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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 25th April 2014
  #3811
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by bogosort View Post
JJ, thanks for the excellent slides on dynamic range and the distinction between analytical DR and perceptual DR (as well as the corresponding difficulties of nailing down each). Really good insight there. The loudness histogram is an interesting approach; do you think there's value in the probability distribution moments (e.g., variance, kurtosis, skew, etc.) as perceptual DR indicators? One would think that a few numbers that describe the shape of the histogram would be a better gauge of a song's perceived DR than a simple dB (rms to noise? max to min?) figure.

Also, thanks for posting the script. FYI: I had to change "hann(len)" to "hanning(len)" to get it to run in my version of Octave (3.6.4). I'm going through my music library and checking out their histograms; pretty cool!
Agggh. Should be "Hann" but you get the same results.

My guess is that the interblock variation (not variance, although it could be converted to variance, come to think of it) is going to help decide what a "dynamic" track is, the 5% and 95% defines dynamic range. I'm not sure what the higher-order statistics of the loudness PDF are going to mean, which does not mean I think they are useless, I have no idea what they will correspond to in a perceptual sense.

If you want a shock, run "sk84boi" through that, and prepare to be amused. American Idiot (one of the plots) I can understand, it is SUPPOSED to be like that.

JJ
Old 25th April 2014
  #3812
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Yes, it's a guess. Obviously I don't know that.

Apple's history is building together stuff people want into a great experience. They don't invent stuff. This would be another example. But, yes it's a guess. If there is a market there they will exploit it.
In regard of their invention of the iPOD.

AT&T Labs - Innovation - Technology Timeline - a2b Music| AT&T Labs| AT&T

Look in the url for the date. Care to guess whose compression algorithm that was?
Old 25th April 2014
  #3813
Quote:
Originally Posted by bogosort View Post
JJ, thanks for the excellent slides on dynamic range and the distinction between analytical DR and perceptual DR (as well as the corresponding difficulties of nailing down each).[...]
Ditto.
Old 25th April 2014
  #3814
Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post
If so, why are you so concerned?
I'm concerned because I am in the business.
The overwhelming majority of people I've come up against are music enthusiasts.
There is also an enormous amount of mid-level artists, smaller labels, independent artists and independent labels all of whom are part of the music industry, but have very little in common with the major corporate media companies (Sony, Universal etc).
So I call out some facts when people start to blame PONO on 'the music industry'. And I'm calling several of you out for passing off personal opinion as fact, mainly because you same people have been merciless when anyone who disagrees with you has written anything that isn't a proven fact.
So, if you are going to set a standard, set it for everyone, don't just fall into lazy criticism about 'the labels' or 'the music industry' which has no basis in fact.
Old 25th April 2014
  #3815
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
And I'm calling several of you out for passing off personal opinion as fact, mainly because you same people have been merciless when anyone who disagrees with you has said anything that isn't a proven fact.
Nonsense. Follow the money.
Old 25th April 2014
  #3816
S21
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S21's Avatar
 

"The labels" supporting Pono is a bit like Pepsi supporting a new nightclub somewhere. You want to retail our products? Sure, go ahead.
Old 25th April 2014
  #3817
Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post
Nonsense. Follow the money.
Nonsense yourself.
One minute the cool head of scientific fact, the next rambling anti-music industry garbage.

Who is the money going to? I honestly don't know for sure, a trio of major media corporations like Sony and Universal?
How does that constitute a 'music industry' conspiracy to entice the public to buy their music again in a higher rate format?
It doesn't.
Honestly, I've sat here for days feeling a little bad about the people being ridiculed and lambasted, although I had to accept that 'facts' trump subjective opinion. So it is not a little ironic that the intellectual high ground has been so easily given up in order to indulge in a little prejudiced music industry bashing.
Old 25th April 2014
  #3818
Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post
Nonsense. Follow the money.
There are five people running the company: Pono.
Three of the five are tech industry stalwarts, two are legends in Silicon Valley. The third has been involved in launching 80 new tech products including some for Apple.
There is no one from any record company in the founding team.
How this becomes the music industry's evil child is beyond me.
Old 25th April 2014
  #3819
Quote:
Originally Posted by S21 View Post
"The labels" supporting Pono is a bit like Pepsi supporting a new nightclub somewhere. You want to retail our products? Sure, go ahead.
Of course.
Old 25th April 2014
  #3820
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nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
So I call out some facts when people start to blame PONO on 'the music industry'. And I'm calling several of you out for passing off personal opinion as fact, mainly because you same people have been merciless when anyone who disagrees with you has written anything that isn't a proven fact.
I haven't seen anyone as "blaming" Pono on the industry, instead people have criticized them for jumping on the bandwagon of a snake oil product. Rightfully so... the record industry saw a potential cash cow and are probably chomping at the bit to exploit it and resell their back catalog all over again to the foolish.

As far as facts go, dude you've just gotta stop. The only facts are those that are truly facts (i.e. the fact that the AES ran a study and people couldn't reliably hear the difference between 44.1 and higher sample rates). That is a fact.

Everything else is opinion. EVERYTHING. You're getting all caught up in a mindless pointless tangent. From the guy talking about frequency velocity to the guy who says the TLM103 is junk to the one who says 192khz sounds "night and day" better to the guy who says the music industry is full of crooks to the guy who says the music industry is run by people who care about music... ALL OF IT IS OPINION.
Old 25th April 2014
  #3821
mixmixmix
Guest
Neil & Co started on Pono 5 years ago. Nobody except few of their chronies heard the unit so far. Albums of old music we all already have will cost as much as $24.99. Clumsy player with a technology available elsewhere and cheap underpowered DAC stages is $400. I don't need to hear it, I can already smell it.
Old 25th April 2014
  #3822
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
There are five people running the company: Pono.
Three of the five are tech industry stalwarts, two are legends in Silicon Valley. The third has been involved in launching 80 new tech products including some for Apple.
There is no one from any record company in the founding team.
How this becomes the music industry's evil child is beyond me.
Nice attempt at evasion, this part of the discussion was about what "the labels" meant.

It had nothing to do with Pono at all, and everything to do with your disingenuous response to what "the labels" represented.

It is you who have falsely commingled Pono with the discussion in regard to "the Labels".
Old 25th April 2014
  #3823
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Nonsense yourself.
One minute the cool head of scientific fact, the next rambling anti-music industry garbage.
Well, let's see what we have here.

A Straw-man version of what I said so farfetched as to appear deliberately fabricated, indeed.

I disagreed with your portrayal of what "the labels" meant, and you have with evident malice, malice that appears intended to cause actual harm, associated my defense of what "the labels" meant with someone else's opinion IN A DIFFERENT CONTEXT.
Old 25th April 2014
  #3824
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Everything else is opinion. EVERYTHING. You're getting all caught up in a mindless pointless tangent. From the guy talking about frequency velocity to the guy who says the TLM103 is junk to the one who says 192khz sounds "night and day" better to the guy who says the music industry is full of crooks to the guy who says the music industry is run by people who care about music... ALL OF IT IS OPINION.
With whatever respect is due, some opinions carry a lot more meaning that others, so no, it is not just ALL OPINION.

And what's this "frequency velocity" thing, anyhow?
Old 25th April 2014
  #3825
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3rd Degree's Avatar
 

Personal attacks are really unwarranted, especially in this discussion. This product is such an example of how Bay Area tech companies start, labels shouldn't even be a part of this discussion, they started with Kickstarter, so it's not like they got investors from high level companies here anyway. Being a Silicon Valley company, I could see the potential for some serious backlash if they only worked with major labels on the music distribution side of things anyway. One thing that is not uncommon for Silicon Valley start ups is to create the product, or even the idea first, get financial backing, then fill in the blanks as people take interest. I think it's going to be very challenging to try to read into where they are going with this and any assumptions their are as unwarranted as any technical claims Pono has put out that people take issue with. At least at this point in time.
Old 25th April 2014
  #3826
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
... the record industry saw a potential cash cow and are probably chomping at the bit to exploit it and resell their back catalog all over again to the foolish.
The 'record industry' being three labels?

Following the money you've got to say three of the five people directly making money are from the Tech industry, Silicon Valley natives.
Of course, other artists and labels need to be paid if their content is exploited. But Pono is a project backed by tech individuals - and one old artist (Young).
Old 25th April 2014
  #3827
Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post

I disagreed with your portrayal of what "the labels" meant, and you have with evident malice, malice that appears intended to cause actual harm, associated my defense of what "the labels" meant with someone else's opinion IN A DIFFERENT CONTEXT.
The 'labels' are the labels. That's just the bottom line. The 'labels' aren't a handful of multi-national corporations.
I'm not being rude to anyone, just suggesting if you are going to attack people for being loose with their facts, at least be more accurate with your own commentary.
This isn't a music industry scheme to fleece the general public. The majority of the music industry (the labels - if you like) have absolutely no connection with Pono.
Old 25th April 2014
  #3828
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
It would be more palatable if you heaped the same amount of scorn on Apple for planning 96khz downloads. I haven't seen a word from you, Don Hills, or Paul Brown, presumably because it's only 'the labels' that can sell a sample rate no one needs.
Chris,
You appear to be saying that I've been "heaping scorn" on Pono (and/or "the labels") for offering high rate downloads, but giving Apple a free pass. As far as I can recall, I haven't done any such thing. So I would appreciate either a pointer to where you think I have done so, or a retraction.
Old 25th April 2014
  #3829
For the record, I didn't introduce the generalised criticism of the music industry and 'the labels' into the debate:

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul brown View Post
we can also look at the trend in the music industry. the industry strangled by a cartel. they sell us the future so they can sell us the past...again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul brown View Post
an emphatic yes. i want the present model to die. it has little to do with pono or how much you, or i, or science think the human ear can hear. the industry as it stands is a cartel, a monopoly. break it up. breathe some new life into the system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Record companies (at least the big ones) are ALSO just big megacorporations. They haven't cared about music for a LONG TIME.

I don't see a real difference most of the time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul brown View Post
@j_j

i am quite open about my disdain of the record 'business'. they were getting their hooks into me with this high-res malarkey. distracting me from my dynamic range cries of foul! i'm back on track! if they want music to be more emotional, more appealing, more valued, then give us back dynamic range. the ear is very good at processing it. it seems so obvious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul brown View Post
i have the utmost respect for artists and engineers striving towards their goals of capturing emotion in a recording. then the labels stamp on it. homogenises it. that is the part i am tarring and feathering!
Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post
First, the question has been answered in this thread. Again, either you have failed diligence or you are simply playing to the crowd.

Second, "the labels" is something most anyone in the recording or audio business knows offhand, it doesn't mean "all the labels" it means "the majors" and I frankly doubt you were unclear for even a second, if you ARE in the audio business.
So no, the music industry at large and most labels have no connection to Pono and should not be linked to any criticism of Pono or it's business model.
Old 25th April 2014
  #3830
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
Chris,
You appear to be saying that I've been "heaping scorn" on Pono (and/or "the labels") for offering high rate downloads, but giving Apple a free pass.
You appeared to agree with Paul Brown that Pono represented a 'marketing mistruth':
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul brown
... this is a site for audio engineers. it should be a bastion against marketing mistruths when it comes to audio. …
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
Sadly, a quick look through any of the gear threads shows that many audio engineers are as partial to the marketing Kool-Aid as anyone else.
I haven't seen any of you comment much about iTunes 96khz in this (pono) thread. Maybe I missed it.
Old 25th April 2014
  #3831
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
The 'labels' are the labels. That's just the bottom line. The 'labels' aren't a handful of multi-national corporations.
I'm not being rude to anyone, just suggesting if you are going to attack people for being loose with their facts, at least be more accurate with your own commentary.
This isn't a music industry scheme to fleece the general public. The majority of the music industry (the labels - if you like) have absolutely no connection with Pono.
I've not suggested that. Why are you replying to me, insinuating that I have said as much?

Please do not continue to attempt to associate me with positions I neither hold nor have stated.
Old 25th April 2014
  #3832
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
So no, the music industry at large and most labels have no connection to Pono and should not be linked to any criticism of Pono or it's business model.
You're the one who linked the two by completely removing comments from context and then shouting out a whole bunch of unwarranted insinuation.

Stop it. Just stop it.
Old 25th April 2014
  #3833
The very clear context was that the real motivation behind Pono was to sell people one more time, the records they'd already bought several times before.
I don't need to repost several pages of Paul Brown and Nuthinupmysleeve to make that observation.
You didn't need to comment, but you claimed 'the labels' was widely known to mean a handful of major labels. I disagree with that, but also note that several times posters mentioned 'the music industry'.
You then asked why I was so concerned. So I explained my position.
Your answer to that was a very dismissive 'follow the money'.
So I'm pointing out the major involvement in Pono as it stands today is from Silicon Valley, not 'the labels'.

So I love your 'strawman' protestations and your 'it's off topic' protestations, but all things considered I've been answering your questions extremely honestly. I don't think I've been evading anything. You've asked me questions, I've answered them.
To whit - the music industry is not using Pono to resell people music they already own. Pono is planning to sell people music they already own. Pono is run by a majority of tech industry, Silicon Valley notables, with some involvement from some artist's labels.

Quote:
NEIL YOUNG
Neil Young is our founder and the vision, force, energy, and voice of PonoMusic.

ELLIOT ROBERTS
Elliot Roberts is our SVP of Artist Relations. He is the legendary music manager and record executive.

JOHN HAMM
John Hamm is our CEO. He is a highly regarded organizational leader, entrepreneur and investor in Silicon Valley, with involvement at companies such as Adaptec, IronPort, Brocade, IBM and Western Digital.

PEDRAM ABRARI
Pedram Abrari is our SVP of Technology & Engineering. He is a top executive and technology leader in Silicon Valley, with involvement at companies such as Progress, Corticon, Western Asset, and PeopleMover.

PHIL BAKER
Phil Baker is our VP of Product Development & Operations. He is one of the most respected leaders in the consumer electronics space – very much in tune with trends and innovations. He’s led the development of over 80 tech products, including the Apple Newton and PowerBook laptops, e-readers, headphones, cameras, printers, appliances, and accessories such as the Stowaway keyboard.
Old 25th April 2014
  #3834
Some people have posited 'science' as hegemony that invalidates other perspectives and narratives. That kind of prescriptive science belongs in the last century, in the last millennium. The flaw in the logic is evident when the focus is shifted beyond Pono; spurious claims made backed by the perceived psuedo-authority of 'science.' To be certain we are correct, let's label the 'others' as Creationists or dopeheads or as akin to dodgy politicians; let's drop the debate at the point it becomes interesting, when insight is possible, when truth becomes uncomfortable and insert a funny dog video instead.

To be an impartial critic ones needs balance not partisanship; the conventions of reasoned debate should apply equally to all parties and not to those of one persuasion.
Old 25th April 2014
  #3835
Lives for gear
 
paul brown's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
The 'labels' are the labels. That's just the bottom line. The 'labels' aren't a handful of multi-national corporations.
I'm not being rude to anyone, just suggesting if you are going to attack people for being loose with their facts, at least be more accurate with your own commentary.
This isn't a music industry scheme to fleece the general public. The majority of the music industry (the labels - if you like) have absolutely no connection with Pono.
i understand that as someone who works in the industry and is passionate about music, you could get offended by my catch-all term of 'the labels'. i apologise for that oversight in my vitriol for the major three labels and their control over the loudness war.

i am not sure i can agree with your observations on their business practices. you want to view pono as being somehow independent of the record business. They made their license deals with the major labels way in advance of the service introduction, unlike many other streaming and download services.

if pono kills the loudness war, i'll be celebrating. i cannot see how pono can have its cake and eat it when it is in bed with the major labels. maybe i'm too world weary when it comes to corporations and marketing!
Old 25th April 2014
  #3836
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul brown View Post
i understand that as someone who works in the industry and is passionate about music, you could get offended by my catch-all term of 'the labels'. i apologise for that oversight in my vitriol for the major three labels and their control over the loudness war.
Perfect, thanks.

Quote:
i am not sure i can agree with your observations on their business practices. you want to view pono as being somehow independent of the record business. They made their license deals with the major labels way in advance of the service introduction, unlike many other streaming and download services.
I don't know the ins and outs myself. A handful of majors sold artists down the river on Spotify, so I'm no defender of multi-national media corporations by default. It's a shame the misdeeds of a few always get lumped in as 'the music industry' or 'the labels'. In the end, it feels like there are more Silicon Valley fingerprints on Pono than music industry. And I agree with the earlier post pointing out if someone wants to license your content, you'd usually be loath to refuse.

Quote:
i cannot see how pono can have its cake and eat it when it is in bed with the major labels. maybe i'm too world weary when it comes to corporations and marketing!
I don't know. I can't currently see Pono doing anything positive for the majority of artists, but maybe…..
Old 25th April 2014
  #3837
Lives for gear
 
paul brown's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
Some people have posited 'science' as hegemony that invalidates other perspectives and narratives. That kind of prescriptive science belongs in the last century, in the last millennium. The flaw in the logic is evident when the focus is shifted beyond Pono; spurious claims made backed by the perceived psuedo-authority of 'science.' To be certain we are correct, let's label the 'others' as Creationists or dopeheads or as akin to dodgy politicians; let's drop the debate at the point it becomes interesting, when insight is possible, when truth becomes uncomfortable and insert a funny dog video instead.

To be an impartial critic ones needs balance not partisanship; the conventions of reasoned debate should apply equally to all parties and not to those of one persuasion.
you're persistent!

the conventions of reasoned debate include talking sense. i don't understand what you are talking about.
Old 25th April 2014
  #3838
Lives for gear
 
Dpro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
There are five people running the company: Pono.
Three of the five are tech industry stalwarts, two are legends in Silicon Valley. The third has been involved in launching 80 new tech products including some for Apple.
There is no one from any record company in the founding team.
How this becomes the music industry's evil child is beyond me.
Ok Chrisso time to call foul. None of those of those people are Silicon Valley legends.
Successful people in software and one a successful consumer hardware inventor who have worked in Silicon Valley yes....but if you think they are Silicon Valley legends then you really know nothing about the valley I grew up in and has been a part of my whole life by family.

My father was a Silicon Valley legend in fact he was one of the top 5 men in the valley at Fairchild and his own company. None of the guys on the Pono team come close to the likes of my father and his friends who were responsible for all we have today in electronics today.

Oh and,by the way stop putting words in people's mouths no one that I know is calling Pono the music industry's evil child. One person is calling it a pawn of the Industry but it's a stretch to take that to the evil child metaphor.

While I am at please stop this the Pono people are being persecuted crap. Like I posted earlier it was the Pono fans in this thread that started calling the people asking for proof names first. Accusing people of crucifying people . I know you have been civil but many of the Pono supporters have been far less.
So please just step back man because you are starting to veer off the tracks here. I know you are better than that.
Old 25th April 2014
  #3839
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
You appeared to agree with Paul Brown that Pono represented a 'marketing mistruth': ...
That's a stretch too far. Read in context, my comment was about the general faith in gear marketing evident in many threads here, not about Pono. I remain unmollified.
Old 25th April 2014
  #3840
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
Some people have posited 'science' as hegemony that invalidates other perspectives and narratives.
Straw man,folks, coupled with deniability (the "Some people" that incriminates all by insinuation while allowing deniability when challenged) as an opening sentence. You have nothing at all, except a desire to stir the pot and blacken the reputations of those about whom you spread insinuation.

Exactly who has done what you claim, in what fashion, and where in this thread?
Specifically where, and how.
Deliver.
Topic:
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