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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 27th April 2014
  #4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
If I recommend a restaurant, I do it by saying "The food there is FANTASTIC. Check it out!"

Does anyone say "Yes, but did you know where you were eating? Maybe you were pre-inclined to like it..." etc.?

- c
Do I ask questions?

You bet. How was the service? What kind of menu do they have? How were the prices? How's the atmosphere?

And then, what if it that person turns out to be an investor and the restaurateur is his brother-in-law who's been living in his spare bedroom for the last 3 years? heh

So I go online and find out what other people say, too.


More data, carefully analyzed, compared with other data, and the interpretations and conclusions of other observers, can often lead to improved understanding.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4022
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post
More ad-hominem attacks, based on your preference for how one presents an argument.

Don't confuse your preference with anything but that, and don't confuse "aggression" with scientific discourse.

If I was actually being aggressive, you would have really noticed. Everyone else would have noticed, too.

You confuse advocacy with aggression, basically, and that's going to make it hard for you to ever engage in discourse with science types.
Nice try. I am confusing nothing. Your style is one of underhand aggression, and the denial of the same is just part of it.

Preference has nothing to do with it. You were stating that my post somehow implied it was somehow wrong to state anything was BS, and that after I actually AGREED audio was rife with BS, as is medicine, your other mention, only I specified I thought the BS was spread a little differently to what you believe. Out of this you construct that I somehow implied that it is wrong to object strongly to BS.

And when I point it out to you, you start jabbering about ad hominem attacks. I never attacked you. All while you moan about others making themselves the victim.

If I thought all 'science types' would conduct themselves like this it would indeed be a bereft world. Luckily I do not believe that whatsoever. I believe that you would indeed have trouble engaging in discourse with anyone un-toylike in a credible manner like that. Science types included. Maybe you don't think people can smell your style coming. Or maybe you are actually unaware of it. Whichever, I am done. I wish you no ill, but you are not making yourself very palatable.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4023
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Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
Do I ask questions?

You bet. How was the service? What kind of menu do they have? How were the prices? How's the atmosphere?

And then, what if it that person turns out to be an investor and the restaurateur is his brother-in-law who's been living in his spare bedroom for the last 3 years? heh

So I go online and find out what other people say, too.
Yeah, and the 'person' has spent their entire life with food. Passionately. Eating it. Cooking it. For a living. Consumed by it.

And now you add a whole bunch of others. They are all also in spare bedrooms. And they ALSO have spent their adult lives dedicated to cooking and the enjoyment of food. And they live and breathe it.

And at the helm a guy who has been in the food game for decades and made legendary dishes, never known for anything less than being very uncompromisingly dedicated to his craft.

And still all you see is the spare bedrooms? Bereft, man.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4024
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post
More ad-hominem attacks, based on your preference for how one presents an argument.

Don't confuse your preference with anything but that, and don't confuse "aggression" with scientific discourse.

If I was actually being aggressive, you would have really noticed. Everyone else would have noticed, too.

You confuse advocacy with aggression, basically, and that's going to make it hard for you to ever engage in discourse with science types.
There are some people that are better to block.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4025
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mellotronic View Post
Lastly, I don't get the Neil Young bashing.
while a few people may be "bashing" Neil Young, the bulk of us are "bashing" Pono, or more precisely the sample-rate hype that Pono is based upon

I totally respect Neil Young's music, and I even once respected the consistency of his anti-digital stance even though I did not share his position. However, his musicianship and status as a rock and roll Legend does not grant him ANY automatic qualifications as an engineer or a scientist. That must be 'earned' separately. For everyone. And frankly, that 'underwater' metaphor chart is particularly disillusioning.

As for his anti-digital stance, I have LOST some respect there because he is now embracing a form of digital that people blindfolded are having some serious difficulty distinguishing from the ordinary CDs that he spent 3 decades railing against. One has to wonder why the same PCM digital that was The Devil, is suddenly an Angel just by adding a few more bits and some more tics of the sample clock. It "puts back" NONE of the qualities of the beloved analog formats, that's for sure. And when your eyes are closed, you have a hard time even telling it's not a CD.
Quote:
You guys don't get this, don't care and want to attack people who sense these differences as believing in Unicorns and fairies.
correction: "people who SAY they sense these differences" As many of us have found once we entered into a blind test, there is a big difference between hearing the difference when you "know" which one you are listening to, and hearing the difference when that piece of information is Hidden from you.

People who have only 'sensed' these differences when they were 'peeking' have not much interesting to say to the group. Get back to us after your blind test. They have only accomplished something equal to what a DEAF person can do! Seriously. If he is allowed to LOOK, a deaf person can 'tell the difference' (with the speakers off!) ...

If you can't hear it blindfolded, it IS a Unicorn.

Quote:
I'm just glad your not the ones writing songs because there is a real lack of intuitive reasoning in all of this number clinging.
and this is where you go completely off the rails. Most if not all of the people you are trying to insult with this remark are on the creative side as well. Not one of them "uses science" to write a f---ing song!

But (hello?) - we are not talking about writing a song. We are talking about evaluating the value (or lack of value) of one technological choice over another technological choice. We are talking about the hardware and software used for capturing and playing back sound. Science and math are not only appropriate tools for evaluating these technical machines, they are the very means by which those technical machines were created in the first place! The machines that make your career possible would not exist without these "numbers".

Finally, as a person who is a creative artist/writer/performer as well as a recording engineer, I can state in no uncertain terms that knowledge of science and creative talent do not form a zero-sum complement! Knowing science does not make someone "less creative" nor does being ignorant of science make someone "more creative".

The saddest thing in the world is someone who deliberately cultivates scientific ignorance in the mistaken belief that if he actually learns something it may damage his "art".

Old 27th April 2014
  #4026
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
eventually you are going to 'learn' the names your daughter made up.

I shuffled them and re-arranged them and did all these different tests before I checked on what the files were. I never remembered which names I chose for each from the previous test.

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post


I think you actually might have a better chance of doing well on the test if you actually went and got an ABX software program. That is to say your test is to my way of thinking "harder". The software will not only scramble the files when it is time to "guess", it will also give you the labeled A, and the labeled B - IOW you can "practice". You may begin to learn consistent differences when you "know" and then when you are given "X", you may be able to apply your knowledge of those differences.

I'm sure I could do better with more proper testing and a better monitoring set up. But what I did learn was that after listening to these "new found" 24/96 files, I was sure that it was a drastic improvement and that I would easily tell the difference in a test between the two, but then found out it wasn't so easy, that the difference was slight at best.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4027
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Yeah, and the 'person' has spent their entire life with food. Passionately. Eating it. Cooking it. For a living. Consumed by it.

And now you add a whole bunch of others. They are all also in spare bedrooms. And they ALSO have spent their adult lives dedicated to cooking and the enjoyment of food. And they live and breathe it.

And at the helm a guy who has been in the food game for decades and made legendary dishes, never known for anything less than being very uncompromisingly dedicated to his craft.

And still all you see is the spare bedrooms? Bereft, man.
Do you even know where you're going with that?
Old 27th April 2014
  #4028
A little backgrounder for those who may not be familiar with all the players in this section of the mega-thread...

JJ Johnston
Old 27th April 2014
  #4029
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
Do you even know where you're going with that?
You obviously didn't get it.

Let me explain. I see a LOT of credible musicians lined up that have spent their lives dedicated to their music, many of which I perceive as guys with integrity and lots of passion. The first thought that comes to my mind here is not that they will earn money if Pono takes off and that hence they are probably ALL outright lying to me for capital gain.

Maybe you get it now. Maybe not. Probably not.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4030
Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post
So in other words, it's somehow wrong to object strongly to absolute BS?
Sure, but when it comes to the Arts there is no such thing as BS, just subjective opinion.
I don't think anyone has objected strongly to your absolute scientific analysis of audio. I think there has been a general attack on anyone prepared to give Pono a chance.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4031
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
A little backgrounder for those who may not be familiar with all the players in this section of the mega-thread...

JJ Johnston
Sure, I already knew that.
I've been a successful musician for thirty years.
That doesn't give me the right to call JJ a waste of space or a liar.
My general point is that scientists and technology experts cannot write the book on the creative arts.
JJ's input in the thread is excellent regarding his expertise on audio, the ear, the delivery system etc…
I don't think that needs to descend into being outright rude to musicians who are open to other aspects of Pono that might make it a worthwhile project.
Speaking personally I'm not saying JJ is wrong about the value of sample rates - forgive me if I'm mischaracterising the debate as I'm not an audio expert myself.
I think you lose some credibility when you are downright rude and offensive to anyone who even slightly disagrees with your opinion.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4032
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Another thing that should be considered is the potential for radio to grab onto this. That would be huge! Even if the increased fidelity over CD is marginal, it is pretty extreme over the sound of the MP3's all the broadcasters seem to have adopted.

Radio seems to exacerbate any format deficiencies that may be present. Listening to MP3's on FM radio is an excruciating experience.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4033
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Nice try. I am confusing nothing. Your style is one of underhand aggression, and the denial of the same is just part of it.
Proof by assertion, anyone?

You obviously haven't ever engaged in a scientific discussion.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4034
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
I think you lose some credibility when you are downright rude and offensive to anyone who even slightly disagrees with your opinion.
My thought exactly. A lot would seem more fitting than 'some', too. Real credibility comes across at peace, from a calm place.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4035
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
There are some people that are better to block.
Sure. There is only one person in the entire Gearslutz community I've blocked and this is from 15 years actively posting here.
I'm not going to block JJ, even though I find he is inexplicably rude and dismissive to others in the thread.
If you block people you have a difference of opinion with, you end up closing the door on reflective change, unwilling to see things from another point of view, unwilling to accept people sometimes have a valid different view to you.
So if you are just right, and that's it, nothing can ever change in that regard, then block people who disagree with you.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4036
I see, I actually was thinking of what I would do in the restaurant example. Literally. I didn't even think about the Pono connection. Had I, I might have approached the brother-in-law angle differently.

That said, if we're actually talking about Pono, nothing I've seen or read or heard has made me the slightest bit less skeptical of the claims being made for the product and service by NY and others, primarily because many of those claims are either meaningless 'marketing poesy' or, in at least a few cases, defy common sense and accepted, tested understanding-- not to mention my own experience.

No brother in law required.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4037
Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post
Proof by assertion, anyone?

You obviously haven't ever engaged in a scientific discussion.
If nothing else, purely the time you claimed a forum member's different opinion to yours was tantamount to causing you 'actual harm'.

I'm not a scientist, but I know closed minded bullying when I read it.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4038
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
But (hello?) - we are not talking about writing a song. We are talking about evaluating the value (or lack of value) of one technological choice over another technological choice. We are talking about the hardware and software used for capturing and playing back sound. Science and math are not only appropriate tools for evaluating these technical machines, they are the very means by which those technical machines were created in the first place! The machines that make your career possible would not exist without these "numbers".
Indeed, what you are responding to there is equivocation, used to build a straw man (both an implicit one and an explicit one), which is then used in an attempt to confuse the subject of artistic creation with mathematics.

That confusion, of course, is absurd.

What's more, there is another confusion lurking in the wings, that of confusing accuracy or media with artistic choice.

Artistic choice is what it is. That's what artists do. They produce, one hopes, what they prefer to produce.

But nobody gets to PREFER what part of a scientific theory they want to accept.

Nobody gets to PREFER to reject the well-documented psychology of perception.

They don't have to like it, but science works in testable propositions. Preference may, if it wishes, do so, but is not limited in scope. One can prefer whatever they prefer. It's just not science or mathematics.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4039
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post
Proof by assertion, anyone?

You obviously haven't ever engaged in a scientific discussion.
Oh dear oh dear. You really are a piece of work. I do not wish to make you the first person I ever block but am quite bored of this at this stage, so would very much appreciate if you don't address me any more and stop putting meanings to my posts in that special way of yours. I'll guarantee you I will return the favour of no longer addressing you.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4040
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
My thought exactly. A lot would seem more fitting than 'some', too. Real credibility comes across at peace, from a calm place.
This may be how you imagine your world to be, but that makes it all the more obvious that your world is not that of either science or mathematics.

Stick to what you know, I suggest, and stop engaging in quackadoodledandy amateur psychological diagnoses of people you've never met.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4041
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Another thing that should be considered is the potential for radio to grab onto this. That would be huge! Even if the increased fidelity over CD is marginal, it is pretty extreme over the sound of the MP3's all the broadcasters seem to have adopted.

Radio seems to exacerbate any format deficiencies that may be present. Listening to MP3's on FM radio is an excruciating experience.
The difficulty with that is bandwidth. Presently, radio stations are using very low-rate AAC-HE in the USA, at least, and the quality is, at least to my ear, repugnant.

How would you send a higher-sample-rate signal over the air without compression in a channel that is at best 96kb/s? It's not going to be easy!

It would be NICE if "HDRadio" (which wisely stands for Hybrid Digital Radio, not "High Definition" because it sure the (*&*( ain't High Def) used a meaningful bit rate and a decent codec at a decent rate, at least.

But I'm not holding my breath. The "conventional wisdom" is "more channels good", which is really kind of silly given that the total listenership is sinking like the titanic.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4042
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Timothy Lawler's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
A little backgrounder for those who may not be familiar with all the players in this section of the mega-thread...

JJ Johnston
Good one, theblue.

Mr Johnston, I read your posts avidly. Thanks for being here.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4043
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
My general point is that scientists and technology experts cannot write the book on the creative arts.
And they are not doing that, so why are you defending another straw-man position?
Old 27th April 2014
  #4044
Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post

But nobody gets to PREFER what part of a scientific theory they want to accept.

Nobody gets to PREFER to reject the well-documented psychology of perception.
Sure, that's reasonable.
maybe some in the thread have made the mistake to question science. But I think mainly some people have been willing to see what happens with Pono, and perhaps listen to it themselves.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4045
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Sure, I already knew that.
I've been a successful musician for thirty years.
That doesn't give me the right to call JJ a waste of space or a liar.
My general point is that scientists and technology experts cannot write the book on the creative arts.
JJ's input in the thread is excellent regarding his expertise on audio, the ear, the delivery system etc…
I don't think that needs to descend into being outright rude to musicians who are open to other aspects of Pono that might make it a worthwhile project.
Speaking personally I'm not saying JJ is wrong about the value of sample rates - forgive me if I'm mischaracterising the debate as I'm not an audio expert myself.
I think you lose some credibility when you are downright rude and offensive to anyone who even slightly disagrees with your opinion.
First, let me say I share what I perceive as your desire for a more genial atmosphere in this thread. Certainly there are those with greater patience and humor than others but I see a lot of frustration in many quarters.


Moving on, I've yet to see where JJ has conflated the fields of audio science with musical art in this thread. If someone's got a link to that, I'll go check it out.

With regard to his obvious reluctance to passively suffer what he -- and others I will hasten to add -- obviously consider foolishness, I suspect he's heard his share of nonsense and wants to get on with the process of getting solid information into the hands of those who are willing to do their homework.

That's just my guess, of course.


PS, chrisso -- I knew you knew who.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4046
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
I see, I actually was thinking of what I would do in the restaurant example. Literally. I didn't even think about the Pono connection.
Didn't think about the Pono connection??? What on earth did you think Silver Sonya was getting at?? Maybe the fact you were to busy jumping in to argue with it before even stopping to think about what he might mean says something about something.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4047
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Oh dear oh dear. You really are a piece of work. I do not wish to make you the first person I ever block but am quite bored of this at this stage, so would very much appreciate if you don't address me any more and stop putting meanings to my posts in that special way of yours. I'll guarantee you I will return the favour of no longer addressing you.

So, you don't wish to have your passive-aggressive personal attacks responded to? Well, I can't say as I would want that in your shoes, given the completely silly kind of claims you make, and the maniacal arrogance you exhibit.

Note, I'm not attacking YOU, I am attacking your inappropriate actions.

Learn the difference!
Old 27th April 2014
  #4048
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post
So, you don't wish to have your passive-aggressive personal attacks responded to? Well, I can't say as I would want that in your shoes, given the completely silly kind of claims you make, and the maniacal arrogance you exhibit.

Note, I'm not attacking YOU, I am attacking your inappropriate actions.

Learn the difference!
Goodbye.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4049
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
With regard to his obvious reluctance to passively suffer what he -- and others I will hasten to add -- obviously consider foolishness, I suspect he's heard his share of nonsense and wants to get on with the process of getting solid information into the hands of those who are willing to do their homework.

That's just my guess, of course.
Pretty good guess. I've heard the same tomfoolishness since at least 1975.

I don't think anyone in this thread has told an artist how to do their job, in fact I know I've put at least one post up pointing out that in fact the artistic choices are NOT what I'm addressing, while pointing out some major, reasonable differences between, say, a guitar amp (voiced very much on purpose) and a reproduction amplifier and speaker (which should put out what goes into it).

Rather than respond to what I've actually said, there is a continuous, frankly fallacious repetition of the same nonsense, over and over, a continuation of the same baloney that I've been hearing (as have many others in the field) since just about the day they started.
Old 27th April 2014
  #4050
Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post
And they are not doing that, so why are you defending another straw-man position?
Actually I'm not.
I'm just saying being on the right side of science doesn't give you the green light to call anyone who questions you, even naively, a trouble maker, an idiot, a waste of space etc, etc….
That's in my view how debate works.
Just a small examples… No one with a different opinion to you is threatening to cause you' actual harm'. Why would you even suggest such a thing.
I feel I have a very genuinely held view of what the phrase 'the labels' represents. I have been in the music industry for 30 years, you have not.
Instead of agreeing to disagree, or just accepting we have a difference of opinion, you publicly labelled me a trouble maker, a waste of time, only looking to pick a fight.
That does not seem to me to be the actions of someone confident in their position, and defending it reasonably and logically.
If you call everyone who disagrees with you 'a time wasting trouble maker' even when they are wrong, there is no room left for genuine debate.
Sad days.
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