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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 27th April 2014
  #4081
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
I think it's a different problem. I am so used to picking the music I like music radio is useless. Even if it sounded good I wouldn't listen.
Can't argue with that. That, then, would go back partially to nationwide autoplay lists and having no personnel in an actual station in part, which is also a problem. If you have live bodies in a station who get to pick their stuff, you can very quickly find who plays what you like, and who doesn't.

But when the same playlist goes from Portland to Portland, you don't get much choice.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4082
mixmixmix
Guest
Why even expect quality sound from such a commercial entity as radio? They are making money selling advertising slots not quality sound.

Pono on other hand is claiming to bring the best sound quality ever to the market. Big claim. Will they deliver? I think not. But they are really good at lying to general public - and that is alarming.

Neil Young will never be Steve Jobs, no matter how hard he will try.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixmixmix View Post
Neil Young will never be Steve Jobs, no matter how hard he will try.
Not sure who would want to be Steve Jobs at this point.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4084
Music radio is more of an all round entertainment than about the music alone.
The DJ's are celebrities in their own right. The space between the music is filled by DJ's talking about what they did over the weekend, who they met at a party the night before.
Then there is celebrity gossip, general news every half hour or hour, weather, interviews with artists.
If you just wanted to listen to your own music, you wouldn't listen to music radio for sure.

Feb 2014:
Quote:
Rajar's latest research reveals radio listening is at a 15-year high.

It says that 91% of the population aged over 15 listen to the radio each week, the highest level since records began in 1999.

"At a time when we've just become the first radio station in the world to reach one million subscribers on YouTube, we're delighted to be reaching 42% of all 15 to 24-year-olds," said Ben Cooper, controller of BBC Radio 1 and 1Xtra.

The BBC's principal networks - Radios 1, 2 and 4 - all saw their audiences rise in the last three months, with Radio 2 substantially ahead with 15.5 million listeners each week.
BBC News - Chris Evans enjoys record audience on BBC Radio 2

Regarding 'squishing' and the 'loudness wars' isn't it the consumer dictating what they want, not our industry.
When records appear to be louder, more punchy, people buy them.
When a dynamic record is played on the radio between two squished records, the dynamic record is less popular.
As was earlier said - follow the money. The music industry (and broadcasters for that matter) are only interested in what sells more, and gets better ratings.
If a few more naturally dynamic recordings were hits, or featured highly on the playlists of popular radio, then more artists, mastering engineers and record companies would jump on the dynamic bandwagon. Until then we appear to be stuck with it.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4085
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by mixmixmix View Post
Neil Young will never be Steve Jobs, no matter how hard he will try.
Well, Jobs is dead and Neil is a great songwriter so I think you're right about that. :p
Old 27th April 2014
  #4086
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
When records appear to be louder, more punchy, people buy them.
When a dynamic record is played on the radio between two squished records, the dynamic record is less popular.
Here's the problem with any audio effect. The one that's flash and obvious gets people's attention.

The one that sounds great is the one that holds their attention, once it HAS their attention.

The flashy one soon enough causes fatigue and they turn down, tune out, whatever.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4087
I agree completely.
I say the same thing about single song downloads.
Which is about getting someone to buy your music after one listen through the first minute of the song.
Instant appeal pays the artist, the thoughtful, slow burner less successfully so.
(in my opinion)
Old 27th April 2014
  #4088
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
It's no surprise that artists are more open to a 'gut feeling' or a 'hunch' than they are to statistics or scientific data. For decades people have been trying to apply absolutes to the creative process and it has never worked.
You can't programme into a super computer every factor of a Lennon & McCartney song and get it to spit out a song of it's own that moves people.
No one knows why Shawshank Redemption consistently rates as one of the top ten movies of all time, not even the people who made it.
I get that the science is the science, the data is the data. But I also see a few people in the thread saying they are open to judging how Pono sounds for themselves.
If you work a certain way and it feels good, your music gets great reviews, and your music is popular with an audience, it's hardly surprising you aren't that much interested in ABX testing. That's fine IMO. If anyone here wants to test themselves using ABX software, they are free to do so.
I guess what is wrong is to refuse to play the ABX game, but be convinced Pono and 192khz is the answer. But what I'm seeing here is a few people being open to Pono, and being beaten about the head and often personally ridiculed, just for being open to the idea.
Again, they could be entirely wrong. But the point is, most people who have survived in the industry for a number of years have learnt not to rely on statistics, or science. they make a million decisions a day based on a gut feeling and a hunch. That's how the creative mind works.
Such an excellent post.

- c
Old 27th April 2014
  #4089
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I agree completely.
I say the same thing about single song downloads.
Which is about getting someone to buy your music after one listen through the first minute of the song.
Instant appeal pays the artist, the thoughtful, slow burner less successfully so.
(in my opinion)
Well, it's not an opinion I can refute. I find the same is true. Then again, I've always found 'B' sides, etc, to be much more rewarding than often expected, and the "headline" often overdone to bits.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4090
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
I mean... does anyone actually listen to radio anymore? For music?
Not me, I'm afraid. Well, sometimes I listen to WAMU's bluegrass channel online.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4091
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
From the above page:

Quote:
"We are a nation of audiophiles and so, despite the ever-increasing competition for people's time and the growing range of online audio providers, radio is thriving in the digital age."


Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
...
When a dynamic record is played on the radio between two squished records, the dynamic record is less popular. ...
How can you tell?

Loudness means NOTHING on the radio - The Proof

Mastering for the Optimod (FM radio)

http://www.orban.com/support/orban/t..._Truth_1.3.pdf

If I ruled the world, I'd require every broadcaster's program directors to audition using the same processing chain that they used on air.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4092
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mellotronic View Post
Lastly, I don't get the Neil Young bashing. You think he's been chasing $$ his whole career? I don't. I admit I'm a fan. A lot of you probably aren't.
I'm a fan. I'm also hugely disappointed to see artists whose music I love and respect, and who might even have had life-changing influences on me, decades ago, spouting such utter crap as I saw on that video. It actually doesn't bode well for the porno being a decent box.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4093
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
Not me, I'm afraid. Well, sometimes I listen to WAMU's bluegrass channel online.
Ya, I listen to LOTS of online radio, including KCRW. KCRW is probably the only station in the country I can leave on and not have my intelligence insulted by stupid music or old overplayed "classic" rock. Yes, I am a "member" and contribute regularly.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4094
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
I'm a fan. I'm also hugely disappointed to see artists whose music I love and respect, and who might even have had life-changing influences on me, decades ago, spouting such utter crap as I saw on that video. It actually doesn't bode well for the porno being a decent box.
It was extremely cringe worthy in some ways. But you have to keep in mind that these people are not scientists, not even sound engineers.

You may watch the video and go "Man , why is Springsteen making a fool of himself this way, talking about the warm sound of the added bit rate of Pono after coming out of the Pono car". But keep in mind that he is a lyricist, and someone who knows how to move people with his voice and his attitude. I don't see how these funny comments in the video could change the perception of what the artist have accomplished within their actual field of expertise, which is a whole different ball game.

They are just enthuthiastic, like we are when we discover a new 'game changer' of a plugin every month or so, only to move on to something else pretty quickly.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4095
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Topgear View Post
It was extremely cringe worthy in some ways. But you have to keep in mind that these people are not scientists, not even sound engineers.

You may watch the video and go "Man , why is Springsteen making a fool of himself this way, talking about the warm sound of the added bit rate of Pono after coming out of the Pono car". But keep in mind that he is a lyricist, and someone who knows how to move people with his voice and his attitude. I don't see how these funny comments in the video could change the perception of what the artist have accomplished within their actual field of expertise, which is a whole different ball game.

They are just enthuthiastic, like we are when we discover a new 'game changer' of a plugin every month or so, only to move on to something else pretty quickly.
I think you being a bit silly here.

No, 'these people' are 'not even sound engineers'......but I'd wager a great many of them know a LOT more about what excellent sound actually sounds like than most engineers on this board, after spending decades working with the best ......just enthusiastic? I mean, think about it for a second.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4096
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Old 27th April 2014
  #4097
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Ya, I listen to LOTS of online radio, including KCRW. KCRW is probably the only station in the country I can leave on and not have my intelligence insulted by stupid music or old overplayed "classic" rock. Yes, I am a "member" and contribute regularly.
Let the KCRW fans step up. Morning Becomes Eclectic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thad E Ginathom View Post
I'm a fan. I'm also hugely disappointed to see artists whose music I love and respect, and who might even have had life-changing influences on me, decades ago, spouting such utter crap as I saw on that video. It actually doesn't bode well for the porno being a decent box.
Ya it's just too over the top. Plus as much as I respect Neil for writing some great music he has released some stinkers as well in my opinion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
I think you being a bit silly here.

No, 'these people' are 'not even sound engineers'......but I'd wager a great many of them know a LOT more about what excellent sound actually sounds like than most engineers on this board, after spending decades working with the best ......just enthusiastic? I mean, think about it for a second.
Wait a minute here these guys in the video can make wild exclamations that can indeed be interpreted as silly in their own right. Yet you call his comment about them silly. Pot meet kettle.

As far as some of them knowing great sound quite possible. Saying most engineers on this board don't know great sound whether they can achieve it or not possible. Wagering most engineers on this forum don't know great sound just because some of the stars have worked with the best? Well that is a wild assumption and a generalization on your part. Actually your statement about the rock stars knowing great sound is an assumption and a generalization as well.
Mind you do not take this personally Karloff you have entered into a debate offering up your position to be debated. I am merely offering you a counter point to your side.

Fact is Neil Young has put out some horrible sounds stinkers in the 80's were is that great sound experience. Fact is some of his releases are seriously band limited. Where was he to cry foul about the terrible sound then.

This thread has calmed down a bit and some have started too see more eye to eye. It does not change a few pertinent points.
1. Pono may sound good.
2. There is not enough scientific evidence proving 192k is indeed beneficial
3. There is enough scientific evidence suggesting it is not needed.
4. Wild subjective claims do not prove something works
5. The hocus pocus marketing used by the Pono camp ( it sounds underwater till 192k) is non scientific BS posing as science.

In essence this thread will do nothing but go around and around because of those points
We have reached an impasse because of some peoples beliefs. Not unfair just true.

My own biggest issue with Pono is the level of the marketing crap which will in my opinion mislead the public for the worst and is possibly making the artists look bad. Both of these things bode well for no one.
It also the fact that I feel 192k is unneeded especially at the consumer level for accurate sound reproduction and great sound.
I have stayed out of the thread for the last day or so because it was becoming utterly redundant.

To the mods it's time this thread was closed in my opinion. It is fast becoming a dead horse being beaten.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4098
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
I think you being a bit silly here.

No, 'these people' are 'not even sound engineers'......but I'd wager a great many of them know a LOT more about what excellent sound actually sounds like
At many times in their lives, 'these people' sat in the control room of a great studio with great monitors and top of the line converters listening to their own music on high-resolution master tapes and then days, weeks, or months later they drove around in Neil Young's Caddy and said Pono was the "best sound they ever heard".

Come on.

To put the kindest possible spin on it, they are possibly having an understandable difficulty making a direct comparison to something they have not heard since a considerable time interval has passed. We don't know if they are even comparing the same master. Quite possibly they are hearing a different SONG or BAND in Neil's car than their own song that they heard in the studio. So they may not be making a "direct" comparison of any kind.

Musicians hire professional recording engineers to worry about the sound so that they don't have to. If a musician has "ears" equal to his engineer, that's great, but he doesn't have to. If he doesn't, he will not be less successful as a musician - because he has professionals on his team to take care of it.

The one real difference (for the purposes of our evaluation of these testimonials) is that someone thinking like an engineer would QUESTION the different circumstances; and QUESTION the different content before blurting out: "it's the best sound I ever heard". He would also perhaps have a better retention of his sonic 'yardstick' over time.

The likelihood that a file on a $400 Pono in a moving car sounds better than the same file on professional converters, on professional monitors in a well-tuned control room is, IMO, vanishingly small. I would like to hear one for myself, but in the meantime, I think we all know where to place these testimonials on the spectrum of reliability.

If we start seeing mastering studios buying Ponos for their D/A we will know the testimonials were right!
Old 27th April 2014
  #4099
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Whatever Joe, whatever. Amuse yourself.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4100
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpro View Post

As far as some of them knowing great sound quite possible. Saying most engineers on this board don't know great sound whether they can achieve it or not possible. Wagering most engineers on this forum don't know great sound just because some of the stars have worked with the best? Well that is a wild assumption and a generalization on your part. Actually your statement about the rock stars knowing great sound is an assumption and a generalization as well.
Mind you do not take this personally Karloff you have entered into a debate offering up your position to be debated. I am merely offering you a counter point to your side.
More than quite possible.

I said that many of them will know more of what great sound actually sounds like than MOST of the engineers on this board. A guess, yes, but looking around here these days I'd say a pretty good one.

If you spend a few decades hearing great sound you will likely know something of what it entails, if perhaps not much detail of how it gets tweaked into pocket. But most definitely how it sounds and feels to hear. More than a mid range engineer. My opinion, feel free to disagree.

Not taken personally at all, no worries, and sure, some rock stars will not know good sound from Adam, ever.

I reckon you are spot on about this thread having had its day as well.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4101
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post



How can you tell?

.
It's the fear that drives people to still do it.
Why do you think mix engineers and mastering engineers are smashing everything into a brick wall? For fun?
Old 27th April 2014
  #4102
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post

Musicians hire professional recording engineers to worry about the sound so that they don't have to. If a musician has "ears" equal to his engineer, that's great, but he doesn't have to. If he doesn't, he will not be less successful as a musician - because he has professionals on his team to take care of it.
!
Oh Joe, even I have to call foul on this one.
Many artists have a keen ear for quality sound. They often hire an engineer who knows how to put together the components to create the sound. It's not that artists don't know a good sound when they here it, it's that don't want to set up the mics themselves, or they don't understand how to set up the mics with the mic/pres and the eq's etc. many times I've sat in the studio and it's the artist who makes the final decision on the sound. The best sound is called by the artist, the engineer is the facilitator.
The earlier poster who claimed artist who were enthusiastic about Pono weren't qualified to know what a good sound was is reaching - big time in my opinion.
Artists spend an entire career listening to sound, deciding whether it's right or not, working out how it can be better.
Ok..... On the other side...... As I said a few pages ago, I'm sure musicians go with a gut feeling, a vibe, and don't analyse facts or the science. As such, their reaction to hearing Pono could be over enthusiastic, in the moment, irrational and exaggerated. None of us probably know until we hear the thing for ourselves.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4103
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Thank you, Chris. I would have thought that could have been obvious, but obviously not.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
It's the fear that drives people to still do it.
Why do you think mix engineers and mastering engineers are smashing everything into a brick wall? For fun?
I believe that is true. I did some mastering a year or so and the guy came back and said it wasn't as loud as other music in his playlist. I showed him how I could get it louder easily enough and showed him the artifacts... he eventually agreed my master was great as is. There is a fear that clients will complain and think that loud = pro.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4105
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
If a musician has "ears" equal to his engineer, that's great, but he doesn't have to. If he doesn't, he will not be less successful as a musician - because he has professionals on his team to take care of it.
Exactly. A successful band leader isn't necessarily an expert on the music industry. A great musician isn't necessarily a great audio engineer. A terrific instrumentalist isn't necessarily a great businessman.

There is no reason to make jumps in fancy here. Sure, there are probably better ears generally speaking among musicians than among the general public but I can't tell you the number of times I've been in a musician's friend car or attended their solo gig and the EQ and/or system setup were painful and just 30 seconds of attention could have fixed it significantly.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Oh Joe, even I have to call foul on this one.
... It's not that artists don't know a good sound when they here it, it's that don't want to set up the mics themselves, or they don't understand how to set up the mics with the mic/pres and the eq's etc....
but that's what I said


Quote:
The earlier poster who claimed artist who were enthusiastic about Pono weren't qualified to know what a good sound was is reaching - big time in my opinion.
All "I" said was they may or may not be qualified. Whereas an engineer MUST be qualified or he wouldn't have the gig.

Q: How many engineers appear in that video?

In any case, I think we can agree it is not the Artist's job to be consistent and scientific and suspicious of Placebo. It IS the engineer's job to ask those questions: "Am I making a FAIR comparison?" "Am I comparing apples to apples?" "Do I really have an exact template in my mind for what 24/96 sounds like back in the studio?" "Am I just liking this just better because I KNOW it is more expensive or I KNOW it is a bigger file?" "Am I liking this better because I am riding around the Hollywood Hills with Neil Young?" Fair questions.

Quote:
Artists spend an entire career listening to sound, deciding whether it's right or not, working out how it can be better
Yes but with a focus on the sound of One Artist = themselves. Engineers tend to be listening to the sound of many artists and even listening to "sound" in the abstract - as much as that is possible. The engineers are sound specialists.
Quote:
As I said a few pages ago, I'm sure musicians go with a gut feeling, a vibe, and don't analyse facts or the science. As such, their reaction to hearing Pono could be over enthusiastic, in the moment, irrational and exaggerated. None of us probably know until we hear the thing for ourselves.
which is all I was saying. No reason to call "foul" when you are saying the same thing. These people HAVE heard high-resolution files 'before'. In a professional studio. It is far more likely that they simply FORGOT how that sounds, than it is that a Pono in a car sounds better.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4107
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
How many engineers appear in that video?

The engineers are sound specialists.

I believe there was one particular heavy hitting engineer hiding in that video.....

And to believe that some artists are any less than sound specialists themselves is naive.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4108
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Ya, I listen to LOTS of online radio, including KCRW. KCRW is probably the only station in the country I can leave on and not have my intelligence insulted by stupid music or old overplayed "classic" rock. Yes, I am a "member" and contribute regularly.
I definitely like some of Garth Trinidad's late night spins, and a few other old-timers, there.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4109
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Exactly. A successful band leader isn't necessarily an expert on the music industry. A great musician isn't necessarily a great audio engineer. A terrific instrumentalist isn't necessarily a great businessman.
Of course, there is an exception to every rule.
To claim artists who have had a career of albums behind them don't know a good sound when they hear it is a massive reach however. It feels like those who want to knock Pono of it's perch will agree to any illogical thought, while arguing that those who support Pono are being illogical.
Does Eric Clapton know a good guitar sound, does Steve Gadd know a good drum sound, or do they both rely on audio experts to guide them?
Sorry, it's a nonsense.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4110
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
And to believe that some artists are any less than sound specialists themselves is naive.
the people in the video said it was "the best sound they ever heard"! These people have heard 24/96 and even 24/192 before! IN THE STUDIO. On professional converters. On professional monitors. In a tuned, purpose-built control room.

To 'believe' that they are making an objective comparison of that - to a Pono in a car - and that the Pono actually "wins", is the real naivete.
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