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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 22nd April 2014
  #3631
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
it most certainly is and it is quite distinct from unscientific
Ok, though not universally accepted, it apparently is a word. I was wrong! OMG.

It is not a word according to spell check.
Old 22nd April 2014
  #3632
Lives for gear
 
doncaparker's Avatar
 

This thread started 6 weeks ago today. That was 42 days ago. There are over 3,600 posts in this thread. That is an average of over 85 posts per day, and about 600 posts per week.

The Internet is a wonderful creation. It allows us all to communicate with each other in ways that never existed before.

There is something about it that reminds me of the Babel fish, one of my favorite creations of Douglas Adams:

The Babel fish is small, yellow, leech-like, and probably the oddest thing in the universe. It feeds on brain wave energy, absorbing all unconscious frequencies and then excreting telepathically a matrix formed from the conscious frequencies and nerve signals picked up from the speech centres of the brain, the practical upshot of which is that if you stick one in your ear, you can instantly understand anything said to you in any form of language: the speech you hear decodes the brain wave matrix.

**********

[T]he poor Babel fish, by effectively removing all barriers to communication between different cultures and races, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of creation.

Just something that runs through my mind as I click through my Participated Threads, see this one still chugging along, and stop in from time to time to see how the discussion has evolved.
Old 22nd April 2014
  #3633
Quote:
Just something that runs through my mind as I click through my Participated Threads, see this one still chugging along, and stop in from time to time to see how the discussion has evolved.
For gosh sake, don't bring that topic into this.


heh
Old 22nd April 2014
  #3634
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Actually I was doing a scientific analysis of the word and its official acceptance seems to be in question. heh
Hardly. You were nitpicking due to a lack of any other ammo.
Old 22nd April 2014
  #3635
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Ok, though not universally accepted, it apparently is a word.
universal acceptance notwithstanding, it is clear what the word means and how that is distinct from UNscientific. As you of all people should know!
Old 22nd April 2014
  #3636
Lives for gear
 
TREMORS's Avatar
The level of hypocrisy and psychological projection by some is pretty amusing.
Old 22nd April 2014
  #3637
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
But obviously "filter slope and other filter related issues" effect the sound in the range we do hear, or Lavry wouldn't be concerned about them, and conclude that 60k is the lowest range to work with to minimize any possible audible issues.
Or, you could use some of the people he discussed this with when he decided that.

I happen to know one such person, I see it in the mirror every morning.

And I will repeat what I've said: There is potential for mechanism, but there is, as of yet, no positive evidence, and some not terribly convincing negative evidence.

Here's a bit of data for you:

If you make a filter that rolls off between 20 and 22kHz, the main lobe of that filter is wider than the main lobe of the narrowest cochlear filter (we're talking time domain here) in a normal ear.

If you go 20 to 24, it's almost the same.

If you go 20 to 32, for instance, there is just no chance that nonlinear effects are going to be involved.

Hence my off-the-cuff choice of 64kHz, which would also include kids and most dogs, just for completeness.
Old 22nd April 2014
  #3638
Lives for gear
 
Dpro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephi82 View Post
The title of the thread is "Launch of PONO", not

"why there is no scientific proof that Hi Res files can be differentiated from CD's"

However, I certainly accept that the discussion on formats is one of the many things relevant to the original thread title.

The poster who reported his experience with a demo of PONO wasn't making a claim that he was engaged in a scientific test.

He never said that he believes that the quality of his listening experience was due to it being a hi res file.

He simply said its the best listening experience he has had.

This guy was then crucified by you because of his "methodology" and you go on to say "His isolated opinion is less than useful to the discussion because he made NO direct comparisons of Pono to anything else!"

I say Horse Hockey!

Of course he's comparing it to "something else", that being whatever playback device(s) he has been using all along.

How consumers perceive and experience the sound of a PONO, without rigorous scientific controls will have much impact on the "launch of PONO".
Oh please come off your high horse. The man was not crucified. Questioned yes, informed he might have been mislead. Due to lack of experience, that could lead to a failure to question their statements,yes. Nothing more nothing less. He was not personally put down or ridiculed.
None cried to question that he thought it sounded great. They only questioned the process.

The only mistake he could possibly have made was posting in this thread without data to back up what says he heard. In the context of the course of the thread,what has been asked for is hard data rather than anecdotal evidence. Seeing as he stated it anecdotally it was questioned. He was not again I repeat for emphasis to you and other crucified.

In the course of this discussion I have seen one person on the side of possible benefits of 192k in the case of Pono try to offer up hard evidence. That would be Chris from Airwindows. From a debate point of view wether or not you believe his point at least he is following the rules of proper debate and proper science.
The rest have pretty much offered up anecdotal evidence at best. On the opposite side the anti 192k camp has spit out many links and scientific reports to back up their position.
Whether you choose to believe them or not. In the terms of a debate they have clearly won and most of the opposition is grasping at the straws of anecdotal ism to make their failed point.

Which leads to the conclusion that until the Pono people offer up hard evidence to back up their claims? They have not proven anything provable in debate or science.

Which pretty much puts this thread to rest until Pono serves data as evidence.
Old 22nd April 2014
  #3639
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
I notice this interchange between a deeply experienced, rather legendary expert on the intersection of technology and human perception with four decades of deep experience in technology design for Bell Labs and others and... a guy we're not sure what he does or what he's done yet who continues to make pronouncements of what he claims are facts that fly in the face of accepted scientific understanding. I find it troubling that so many people in this forum don't see 'the problem' implicit in these exhaltations of personal fabulism and idiosyncratic, evidentiarily unsupported speculation.
This is the problem with the internet, it has no fact checker or editor.

Many people roam the innertubes just to spread nonsense, because they can. I think that the net result is that people are much, much less educated, and much more prone to spouting insults and nonsense simply because they've learned that they can "win" by playing to the lurkers, and using any kind of rhetorical cheat they might be able to come up with.

This has little to do with Pono, of course. Marketing is marketing.
Old 22nd April 2014
  #3640
That's the internet and forums.
Everyone is apparently equal. Experience is perceived as set in old ways of thinking as much as it's seen as streetsmart or worldwise.
Old 23rd April 2014
  #3641
Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post
This is the problem with the internet, it has no fact checker or editor.

Many people roam the innertubes just to spread nonsense, because they can. I think that the net result is that people are much, much less educated, and much more prone to spouting insults and nonsense simply because they've learned that they can "win" by playing to the lurkers, and using any kind of rhetorical cheat they might be able to come up with.

This has little to do with Pono, of course. Marketing is marketing.




You know, the whole time I was growing up, people kept telling me I had problems dealing with 'authority.' And maybe I did in a lot of ways, but I did learn to make a very important distinction: between those who hold positions of 'authority' and those who derive genuine authority from their intellect, knowledge, and accomplishments. Of course, I'd never embarrass anyone in this thread with direct praise of that nature. But I think it's good when those folks can feel comfortable sharing their knowledge and their thinking.

And with that, I'm out to go play some guitar.
Old 23rd April 2014
  #3642
S21
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S21's Avatar
 

One of the aviation forums has a specific warning about sciolists: sciolist: definition of sciolist in Oxford dictionary (British & World English)

It's nice that there is a word for something so widespread.
Old 23rd April 2014
  #3643
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3rd Degree's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
That's the internet and forums.
Everyone is apparently equal. Experience is perceived as set in old ways of thinking as much as it's seen as streetsmart or worldwise.
Honestly, this board is pretty respectful in terms of "experts" or "high level experience" users. When you get into subjective content, opinions, and the like, people tend to gravitate to the ideology that fits their own perceptions.
Old 23rd April 2014
  #3644
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by S21 View Post
One of the aviation forums has a specific warning about sciolists: sciolist: definition of sciolist in Oxford dictionary (British & World English)

It's nice that there is a word for something so widespread.

Well, in aviation that could result in something really, really bad.
Old 23rd April 2014
  #3645
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Ephi82's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpro View Post
Oh please come off your high horse. The man was not crucified. Questioned yes, informed he might have been mislead. Due to lack of experience, that could lead to a failure to question their statements,yes. Nothing more nothing less. He was not personally put down or ridiculed.
None cried to question that he thought it sounded great. They only questioned the process.

The only mistake he could possibly have made was posting in this thread without data to back up what says he heard. In the context of the course of the thread,what has been asked for is hard data rather than anecdotal evidence. Seeing as he stated it anecdotally it was questioned. He was not again I repeat for emphasis to you and other crucified.

In the course of this discussion I have seen one person on the side of possible benefits of 192k in the case of Pono try to offer up hard evidence. That would be Chris from Airwindows. From a debate point of view wether or not you believe his point at least he is following the rules of proper debate and proper science.
The rest have pretty much offered up anecdotal evidence at best. On the opposite side the anti 192k camp has spit out many links and scientific reports to back up their position.
Whether you choose to believe them or not. In the terms of a debate they have clearly won and most of the opposition is grasping at the straws of anecdotal ism to make their failed point.

Which leads to the conclusion that until the Pono people offer up hard evidence to back up their claims? They have not proven anything provable in debate or science.

Which pretty much puts this thread to rest until Pono serves data as evidence.
I am not on a high horse and I am not arguing sampling rate, and neither was the person reporting his experience with PONO. Read my recent post again.

For some reason, you and several others want to make sample rate a battlefield, or a center a debate.

Quite truthfully, I am ambivalent about the issue. I know that I have heard some terrific sounding music at 24/96 etc. but based on the discussions and data about ABX testing etc, I wonder if my experience was a more a result of great mastering? What leaves me somewhat confused is the complete penetration of 24/96+ files a standard in audio recording? Oh well.

All that doesnt matter because in the end, and as I said, its possible that PONO can put out the best sound a lot of people have ever heard.

Cheap earbuds, a cell phone with a crappy headphone amp, an inexpensive DAC and a brickwalled master downconverted to MP3 320 is not much competition for PONO, if it is all they say it is. (perhaps short of attribution from hi res files)
Old 23rd April 2014
  #3646
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Dpro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephi82 View Post
I am not on a high horse and I am not arguing sampling rate, and neither was the person reporting his experience with PONO. Read my recent post again.

For some reason, you and several others want to make sample rate a battlefield, or a center a debate.

Quite truthfully, I am ambivalent about the issue. I know that I have heard some terrific sounding music at 24/96 etc. but based on the discussions and data about ABX testing etc, I wonder if my experience was a more a result of great mastering? What leaves me somewhat confused is the complete penetration of 24/96+ files a standard in audio recording? Oh well.

All that doesnt matter because in the end, and as I said, its possible that PONO can put out the best sound a lot of people have ever heard.

Cheap earbuds, a cell phone with a crappy headphone amp, an inexpensive DAC and a brickwalled master downconverted to MP3 320 is not much competition for PONO, if it is all they say it is. (perhaps short of attribution from hi res files)
I am not making it into a battlefield. I was pointing out the issues at hand behind the lack of proof for Pono. I was also pointing out that the man was not crucified to use your words.
I said it before and I will say it again I am not against Pono. I am against the crazy marketing claims with lack of proof . No one has put up empirical evidenced to prove the claims.
I earlier post the story about my father who pioneered Silicon in a world of Germanium. When people were having a hard time working with Silicon and being able to get results. My father succeeded where others had failed and ushered in the Silicon era, which everything in modern electronics relies on. The point being perhaps the people behind the converters on Pono, which use apodizing filters had indeed reached a milestone in apodizing filter development. That could be a game changer.

The problem is the Pono people are not presenting any evidence to back up their claims. Plus the the fact that even if apodizing filters were miraculously working creating a great sounding playback,is it really all that better than 24/48 or 24/96? It would have to be better by leaps and bounds to make a significant difference. Compared to what we already have.

Anecdotal evidence of someone saying I have heard it and it sounds better. Or it's the best thing I have ever heard is not enough proof.

All most of us here want is actual data to prove it. Which so far has not been presented.
Old 23rd April 2014
  #3647
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephi82 View Post
For some reason, you and several others want to make sample rate a battlefield, or a center a debate.
WHAT?? did you watch the video that is linked to in the Original Post? The people who are making and selling Pono are the ones who have decided to make "Sample Rate" the battlefield. 96k? Still underwater!!

Of course the people that they are selling TO have not a clue what sample rates even ARE or what they mean, or how digital audio works. The "bigger number" argument may well work on them, but it doesn't work on people who have actually blind-compared the sample rates.
Quote:
All that doesnt matter because in the end, and as I said, its possible that PONO can put out the best sound a lot of people have ever heard.
completely unnecessary. Pono needs to only convince people to believe it is the best sound they have ever heard.
Quote:
Cheap earbuds, a cell phone with a crappy headphone amp, an inexpensive DAC and a brickwalled master downconverted to MP3 320 is not much competition for PONO, if it is all they say it is. (perhaps short of attribution from hi res files)
It is totally possible to buy a Pono, hook it up to cheap earbuds or a crappy amp and speaker system in your car and play a "24/192" master that is actually a 16/44 master that was upconverted to allow the claim of "high-res".

I submit that if you FIRST got the better amp and better speakers and paid more attention to which masters you are listening to, you would have 99 if not 100 percent of your proposed 'benefit' of Pono right there!

In this view, Pono is like "Stone Soup". An excuse to upgrade everything else, which of course is something you could do without buying a Pono!

Quote:
The Story of Stone Soup
Once upon a time, somewhere in post-war Eastern Europe, there was a great famine in which people jealously hoarded whatever food they could find, hiding it even from their friends and neighbors. One day a wandering soldier came into a village and began asking questions as if he planned to stay for the night.

"There's not a bite to eat in the whole province," he was told. "Better keep moving on."

"Oh, I have everything I need," he said. "In fact, I was thinking of making some stone soup to share with all of you." He pulled an iron cauldron from his wagon, filled it with water, and built a fire under it. Then, with great ceremony, he drew an ordinary-looking stone from a velvet bag and dropped it into the water.

By now, hearing the rumor of food, most of the villagers had come to the square or watched from their windows. As the soldier sniffed the "broth" and licked his lips in anticipation, hunger began to overcome their skepticism.

"Ahh," the soldier said to himself rather loudly, "I do like a tasty stone soup. Of course, stone soup with cabbage -- that's hard to beat."

Soon a villager approached hesitantly, holding a cabbage he'd retrieved from its hiding place, and added it to the pot. "Capital!" cried the soldier. "You know, I once had stone soup with cabbage and a bit of salt beef as well, and it was fit for a king."

The village butcher managed to find some salt beef . . . and so it went, through potatoes, onions, carrots, mushrooms, and so on, until there was indeed a delicious meal for all.
Old 23rd April 2014
  #3648
mixmixmix
Guest
"A Requiem for Pono" - Somber music for the stillborn child. Delivered as 44.1 /16 wav file. Rest in peace, sweet child. We were unable to save you.
Old 23rd April 2014
  #3649
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by mixmixmix View Post
"A Requiem for Pono" - Somber music for the stillborn child. Delivered as 44.1 /16 wav file. Rest in peace, sweet child. We were unable to save you.
Heheh... Wading through hundreds of posts was almost worth it to read this!
Old 23rd April 2014
  #3650
Gear Head
 
bandpass's Avatar
 

Here's another view in the outside world (spoiler: he doesn't approve).

Old 23rd April 2014
  #3651
Quote:
Originally Posted by bandpass View Post
Here's another view in the outside world (spoiler: he doesn't approve).
Not surprised he doesn't approve: in his opinion, Pono is to blame for the pre-existing state of the music industry; the press conference was in the morning; and, John Hamm isn't Don Draper. How disappointing. Has he actually heard it yet? Personally I'd value one actual user report over any lines of innuendo.

Ponophobia - the irrational fear of Pono - is born.
Old 23rd April 2014
  #3652
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
Not surprised he doesn't approve: in his opinion, Pono is to blame for the pre-existing state of the music industry
Not really, just that Pono is simply "more of the same" of the pre-existing state of the music industry. I don't see where he is saying Pono has traveled into the past and created the situation we see today.

But the time-travel angle kind of reminds me of the people here who have similarly time traveled into the future and seen the "better world" that Pono is going to create for us all.



Quote:
Meanwhile, most up and coming artists are less concerned with selling higher quality recordings than selling any records at all.
Old 23rd April 2014
  #3653
Lives for gear
 

That Greg Bouchard's article got some really heated replies.. Best one was "I couldn't even read this long article because it made no sense. MUSIC SOUND BETTER = HAPPY = I'll BUY = F*** EVERYTHING ELSE."
Old 23rd April 2014
  #3654
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
Not really, just that Pono is simply "more of the same" of the pre-existing state of the music industry. I don't see where he is saying Pono has traveled into the past and created the situation we see today.

But the time-travel angle kind of reminds me of the people here who have similarly time traveled into the future and seen the "better world" that Pono is going to create for us all.
Nah - I don't buy any of that marketing BS (from anyone) or the arguments against it: Pono, if it sounds as good as is reported by listeners is just another audio player/store that will offer subtle improvements in sound (to an experienced ear) or a moderate improvement to 'inexperienced' listeners...that's my best guess given the info available. Subtle doesn't necessarily mean that it won't have an exponential effect on the quality of the listeners experience though.

What could be 'revolutionary' is the audio ecosystem; if Pono music is really as heard in the studio then that would represent a paradigm shift. The answer is in the listening.
Old 23rd April 2014
  #3655
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Why do people sell expensive wines even though they can't tell the difference?
Actually they can. I organise blind wine tastings on a regular basis.

Give someone two glasses of wine. Let then taste wine A and wine B at will. Give them glass X and ask if it contains either wine A or wine B. Almost everyone, almost every time, will get it right.

They may lack the vocabulary to describe the difference, they may lack the experience to identify the grape, region, vintage etc, they may well even prefer the taste of the less expensive but they will for sure be able to distinguish one from another.

When comparing codecs or audio gear (transducers excluded) on the other hand they almost certainly cannot.

That's the point. You may think the price premium for fine wine is excessive, you might even like cheap wine but you can tell one from another with relative ease. That does not apply to audio gear. At all.
Old 23rd April 2014
  #3656
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paul brown's Avatar
you'd think that if the music listening public was really concerned about listening at higher quality, it would be demonstrated by headphone sales. without the knowledge of hi-res, better headphones are an available way for the concerned public to improve the listening experience. a quick look at the best-selling headphones on amazon shows what the public is choosing. the move towards wireless/bluetooth headphones (beats, etc) sells the fusion of technology, fashion, culture. it could be said that music has become more about selling those three factors than an expression of emotion set free into the world as a song. on the wave of dynamic range...
Old 23rd April 2014
  #3657
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonaldDumsfeld View Post
...That does not apply to audio gear. At all.
I'm pretty sure I can tell different preamps apart...at least in the GS audio tests.
Old 23rd April 2014
  #3658
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul brown View Post
you'd think that if the music listening public was really concerned about listening at higher quality, it would be demonstrated by headphone sales. without the knowledge of hi-res, better headphones are an available way for the concerned public to improve the listening experience. a quick look at the best-selling headphones on amazon shows what the public is choosing. the move towards wireless/bluetooth headphones (beats, etc) sells the fusion of technology, fashion, culture. it could be said that music has become more about selling those three factors than an expression of emotion set free into the world as a song. on the wave of dynamic range...
That's a valid point but not really argument against higher-quality music...sure you need a good listening environment, good playback facilities but also good music too.
Old 23rd April 2014
  #3659
Airwindows
 
chrisj's Avatar
Wait, what, Led Zeppelin edition? (!!!)
*google* looks like they're just doing high resolution Zeppelin. They don't have to be working with Pono for that to work. All it has to be is 24/96 and it'll play right into the Pono averaging technique, trading off inaudible 'marketing frequencies' for better depth and personality in the range we can hear.

I concede that people feeding bluetooth headphones with Ponos are fools, but I'm pretty sure most 'boutique headphones' like Beats are wired, passive transducers. Pono's going to show all of those off bigtime. An analog stage with beefy coupling and power supply caps is going to have an iron grip on the overblown bass of the Beats. We know the chips will be up to the task because that's part of the 'it's all the same' argument: the chips these days aren't the bottleneck. If you've got great conversion and great chip amplification the bottleneck is the caps and such in the analog stage. Bob O. can confirm that, I think, it's commonly an oversight/tradeoff. (I agree with that point of view wholeheartedly)

It is fascinating to me how many people are prepared to say Pono will fail BECAUSE untutored listeners will not be blown away by a difference in sound. The reaction of 'blown away by the sound' can be triggered by overall goodness combined with more fugitive impressions being right. When we discover a new thing, we tend to get excited and more open to untrustworthy, fugitive impressions, to the point of saying 'this is incredibly obvious!' when we're talking about the combination of the thing being observed and our own fully-engaged state. Then, the next day, not paying attention, we might easily no longer be able to tell a difference, but who cares about our least sensitive moments when we're not engaged with the music experience? We're not playing and mixing and mastering for that (unless we're doing Loudness War elevator music).

I'd happily bet money that 9 out of 10 untutored listeners hearing Pono for the first time, over wired headphones, are going to be impressed. If you require those people to be listening to 16/44 loudness war CDs over the Pono, not so much. The combination of actually good remastering and the hardware performance will really startle and please people.

I totally sympathize with the objections to the 1/8" minijack, but get real. How many people have any form of music system that works on a STEREO XLR connector? I could see RCA jacks (and a breakout connector is going to be obligatory here as people will be driving amps and speakers with these) but the 1/8" is going to be sturdier, and you can't get around the practicality issue. It's sad that it has to be a headphone jack, but… it has to be a headphone jack. That's not even debatable.
Old 23rd April 2014
  #3660
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paul brown's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
That's a valid point but not really argument against higher-quality music...sure you need a good listening environment, good playback facilities but also good music too.
i'm just interested if the public are really interested. they could listen to wavs through great headphones if they were searching for better fidelity.
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