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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 27th April 2014
  #4111
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post

Q: How many engineers appear in that video?
Well it's verrrrrry simple. The video is to promote Pono. How many recording engineers have the public heard of? How many recording engineers are household names?
Not even Bob Clearmountain or Bruce Swedien I would say.
The point is, it's a long bow to suggest artists don't know a good sound when they hear it. I know you didn't specifically say so, but you were contradicting Karloff when he contradicted the person who claimed artists don't know a good sound.

In the end, as I've said, it's generally the artists who sign off on the particular sounds (drums, guitars, vocals etc) that make up a recording, and the artists who sign off on the final mix and mastering.
If they aren't happy it's the engineer that changes it for them.
It's really only debut artists or perhaps second album artists who get vetoed by producers and engineers.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4112
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
the people in the video said it was "the best sound they ever heard"! These people have heard 24/96 and even 24/192 before! IN THE STUDIO. On professional converters. On professional monitors. In a tuned, purpose-built control room.
Another reach.
Don't you think it's logical to assume they are talking in the context of a consumer delivery system?
Pono is the 'best sound they've ever heard' compared to an iPod, a CD, a vinyl LP, Spotify etc…
They may be wrong about the sound of Pono, but let's not grasp at straws to discredit something only one person in the thread has even heard.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4113
Quote:
Liam Casey's PCH set to build Neil Young's vision...Casey's PCH International, which makes products for Apple and Dr Dre's Beats Electronics, will manufacture Young's Pono Player...
Source: Liam Casey's PCH set to build Neil Young's vision - Independent.ie
Old 27th April 2014
  #4114
fixed for joeq:
Quote:
an engineer MUST be qualified or he shouldn't have the gig.



Let's face it, not everyone out there is entirely competent at their craft.

I mean, I was out there... heh
Old 27th April 2014
  #4115
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Of course, there is an exception to every rule.
To claim artists who have had a career of albums behind them don't know a good sound when they hear it is a massive reach however. It feels like those who want to knock Pono of it's perch will agree to any illogical thought, while arguing that those who support Pono are being illogical.
Does Eric Clapton know a good guitar sound, does Steve Gadd know a good drum sound, or do they both rely on audio experts to guide them?
Sorry, it's a nonsense.
These aren't exceptions in my experience. It runs the gamut. For you to assume seems a bit foolish to me.

Eric Clapton might know a good guitar sound, but that is a COMPLETELY different thing from knowing how to master, how to mix, or whether it's 192k or 44.1.

You really want to make assumptions. I don't.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4116
No qualification is more truthful.
An engineer gets hired by word of mouth.
Practically no one on any major album has a qualification. They all got there by reputation, largely built on years of getting certain results.
By the way, there are as many average to poor recording engineers as there are average to poor musicians.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4117
Lives for gear
Instead of cursing the darkness, why not light a candle?

How about a real download-dongle, excuse me, I mean audiophile file player?

First of all, none of this 1/8th inch jack crap. A real player is going to have the blessing of the Deutsches Institut für Normung. Big-ass DIN connector, old-style Tuchel, or XLR, or just **** off.

Waterproof. Because even if you don't go swimming with it, the sound is going to be so good that you'll have it in your pocket and piss yourself in ecstasy listening to it. So, waterproof.

Less candy shape, more cock shape.

We'll call it the BONOR.

64 bit/64kHz. DAWs operate at 64 bits, and they should be operating at 64kHz, so they can export directly to the BONOR format.

Manufacture will be a joint effort of the US and Russia. Like Apollo Soyuz, BONOR will be a sign of peace.

Target participents: independent record companies. Get Steve Albini on board. (But keep Thurston Moore off board.)

Let's send the message to Neil Young that BONOR man don't need him around.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4118
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
These aren't exceptions in my experience. It runs the gamut. For you to assume seems a bit foolish to me.

Eric Clapton might know a good guitar sound, but that is a COMPLETELY different thing from knowing how to master, how to mix, or whether it's 192k or 44.1.

You really want to make assumptions. I don't.
OK
Let's check our assumption barometer.
My comments are based on 30 years sitting in recording studios, listening and watching artists interact with recording engineers.
Your comments are based on 30 years? in corporate video, and a hobby making music largely at home.
In fact I'm not making 'assumptions', I'm making genuine observations based on actual experience.
My actual experience is that most artists with more than a couple of albums under their belt are very fussy about sound, are very aware of good and bad sound, and not very prone to getting over excited about an average sound.
My actual experience is that the artist is the one that signs off on the album mix and the mastering, and is not told what to think by the engineer (although in the best case scenario it can be a collaboration).
But please enlighten us on the occasions you personally experienced when the opposite was the case.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4119
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Dpro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Of course, there is an exception to every rule.
To claim artists who have had a career of albums behind them don't know a good sound when they hear it is a massive reach however. It feels like those who want to knock Pono of it's perch will agree to any illogical thought, while arguing that those who support Pono are being illogical.
Does Eric Clapton know a good guitar sound, does Steve Gadd know a good drum sound, or do they both rely on audio experts to guide them?
Sorry, it's a nonsense.
Chris you exaggerate here. I don't think anyone is saying artists even famous artist don't know good sound . Though many in that video are guilty of letting horrible sounding recordings get released. Be it because of brick wall limiters in the mastering stage or whatever. Why were they not crying foul then.

By even your argument the could have easily put there foot down and said no I heard it the studio and now it ****. The only person in that video who actually has been consistent in his denouncement of all digital audio sounding bad is Neil himself.
Based on that the rest really have no right to cry foul now after years of acceptance. Can we say hypocritical. Can you you say given that it sows the seeds of mistrust even more so.

I can also say it seems like all the people who are in favor of Pono are willing to use or agree to any illogical fact to support it . While accusing those are proving illogical facts don't work as being unreasonable.

See what I did there? I did it to show you that you are slipping into a persecution complex.

Pono does not have a pearch.At this point it's speculative to us. We don't have the evidence either way because we don't have Pono . We are arguing theoretically at this point . The catch is the science side does have a boat load of facts in its favor until proven otherwise. Something Pono has not done as of yet.

Pono is all hearsay at this point nothing more. Hence why some people react incredulously at statements made by the stars.

Stars are stars but it does not automatically launch them to perfect can do no wrong say no wrong god like status.

I live in an area full of stars interact with them observe them . They are not always the brightest. Quite often don't don't have the best taste in food.

The only reason I am pointing this out is because people can be hypocrites they are human. People are not always right they are human.
Stars are not automatically better though they are exceptional at their craft. They can have great ears and be terrible engineers or producers.
Why because they may not know when to stop , when it's good enough. They may kill it in the name of perfection.

I say this only to give better perspective to the star argument.
No one is saying thy can't tell but we are questioning (outside of Neil) why now. Why not before? You obviously must have known something was wrong before right? Why did you not speak up then?
There really is no excuse 192k audio has been around for over 10 years hi res delivery formats have been around for that long as well.

Which begs the question why is Pono supposedly so different? Or is it really? Or is it just another bill of goods? You can't deny the validity of these questions in this context.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpro View Post
Chris you exaggerate here. I don't think anyone is saying artists even famous artist don't know good sound . Though many in that video are guilty of letting horrible sounding recordings get released. Be it because of brick wall limiters in the mastering stage or whatever.
I will only say that there are many factors at work.
I remember once working with McCartney and he was just sick of the super star record producers and session musicians. He wanted to do some recordings like 'the old days', where we were all in the same room, a couple of mics on the kit, no rehearsal, no time for the recording engineer to fuss around. It was wham-bam-thank-you-mam. The end result sounded pretty awful from a sonic point of view. Of course he was more focussed on the performance, the vibe etc.. In the end the recordings were redone more conventionally.
With the brick wall limiting etc, I think it's more down to fear, not wanting to be out of step with what everyone else is doing, the perceived wisdom.
I've seen it so many times. many times on Gearslutz. If someone presents audio in A/B format for people to vote on, and one sample gets a much higher approval vote, it's often the case that sample is louder than the rejected sample. It can be as little as 0.5db. If it is even slightly louder, people will perceive it as better sounding.


Quote:
I can also say it seems like all the people who are in favor of Pono are willing to use or agree to any illogical fact to support it . While accusing those are proving illogical facts don't work as being unreasonable.

Sure, agreed.
I think I've only been stepping in when the side criticisng Pono have overstepped the boundaries of logicality and truth.
Sure, Pono might be snake oil, a crock of nonsense. We can guess, but without hearing it we don't know for sure.
Once people start blaming the music industry for Pono, or saying the artists in the video wouldn't know a good sound if they heard it, I call reach.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Another reach.
Don't you think it's logical to assume ...

... but let's not grasp at straws
He's taking what they said at face value, it's you that's distorting it.

Chris
Old 27th April 2014
  #4122
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
OK
Let's check our assumption barometer.
My comments are based on 30 years sitting in recording studios, listening and watching artists interact with recording engineers.
Your comments are based on 30 years? in corporate video, and a hobby making music largely at home.
In fact I'm not making 'assumptions', I'm making genuine observations based on actual experience.
My actual experience is that most artists with more than a couple of albums under their belt are very fussy about sound, are very aware of good and bad sound, and not very prone to getting over excited about an average sound.
My actual experience is that the artist is the one that signs off on the album mix and the mastering, and is not told what to think by the engineer (although in the best case scenario it can be a collaboration).
But please enlighten us on the occasions you personally experienced when the opposite was the case.
Put it back in your pants my friend. Yours is bigger.

No assumptions. That is all.

For the record your post is also filled with assumptions about me that are incorrect. At least you are consistent in your assumptioning. (LOL, I love to make up words).
Old 28th April 2014
  #4123
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpro View Post

Stars are stars but it does not automatically launch them to perfect can do no wrong say no wrong god like status.

I live in an area full of stars interact with them observe them . They are not always the brightest. Quite often don't don't have the best taste in food.

The only reason I am pointing this out is because people can be hypocrites they are human. People are not always right they are human.
Stars are not automatically better though they are exceptional at their craft. They can have great ears and be terrible engineers or producers.
Why because they may not know when to stop , when it's good enough. They may kill it in the name of perfection.
Right. No assumptions. Just because you are an awesome drummer doesn't mean you are a great piano player, businessman, audio engineer, or even a very nice human. In the video I see lots or rock stars. I make no assumptions that any of them know how to judge a good mix.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Another reach.
Don't you think it's logical to assume they are talking in the context of a consumer delivery system?
Pono is the 'best sound they've ever heard' compared to an iPod, a CD, a vinyl LP, Spotify etc…
They may be wrong about the sound of Pono, but let's not grasp at straws to discredit something only one person in the thread has even heard.
This, it's obvious to me as well that this is what they are talking about.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4125
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Another reach.
Don't you think it's logical to assume they are talking in the context of a consumer delivery system?
Actually, it was the absence of that very qualification that shocked me MOST about the video!

David Crosby started off qualifying his "best ever" as: "in a car". But then immediately amended his remarks to say it might be "some of the best sound I EVER heard"

Other artists said it was the "best DIGITAL sound I ever heard" and similar remarks. There were quite a few people who did not seem to be qualifying - flat out saying best thing ever. A few of the artists (including NY himself) were careful to acknowledge that Pono was intended to deliver 'what they heard in the studio' - but many people literally seemed to indicate that it was beyond what they heard in a studio - or else seemed to forget that they ever had been in a studio.

How about the band that talked about how the low end "went away" when they switched from 192 to CD? Really? So 192 "adds lows"? Or does the Pono add lows? Is there a smiley face EQ and some exciter circuits placed after the D/A?

Is that what they mean by "how the music was intended to be heard"?

Quote:
They may be wrong about the sound of Pono, but let's not grasp at straws to discredit something only one person in the thread has even heard.
if they are wrong, and you and I both seem to think they very well might be, then it is not "grasping at straws" to point out the extreme hyperbole of the testimonials. Flea said CDs sound "like a rubber band" by comparison. But when recording engineers here compare the same file at CD vs high resolutions blindfolded, they are struggling to tell them apart. At best! At worst, they can't even tell better than chance. Why the struggle?

It should be easy... just listen for which one "sounds like a rubber band"!

SOMEBODY is "wrong" here.

Maybe the engineers are all deaf and incompetent and the guitarists who stand in front of the Marshall stacks every night have better ears.

Maybe the musicians got a little carried away.

Maybe there is a "thumb on the scale" in the way the comparisons Pono is offering are done, or in its playback circuitry.

They can't all be right. I am not betting against the engineers.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
It's the fear that drives people to still do it.
Why do you think mix engineers and mastering engineers are smashing everything into a brick wall? For fun?
I agree, they're(*) driven by the FOMO. It's unfortunate that their fear is largely groundless. We can hope that the Pono initiative helps to bring a little sanity to the process.

(*) The people who make the "creative" decisions to smash it, not generally the mix and mastering folks, although they have the fear that if they don't do as asked they'll be out of work.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4127
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

It seems to me more and more people think the smashed sound is normal too. One of my collaborators on one of my projects is VERY into squashing everything, puts an L1 on everything and hits it hard. I can't stand the way it sounds, I need to hear the instruments sound like instruments.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4128
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laser's Avatar
 

Cheeesh, what a thread. My wife just asked me what I've been doing for the last hour and I told her I've been looking at 138 pages of Pono.

Before I could clarify, she's screeching her tires out of the driveway in her sports car. Looks like it's a TV dinner for me tonight.

Thanks all.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4129
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris93 View Post
He's taking what they said at face value, it's you that's distorting it.

Chris
How am I 'distorting it'?
Old 28th April 2014
  #4130
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post

(*) The people who make the "creative" decisions to smash it, not generally the mix and mastering folks, although they have the fear that if they don't do as asked they'll be out of work.
It's a mix of people with different agendas.
The very top mastering engineers could refuse to smash the master. The very top could publicise the nonsense of squished masters.
It's simplistic to say all mastering engineers fear for their jobs. It's simplistic to suggest it is artists who are asking for less dynamic albums.
If smashed records are the top sellers, and the record companies know that, it's very hard to step out of that cycle - for the artist, the mastering engineer, or the label.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4131
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post

They can't all be right. I am not betting against the engineers.
Sure.
1) The video is a promo. Is any promo ever completely honest, from the 'all new, better than ever' laundry liquid, to Tom Hanks being interviewed about his new movie?
2) The lack of engineers in the video is a furfy. It's almost certainly nothing to do with engineers being sceptical about the claims. It has everything to do with it being a promo video.
Do car designers and auto engine engineers advertise engine oil? No, it's the Nascar and F1 drivers.
In the end I find the involvement of certain artists in the video interesting.
I won't at this stage damn them, but I also won't 100% believe everything they say.
That's how most normal people approach advertising isn't it?
Old 28th April 2014
  #4132
Quote:
Originally Posted by laser View Post
Cheeesh, what a thread. My wife just asked me what I've been doing for the last hour and I told her I've been looking at 138 pages of Pono.

Before I could clarify, she's screeching her tires out of the driveway in her sports car. Looks like it's a TV dinner for me tonight.

Thanks all.
heh
Old 28th April 2014
  #4134
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
One of the few things worse than the Guardian's article is their reply to it. They both need to be taken out back and spanked, figuratively speaking.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4135
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post
One of the few things worse than the Guardian's article is their reply to it. They both need to be taken out back and spanked, figuratively speaking.
Because...
Old 28th April 2014
  #4136
j_j
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
Because...
Read the thread here rather than start an argument.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4137
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

So when does the dash mount Pono player for the car come out?
Old 28th April 2014
  #4138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post
Read the thread here rather than start an argument.
Awesome response there, Mr. Cranky.
Old 28th April 2014
  #4139
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Ephi82's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
No qualification is more truthful.
An engineer gets hired by word of mouth.
Practically no one on any major album has a qualification. They all got there by reputation, largely built on years of getting certain results.
By the way, there are as many average to poor recording engineers as there are average to poor musicians.
Can we prove this with abx testing methods?
Old 28th April 2014
  #4140
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
In the video I see lots or rock stars. I make no assumptions that any of them know how to judge a good mix.
Do Scorcese and Spielberg know good cinematography when they see it? Neither are camera men or cinematographers.
Funny, when Scorcese waxes on for hours about the superlative cinematography in European cinema no one scoffs that he might not know what he's talking about.
Artists with the track record of those in the video have years of making decisions based on sonic values, just like Scorcese and Spielberg have spent years judging images.
Talking of assumptions, I just don't think it's right to assume everything about Pono is wrong. It might overall be a bad idea, but very rarely 100% of a project that excites a large and diverse group of supporters is completely wrong.
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