybe.
Again I did not make the weak and lazy statement because I think they are. I used it to point out the fact that you used perhaps was a poor choice for an explanation on your part. None the less most of your post above I do not disagree with. I almost think perhaps you skimmed some of my posts from a few days ago as you would have seen I was in the camp alongside JJ .

As for the artists I also pointed out the fact that not all artists were making ludicrous statements. Though like I pointed out at least one did if not a few.

Like I already said , the thread has run it's course and we won't really know anymore till an actual device is in people's hands and run through proper tests.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4168
mixmixmix
Guest
Not everybody is a liar , actor, opprrtunist etc. The point is that testimonials FROM the manufacturer cannot be trusted. Period.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4169
j_j
Lives for gear
I don't see any point in trying to crucify any particular 192kHz proponent. Many, many people do not accept the well-established understanding of human perception, cognitive steering, cross-sensory influence, and the like.

It's a hard lesson to learn. Don't turn them off, try to educate them. This does not mean that you should accept being called names, and it most certainly does not mean one should revisit the entire subject for someone who comes in late without reading the whole thread, but it does mean that questioning overt motivation (note the qualification overt, please) is NOT always appropriate.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4170
Quote:
Originally Posted by mixmixmix View Post
The point is that testimonials FROM the manufacturer cannot be trusted. Period.
That's a totally fair point.
The next question though is motivation.
Musicians I know who endorse - the motivation is to get free, cheap gear, and get involved with the company. The vast majority of the people I know endorse products they really like and would use anyway.
If Pono was a crock of hype, you just wouldn't get involved in endorsing it would you? What would Jim Keltner, Jack White and Sting all get out of endorsing something they have no financial stake in and wouldn't believe in if it didn't do what was claimed?
I guess the question doesn't need to be answered, and we just wait until Pono enters the market.
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