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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 24th April 2014
  #3691
Airwindows
 
chrisj's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonaldDumsfeld View Post
That's not the end of the painful reality either. The next problem to address will be that it is pointless sampling a 2" 15ips master tape at anything higher than 16/44 because the resolution is less than 12 bits equivalent anyway. But lets leave that for another day.
You know, I am reasonably sure that I could pass a double-blind test between 2" 15 ips master tape and 12 bit digital audio at any sampling rate you care to name. We could even implement it as the 'pass-through' model where you identify whether it's in the path or not.

Assuming you're not just trolling the thread, I'd be happy to take you up on that. Any circumstances up to repeatedly whacking me on the head with a rolled-up newspaper while I listen.

This word, 'resolution', I do not think it means what you think it means…
Old 24th April 2014
  #3692
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
OK - how would you interpret the words: ?
Science does not argue preference. It argues testable facts. Yes, you can scientifically test preference, but nothing talked about here comes within long-term communicator hailing distance, councillor.

Quote:
Nor you me. The thread is full of tricky debate and worse.
Your obscenely insulting insinuation is noted.
Quote:

I don't doubt that but customers will still need to buy Pono for it to be a success.
On that I frankly don't know what will happen, and I'm not even going to try to predict it.

They could make it a winner just by not hypercompressing the content.
Old 24th April 2014
  #3693
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
we've only heard from the commentators in the Pono video and ellisr63....I'd like to hear what 1000's of people think about Pono.
Yes lack of tests must be frustrating for some but I don't think anecdotes are a 'bad thing.'
How many people would it take to convince you to buy these:
Accustic Arts Silver Line -New Edition

If you are sane, it doesn't matter how many people tell you they sound awesome.
Old 24th April 2014
  #3694
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisj View Post
You know, I am reasonably sure that I could pass a double-blind test between 2" 15 ips master tape and 12 bit digital audio at any sampling rate you care to name. We could even implement it as the 'pass-through' model where you identify whether it's in the path or not.
I think that would be an interesting tests provided the music is constant and not allowed to fade out.

EDIT... if we had modern 12 bit converters to test.
Old 24th April 2014
  #3695
Lives for gear
 
3rd Degree's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
How many people would it take to convince you to buy these:
Accustic Arts Silver Line -New Edition

If you are sane, it doesn't matter how many people tell you they sound awesome.
I get the comparison but Pono is actually really affordable compared to similar things in the market. That's why I personally find the idea interesting with Pono. It's taking cues of some of these outrageously price products while keeping it around the price of what someone would pay for an MP3 player, well a bit more but not in a whole different league/price point.
Old 24th April 2014
  #3696
Lives for gear
 
Dpro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephi82 View Post
I am not going to call out, or insult, any particular posters in this thread, because we all have opinions and positions that we believe in.

However, I am someone who stands somewhere between a music lover/musician/ and consumer of recorded music and equipment

AND

a pro audio recordist, who has some experience and technical know how

What strikes me is

1) how poorly some audio pro posters understand how todays consumers listen to music, compared to how the pro audio posters do (which is naturally at the highest quality level, but of course because "we are vaunted audio pros and only have the best stuff")

2) How these same posters seemingly assume that the average consumer isnt quite smart enough to know that when they hear music playback that sounds " the best they ever heard" it's bull **** and a product of dastardly marketing.

This of course, has discouraged me about GEARSLUTZ to a great degree.

However, there are still many members of this forum who are brilliant audio pros who freely share with others in all threads, and who I look forward to learning further from in the future. It's clear, however, its not happenong in the thread!
In answer to point 1. It's possible you underestimate the pro audio people here. I also think you possibly have failed to understand something fundamental in the debate here.

We are not saying we are better, we are saying we have evidence that leads us to question the claims. Nothing superior just an innate desire for facts to back up the claims.

No one I think faults anyone for saying something sounds great. We are human some people like things others don't . We can accept that. The rub lies in the fact that this thread is a very debate about the sound quality of Pono and if it is for real.
At which point it crosses over into a situation where people need to show proof to back up their claims. Is that so hard for you to understand?

How many pages has this thread gone on for running in circles?Because one side shows evidence for their position and the other only gives anecdotes?

We accept that people have heard it and say it sounds great, but also giving the marketing we ask really does it?
No one has really shown it. No examples of Pono audio files against other format files. No ABX test reports. Just anecdotal claims of it sounds great.

What do we get for just asking for the kind of data we need? We get called all kinds of names, we get accused of crucifying for the sake of asking questions.

We get labeled just because we stand on the science side. You don't see us calling people names. Calling people stuff like a Ponophile. Yet we our called Ponophobes , Pono haters etc...

I don't think anyone here thinks they are superior to the average listener or consumer per se. We just can't go on the anecdotal word without hard evidence as engineers.

I was not going to post before your post because this thread has become tiring. It has nowhere to go without the evidence we ask for.
Old 24th April 2014
  #3697
Lives for gear
 
3rd Degree's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpro View Post
In answer to point 1. It's possible you underestimate the pro audio people here. I also think you possibly have failed to understand something fundamental in the debate here.

We are not saying we are better, we are saying we have evidence that leads us to question the claims. Nothing superior just an innate desire for facts to back up the claims.

No one I think faults anyone for saying something sounds great. We are human some people like things others don't . We can accept that. The rub lies in the fact that this thread is a very debate about the sound quality of Pono and if it is for real.
At which point it crosses over into a situation where people need to show proof to back up their claims. Is that so hard for you to understand?

How many pages has this thread gone on for running in circles?Because one side shows evidence for their position and the other only gives anecdotes?

We accept that people have heard it and say it sounds great, but also giving the marketing we ask really does it?
No one has really shown it. No examples of Pono audio files against other format files. No ABX test reports. Just anecdotal claims of it sounds great.

What do we get for just asking for the kind of data we need? We get called all kinds of names, we get accused of crucifying for the sake of asking questions.

We get labeled just because we stand on the science side. You don't see us calling people names. Calling people stuff like a Ponophile. Yet we our called Ponophobes , Pono haters etc...

I don't think anyone here thinks they are superior to the average listener or consumer per se. We just can't go on the anecdotal word without hard evidence as engineers.

I was not going to post before your post because this thread has become tiring. It has nowhere to go without the evidence we ask for.
Well, one big thing to take into account here is you have 3 different things going on with this device, that could be split up further. You have the actual hardware, and playback system. You have the file format. Then you have these masters that nobody really knows exactly what they are. This thing could be greatly better than alternatives based on the hardware alone. Having superior converters and headphones can be as important as anything, especially when compared to an iPod out the box.

Another thing is where many on this board may use the word "anecdotal" or the like, for the consumer, that's all reality, or educated opinion. For many consumers, are opinion is what they are looking for in an educated opinion as we are not their peers. We may have better knowledge but we also come off brash, arrogant, and a bit over the top to them when we speak to them like we speak to each other.

Going back to the "anecdotal" thing, perception trumps reality in any market place. We have the same thing going on every day here. Sure, some test some things but 99% of us will use our own ears and opinions we trust, even if it goes against a test we participated in and failed.

Case in point, I listened to a shootout involving a cheap Chinese condenser verses a U87. Now I didn't know that the Chinese condenser was processed and the U87 was not. My response was something to the extent of "I know B is the U87. The A file has everything I hate about Chinese LDCs, sounds cheap, harsh, and just needs a lot of work to make it fit". The file I talked negatively about is a U87. Did that make me uninterested in that U87, not at all. Some of the greatest recordings I have been involved with used the U87 and it's a great mic for what I need. I don't claim the test was rigged (though some did) or that it was unfair because I saw what I thought about the mic I really wished I owned and it was exactly opposite of what I want in a mic, as per my description. However, I know that in practice, this mic will work great, I have experienced it so that test is meaningless to me.

So that's me in the Pro Audio consumer market, the consumer electronic market needs less convincing than I and I convinced myself the opposite about how I truly feel and stand by my opinion/bias/experience.
Old 24th April 2014
  #3698
Lives for gear
 

I think some folks missed this article posted earlier where a listener compared a song on the pono to an mp3 on another player.
Inside Neil Young's Crowdfunded Quest To Fix Your Disastrous MP3 Situation ? Co.Labs ? code + community
Old 24th April 2014
  #3699
Lives for gear
 
paul brown's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
He is implying that Pono cannot sound as good as claimed because the science says so;
more like i was commenting on the under the sea metaphor when comparing playback at higher sample rates. you are twisting my response. the pono likely sounds great playing music (at its price-point). it is not the fact of higher sample rates that gives the quality. for them to sell the same music again but in a different format, that is what they need people to believe. i am applying the science to that claim.
Old 24th April 2014
  #3700
Gear Head
 
bandpass's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by michael cleary View Post
I think some folks missed this article posted earlier where a listener compared a song on the pono to an mp3 on another player.
From that article: "The device, still in alpha, isn't yet polished enough to let the public give it a whirl." 3 months for a production run is not atypical so they've still got a little time to finalize the design. I guess there might be some public demos in the summer.

Still skeptical here though, for many reasons; here's just one. Look where the blue iPod line on the graph is heading to be by the time Pono launches.
Old 24th April 2014
  #3701
Yeah, I've posted that already a few times.
The new music player is a smartphone or a tablet. Keep in contact with friends, or do your personal banking while listening to your music collection.
How many people want to carry a gadget that only plays music?
Old 24th April 2014
  #3702
Quote:
...The rhythmic tap of a tambourine. The subtle resonance of an acoustic guitar string between chords. It's these finer nuances that pop out, unencumbered by the digital compression. Even if they're audible on the MP3 version of the song, they're suddenly more noticeable. The details are crisp.

Picking these things out is also made easier by the fact that the mix of the song itself feels--at least in my brief testing--more spacious. Almost three-dimensional. Each instrument has more room to breathe. Some have commented that it sounds like you're standing in the recording studio with the musicians. That's a fair way to describe it...

...But Pono does sound different. It surfaces new things to the listener. As many have pointed out, the sound is "warm," not unlike the analog sound of high-quality vinyl. The results will undoubtedly vary from album to album and speaker to speaker, but on the whole it does sound fuller and more pure than the audio files we're used to.
Inside Neil Young's Crowdfunded Quest To Fix Your Disastrous MP3 Situation ? Co.Labs ? code + community
Old 24th April 2014
  #3703
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul brown View Post
more like i was commenting on the under the sea metaphor when comparing playback at higher sample rates. you are twisting my response. the pono likely sounds great playing music (at its price-point). it is not the fact of higher sample rates that gives the quality. for them to sell the same music again but in a different format, that is what they need people to believe. i am applying the science to that claim.
This is what I read: you've applied science to the claim that higher sample rates gives Pono it's quality and science shows this isn't correct. Is that right?
Old 24th April 2014
  #3704
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
This is what I read: you've applied science to the claim that higher sample rates gives Pono it's quality and science shows this isn't correct. Is that right?
http://www2.webster.edu/medialiterac...ALKARLROVE.pdf

What we see here is an attempt to (falsely) frame the opponent.
Old 24th April 2014
  #3705
Lives for gear
 
paul brown's Avatar
everything about this post concerns me. the choice of the word "disastrous" next to mp3. the idea that a bunch of journalists in a room are able to give an unbiased opinion. everything about the situation is designed to allow bias to run amok. i bet they could have played something of worse quality and still the expectation and hype in the room would have had people believing that it was better. the whole pono experience is starting to sound like a cult. i await the saviour of music. will he be naked...
Old 24th April 2014
  #3706
While I'm not as damning on Pono as others here, you are basing your whole platform on one blogger's comments. One person compared a Neil Young track between Pono and Spotify streaming to their iPhone. And they commented they could hear 'a difference'.
They also commented later in the blog that no members of the public had been exposed to Pono's sound, only a selection of fellow musicians.

Quote:
It's worth noting that the majority of people who have heard Pono to date are musicians. It's no accident. Young and Hamm have opted to market this an "artist-driven movement." That's a smart strategy, since people who spend their days in recording studios are going to appreciate the nuance of what's different about Pono. It also helps to have rock stars enthusiastically praising the product you're trying to launch. But there's no money changing hands here. That perk is a natural by-product of who founded the company.
This also means that the product is virtually untested among non-musicians, so it's hard to gauge how wide its appeal might be until units start shipping in October
Old 24th April 2014
  #3707
Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post
Science does not argue preference. It argues testable facts. Yes, you can scientifically test preference, but nothing talked about here comes within long-term communicator hailing distance, councillor.
Two points: one, as Pono isn't released yet and tests haven't begun the science isn't strong enough to support the claims that some are making in advance IMO; two, if many people anecdotally report that Pono sounds great then I'm going to listen even if the science says it shouldn't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post
Your obscenely insulting insinuation is noted.
As was yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post
...On that I frankly don't know what will happen, and I'm not even going to try to predict it.

They could make it a winner just by not hypercompressing the content.
Either way the consumer should be getting a better listening experience - that's no bad thing IMO.
Old 24th April 2014
  #3708
Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post
http://www2.webster.edu/medialiterac...ALKARLROVE.pdf

What we see here is an attempt to (falsely) frame the opponent.
...or is it a request to clarify what he says so there is no ambiguity?
Old 24th April 2014
  #3709
Lives for gear
 
paul brown's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
This is what I read: you've applied science to the claim that higher sample rates gives Pono it's quality and science shows this isn't correct. Is that right?
i haven't done anything to science. the science stands on its peer review and probability. i'm saying that this is another attempt by the record labels to sell back-catalogues. it is not the first attempt piggybacked onto some technical mix of mumbo-jumbo and fact. hopefully, it is their last dying attempt.
Old 24th April 2014
  #3710
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
as Pono isn't released yet and tests haven't begun the science isn't strong enough to support the claims that some are making in advance IMO
The differences between mp3, 44.1khz/16 bit and 192khz/24bit are already known.
Old 24th April 2014
  #3711
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
While I'm not as damning on Pono as others here, you are basing your whole platform on one blogger's comments. One person compared a Neil Young track between Pono and Spotify streaming to their iPhone. And they commented they could hear 'a difference'.
They also commented later in the blog that no members of the public had been exposed to Pono's sound, only a selection of fellow musicians.
I'm not basing my whole platform on one bloggers comments: I'm just quoting (without any comment) what his impression of Pono was. I'd say that was another positive review in addition to the comments in the Pono video and those of ellisr63.
Not all swans are white; I'm not making a case that Pono must sound good because of a handful of favourable comments - but they are favourable comments nonetheless.

Obviously in time many more people will get the chance to hear Pono - and test it. I'm not sure I buy the implication by some that the reason there are no controlled comparisons is because they have something to hide...that kind of supposition doesn't help...there could be other reasons too. Time will tell.
Old 24th April 2014
  #3712
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
The differences between mp3, 44.1khz/16 bit and 192khz/24bit are already known.
Does that support the claims Paul Brown was making?
Old 24th April 2014
  #3713
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
Does that support the claims Paul Brown was making?
I'm not speaking for anyone else.
The Pono people claim their player sounds as good as vinyl because it plays 192khz files.
We don't need new scientific research to study Pono as we already know what 192khz audio sounds like.
We know what mp3's sound like, what CD's at 44.1khz sound like and what 192khz through a high end audio converter sounds like.
Whether you think one sounds better than the other is another matter, but the opposition to Pono in this thread comes from those who don't believe 192khz sounds 'better' than CD quality. And you don't need new scientific research to prove otherwise (they say).
Old 24th April 2014
  #3714
Lives for gear
 
paul brown's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
Does that support the claims Paul Brown was making?
to clarify, you'd rather i used the whole body of scientific study over hundreds of years of development or a marketing video on which to base my opinion? come on, Arthur. by all means, assert that only a listening to the device can determine your own personal impression and experience of that device. BUT , they are using scientific terminology in the promotional video mixed with colourful metaphors and rock-star approval. we can question the science. they chose to include it. we can question the metaphors. we can question the opportunity for bias. we can also look at the trend in the music industry. the industry strangled by a cartel. they sell us the future so they can sell us the past...again.
Old 24th April 2014
  #3715
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul brown View Post
to clarify, you'd rather i used the whole body of scientific study over hundreds of years of development or a marketing video on which to base my opinion? come on, Arthur. by all means, assert that only a listening to the device can determine your own personal impression and experience of that device. BUT , they are using scientific terminology in the promotional video mixed with colourful metaphors and rock-star approval. we can question the science. they chose to include it. we can question the metaphors. we can question the opportunity for bias. we can also look at the trend in the music industry. the industry strangled by a cartel. they sell us the future so they can sell us the past...again.
Yes. That's a fair point you make but it isn't yet proven that Pono doesn't sound as good as is claimed...not yet, if ever. I don't agree with the conflation of Pono with ills in the market place though; one could make many arguments against valid, useful products on that basis.
Old 24th April 2014
  #3716
Lives for gear
 
paul brown's Avatar
if Neil Young is so concerned about the listeners' experience of his music, why has this happened? the 1983 cd release has more dynamic range than his DVD-A release of 2002.
Attached Thumbnails
Launch of Pono-screen-shot-2014-04-24-10.22.18-am.jpg  
Old 24th April 2014
  #3717
Gear Guru
 
UnderTow's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephi82 View Post
2) How these same posters seemingly assume that the average consumer isnt quite smart enough to know that when they hear music playback that sounds " the best they ever heard" it's bull **** and a product of dastardly marketing.
Based on many posts in this thread from audio engineers, even plugin developers, I'm really not so sure!

Alistair
Old 24th April 2014
  #3718
Gear Nut
 

its a really cool thread... people have their opinions! the usuall consumer dont care at all... they never did! great that pono is targeting that way and its defently a good thing for people who actually care.
if you listen to 40+ man classical recording, with the right speakers there is good market as well for serveral other high end audio people!
regarding the masses, nobody will ever care... they listen to youtube on their smartphone, spotify or whatever will come up... and that will defently never change in any way!
there is a difference between 192 and 44.1 but a 0815 pop record or urban record, made ITB or on a mpc you wont hear any diffrence... using a lot of mics in a big hall, sure there will be a difference!
i enjoy reading this thread a lot! go ahead and argue it out but at the end of the day it does not matter at all in my opinion.
Old 24th April 2014
  #3719
Gear Nut
 

ups doublepost
Old 24th April 2014
  #3720
Lives for gear
 
O.F.F.'s Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1070 View Post
...but a 0815 pop record...
You german?
Topic:
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