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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 21st April 2014
  #3511
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elan View Post
... the best scientists I've known are the ones that continuously doubt the results they are getting and always check them with real word experience, their senses and so on...
Old 21st April 2014
  #3512
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My car hard drive has 1489 tracks on it, every one of them is 44.1/16. Every other Sunday I drive to Duluth to visit my daughter in treatment, it is 3 hours each way.

All I do is listen to these tracks. I've heard some of them all my life. I know exactly how they sound on vinyl. I know how they sound on cassette. And CD, and MP3, some of them on SACD. I would love to take a test, because I could tell you in 5 seconds exactly which one I was listening to.
Old 21st April 2014
  #3513
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
My car hard drive has 1489 tracks on it, every one of them is 44.1/16. Every other Sunday I drive to Duluth to visit my daughter in treatment, it is 3 hours each way.

All I do is listen to these tracks. I've heard some of them all my life. I know exactly how they sound on vinyl. I know how they sound on cassette. And CD, and MP3, some of them on SACD. I would love to take a test, because I could tell you in 5 seconds exactly which one I was listening to.
is your ability to make those comparisons because you have a phonograph and an SACD player in your car?

or is it because your brain is capable of "compensating for" the differences between your car's speakers and acoustics vs the speakers and acoustics where you listen to the other stuff?

Just so you know, that test you would 'love to take' will probably all be in one room on one set of speakers. I am sure nobody doubts you can hear the LP's surface noise and grit. If you believe you can hear SACD vs CD, that's great, but please THINK for a few seconds before you present your anecdotes as "facts" that everyone else should take your word for it.

You give a big thumbs up to elan's definition of "science" but both of you keep conveniently leaving out the part where the scientist has to eliminate variables. No scientist can be so "open" that he relies SOLELY on his "experiences" and skips the part where no cheating is allowed.
Old 21st April 2014
  #3514
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq;10046587

or is it because [B
your brain [/B] is capable of "compensating for" the differences between your car's speakers and acoustics vs the speakers and acoustics where you listen to the other stuff?

No, it isn't, I've listened to to all the formats on many different speakers over many years, as well as many different headphones. Some in a car, some in a house.

In fact I'll point out the difference on a boat.
Or even with a goat.
I'll tell you in the rain.
And on a train.
Old 21st April 2014
  #3515
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by elan View Post
[min 25 and something "70% of our brain activity is busy on visual information when the eyes are open"
Not for blind people.

You're really stretching initially questionable data way, way too far, even before one accounts for plasticity of cognition in blind people.

Seems to me that you're trying to bend the data to a point that it doesn't make, here.
Old 21st April 2014
  #3516
j_j
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
No, it isn't, I've listened to to all the formats on many different speakers over many years, as well as many different headphones. Some in a car, some in a house.

In fact I'll point out the difference on a boat.
Or even with a goat.
I'll tell you in the rain.
And on a train.
Have you any idea if the mix is same on all these formats?
Old 21st April 2014
  #3517
j_j
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duplicate?
Old 21st April 2014
  #3518
j_j
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duplicate?
Old 21st April 2014
  #3519
j_j
Lives for gear
Ok, something hung here. I hope there's no more of these appearing!
Old 21st April 2014
  #3520
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Elan, I just go back to the fact that a double blind test will tell me everything I need to know about an acoustic guitar.
Nobody I've seen has made that absurd claim.

As to the comments about vision, you've completely misappropriated data that shows nothing like what you suggest, and that ignores cognative plasticity completely.
Old 21st April 2014
  #3521
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpro View Post
Are you an engineer? See as I am and this is the first time I have heard of such a thing as a mix being modified for the imperfections of a CD. Which sounds like like pure marketing BS.

In fact I would go as fas saying that whoever said this if they are an audio engineer have some very big misconceptions of basic processes . The only thing that would happen is conversion to 16/44.1.
I know JJ indeed asked about this as well. The only reason I am speaking up is I find it hard to believe a audio engineer would let someone say what they told you. Definitely without questioning what they meant and asking for a clear explanation.

I will add I have been reading this thread the whole time. I am a fan of audio in non lossy forms I also feel 24 bit is a good thing . I do not believe 192k is needed for great sounding audio based on what I have heard and studying the science behind digital audio . As well as understanding the limits of Human hearing. Now in all of these I give JJ great credence in this thread .
No I am not an engineer. I was strictly saying what I remember from the demo. Maybe I didn't understand the recording process they do when they do what they do for the Pono. I am in no ways trying to misinterpret what was said during the demo.
Old 21st April 2014
  #3522
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
You don't have any idea what you're talking about, do you?

I don't mean that in a mean way, but you don't seem to have any idea what those words that you are using even mean.
I do not take your response in a mean way at all. I am not an Engineer, professional musician, or any have anything to do with the Pro music industry. I went to the GTG to listen to a system, and was treated to a demo of Pono. I tried to relay what I heard in the demo. If I am not saying it correctly I am sorry. You can disregard whatever you like about what I said... I was only passing on my comments about the demo.
Old 21st April 2014
  #3523
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephi82 View Post
Are you an audio engineer? (I'm curious, not looking an "angle" in the debate)

What do you believe were the reasons why, what you heard, sounded so good?
I am not an engineer or have anything to do with the Audio Industry other than enjoying good music and movies.

So I guess from a completely uneducated background in the Music Industry... I would think that they either mix from the master to make it sound better or the DAC they are using is the key... Maybe it is both.
Old 21st April 2014
  #3524
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post
So, should we make a player that does processing that mimics LP and tape distortions (without the added random noise, pops, and clicks), and then adds those to the digital output?

What do you think? :p
I think that would be cool tbh.
Old 21st April 2014
  #3525
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post
Have you any idea if the mix is same on all these formats?
Old 21st April 2014
  #3526
Well albums have been remixed and/or remastered for CD.
Old 21st April 2014
  #3527
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Well albums have been remixed and/or remastered for CD.
Most of the CD's I made myself from records.
Old 21st April 2014
  #3528
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post
I am not an engineer or have anything to do with the Audio Industry other than enjoying good music and movies.

So I guess from a completely uneducated background in the Music Industry... I would think that they either mix from the master to make it sound better or the DAC they are using is the key... Maybe it is both.
See now here in lies the problem and the rub. Without the educated background or knowledge they could blow anything up your ass and you would not really know If it's true. (Excuse my French if it offends anyone)
It cracks me up that the people speaking up to having actually heard these devices? None are known to be audio engineers or producers.

Perhaps I am wrong but one would think their names would being trumpeted here as some kind of validation.
Old 21st April 2014
  #3529
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Most of the CD's I made myself from records.

So when you say you can hear a difference between vinyl, cassette and CD, you mean you took vinyl albums and recorded them to cassette and burned them to CD.
Old 21st April 2014
  #3530
j_j
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
So, then, you have no idea if it's the same master, or the same mix, or whatever?

Or did you make them yourselves? Have you checked your gain structure throughout?

Or, if you made them yourselves, do you have any idea what filtering you put them through? Did you do as precise a copy as you could do? Did you ride gain?

What did you do?

Or do you just not want to tell us?

ETA: Are you going to tell me then that your vinyl, cassette, and burnt CD's all have the same level and frequency response? Got some evidence for that one?
Old 21st April 2014
  #3531
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
So when you say you can hear a difference between vinyl, cassette and CD, you mean you took vinyl albums and recorded them to cassette and burned them to CD.
Yeah, I'd say at least 2 of those 3 had better sound different if that's what he did. Depending on gain settings, all 3 might stand out, too.
Old 21st April 2014
  #3532
Well the cassette recorder would impart a flavour.
Possibly CD burning software too. The deck the vinyl was played back on (in a major way).
But it's all the same master source (the vinyl record) so each copy (cassette and CD) is a generation removed from the original.
Nothing like comparing an album released on vinyl with an album released on CD I would say.
Old 21st April 2014
  #3533
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Well the cassette recorder would impart a flavour.
Possibly CD burning software too. The deck the vinyl was played back on (in a major way).
But it's all the same master source (the vinyl record) so each copy (cassette and CD) is a generation removed from the original.
Nothing like comparing an album released on vinyl with an album released on CD I would say.
Not in the least, and neither is a useful comparison of the media. So it goes.
Old 21st April 2014
  #3534
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Most of the CD's I made myself from records.
when you go in to take that blind test that you would "love to take", they will not be playing you home-rips. Unlike you, the test givers will know for certain that the same master is being used.

In the above-referenced AES tests, a simple 44/16 "digital bottleneck" was inserted into the path from a high-resolution source. This eliminates all the variables that you don't think are important, like different players, different speakers, different rooms, different levels, different filtering, copying errors and so on.

allowing them to focus on the one subject they are trying to study- whether the sample rates themselves are responsible for different sound. It's no so much that you did not do this yourself that is annoying people. It is your refusal to even acknowledge that these variables exist and are clouding the value of your "testing" for people who are Not You.
Old 21st April 2014
  #3535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpro View Post
See now here in lies the problem and the rub. Without the educated background or knowledge they could blow anything up your ass and you would not really know If it's true. (Excuse my French if it offends anyone)
It cracks me up that the people speaking up to having actually heard these devices? None are known to be audio engineers or producers.

Perhaps I am wrong but one would think their names would being trumpeted here as some kind of validation.
I get it.

This guy is just a rube consumer and doesn't have the training to know any better. How dare he think that its the best music recording playback he's ever heard!

Thank god we have people like you to protect the music consumer.

Get off your pedestal for one minute and just consider the possibility that the poster's experience was real to him. Maybe because it was a great master and the best playback system he's been exposed to to date?
Old 21st April 2014
  #3536
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post
So, then, you have no idea if it's the same master, or the same mix, or whatever?

Or did you make them yourselves? Have you checked your gain structure throughout?

Or, if you made them yourselves, do you have any idea what filtering you put them through? Did you do as precise a copy as you could do? Did you ride gain?

What did you do?

Or do you just not want to tell us?

ETA: Are you going to tell me then that your vinyl, cassette, and burnt CD's all have the same level and frequency response? Got some evidence for that one?

Ok, well I really planned on going through this thread and copying all the reasons given why any difference in formats I notice must be because:

A
B
C
D
E
F
G
H
I
J
K

But quite frankly I just don't have time.

A thousand things that would have caused me to hear something different between two different schemes for recording and playing back music. EVERYTHING you can think of except the possibility that THEY ACTUALLY SOUND DIFFERENT.

Proving that digital 44.1/16 recording is the ultimate way to record music, and will NEVER be bested is like a religion to you guys. The zeal with which you support this contention is complete lunacy.
Old 21st April 2014
  #3537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Well the cassette recorder would impart a flavour.
Everything imparts a flavour. When sitting in front of the speakers, the angle of your head imparts a flavor, quite large in fact. The size/shape of your ears. No question, Obama's ears have a much different frequency response than yours.


Quote:
Possibly CD burning software too.
Which I was going to point out as a flaw in the ABX test posted. If you inject a/d d/a into the stream, you may have a different result compared to storing a file for later playback. I would have thought you guys that nitpick every last detail to support your argument would have caught this. But then pointing that out would invalidate the entire test.

Quote:
The deck the vinyl was played back on (in a major way).
Comparing the same record on that same deck to the CD copy? How?

Quote:
But it's all the same master source (the vinyl record) so each copy (cassette and CD) is a generation removed from the original.
Generation? If the CD recording process gives you a perfect, identical replay, as contended, (actually screamed from the top of the highest mountain), how can this be a generation?


Quote:
Nothing like comparing an album released on vinyl with an album released on CD I would say.
I've got that too. Plenty of store bought CD's compared to the same record. The result is the same. CD sounds like CD. That fact that you can't hear it doesn't mean that nobody else can.




Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
when you go in to take that blind test that you would "love to take", they will not be playing you home-rips. Unlike you, the test givers will know for certain that the same master is being used.
Same master? If I copy a record, the record is the master. Comparing master to CD copy. They should sound 100% identical, right?
Old 21st April 2014
  #3538
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Ok, well I really planned on going through this thread and copying all the reasons given why any difference in formats I notice must be because:

A
B
C
D
E
F
G
H
I
J
K

But quite frankly I just don't have time.

A thousand things that would have caused me to hear something different between two different schemes for recording and playing back music. EVERYTHING you can think of except the possibility that THEY ACTUALLY SOUND DIFFERENT.

Proving that digital 44.1/16 recording is the ultimate way to record music, and will NEVER be bested is like a religion to you guys. The zeal with which you support this contention is complete lunacy.
+1
Old 21st April 2014
  #3539
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post
I am not an engineer or have anything to do with the Audio Industry other than enjoying good music and movies.

So I guess from a completely uneducated background in the Music Industry... I would think that they either mix from the master to make it sound better or the DAC they are using is the key... Maybe it is both.
Thanks for your opinion and honesty.

You were very brave to state your opinion about what you heard when many of the "experts" on this forum, and in this thread, say its impossible.

Its so ironic that many of these experts have jobs recording music that sounds as "great" as possible.

However, they believe its wasted on the "unwashed masses", since they cant possibly hear any better.
Old 21st April 2014
  #3540
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephi82 View Post

Its so ironic that many of these experts have jobs recording music that sounds as "great" as possible.

However, they believe its wasted on the "unwashed masses", since they cant possibly hear any better.
Very true.
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