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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 19th April 2014
  #3391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
This is a good point - I stopped going to raves when vinyl was replaced by digital...the integrity of the music was lost.
Funny. I was so happy when CDJs replaced vinyl. Much better sound!

In the scene I am in, there were quite a few DAT DJs in the old days. They always sounded MUCH better than any Vinyl DJs. It was very noticeable when vinyl DJs played right after DAT DJs. Vinyl just sounds noisy, crackly and the low-end is a resonant mess as the bass from the PA feeds back into the decks and stylus. Then the CDJs came and quite quickly the crappy vinyl disappeared from the scene. Hurray!

I think some people just don't like good accurate sound... That is fine but they should really be posting in the lo-fi section.

Alistair
Old 19th April 2014
  #3392
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Funny. I was so happy when CDJs replaced vinyl. Much better sound!

In the scene I am in, there were quite a few DAT DJs in the old days. They always sounded MUCH better than any Vinyl DJs. It was very noticeable when vinyl DJs played right after DAT DJs. Vinyl just sounds noisy, crackly and the low-end is a resonant mess as the bass from the PA feeds back into the decks and stylus. Then the CDJs came and quite quickly the crappy vinyl disappeared from the scene. Hurray!

I think some people just don't like good accurate sound... That is fine but they should really be posting in the lo-fi section.

Alistair
And some people just love stirring the pot.

P.S. Funnily, there was a piece on morning tv here today, that featured normal punters going on about the virtues of vinyl and how it sounds much nicer than digital........as it is 'national record shop day' or some lark like that today. I think you would find there are a LOT of people that think that music recordings off vinyl had something CD's don't. Nevermind mp3's.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3393
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
I'm talking about all CDs! store bought CD's, the ones I made on my Masterlink (which is noted for quite good converters), CD's I bought 25 years ago. CD's I bought last month. Good grief.
It has been a very long time since I worked with a Masterlink so I can't really remember how good or bad the converters are but even if they are very good, if you are going analogue to the Masterlink, you are either going to end up with clipped recordings or the level of your recordings is going to be lower and the noise floor higher. Of course you prefer the sources.

Alistair
Old 19th April 2014
  #3394
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Maybe that is why loads of the Pono test subjects are using vinyl in their comparisons, because they still remember that when they listened to vinyl, they still valued the music, and hearing this makes them have that feeling again. That feeling they have not had for ages whilst listening to CDs and mp3's. Doesn't sound too strange a concept to me.
Aaah nostalgia. Everything used to be better!

Alistair
Old 19th April 2014
  #3395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
The trouble is that most things creative are subjective.
We are not talking about art or creativity. We are talking about delivery formats and players. This is where science gives us answers if we want accuracy to the source. The Pono marketing is technically incorrect. That is not a subjective thing at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Yes, the science fact is the science fact.
But don't conflate it with subjective, artistic decisions.
You are the one conflating things.

Alistair
Old 19th April 2014
  #3396
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Maybe even just upsampling it to high rates to keep the Pono converter's filter from cutting into the audible band on playback?
If they are upsampling, they need anti-imaging filters that do the job well at the base rate to start with. (Meaning NOT a moving average filter which will make a mess of a 44.1/48 Khz file). If they have a good filter for the upsampling, that's it. Job done. No need for higher sample rates!

Alistair
Old 19th April 2014
  #3397
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
And some people just love stirring the pot.
Oh yes!

Quote:
P.S. Funnily, there was a piece on morning tv here today, that featured normal punters going on about the virtues of vinyl and how it sounds much nicer than digital........as it is 'national record shop day' or some lark like that today. I think you would find there are a LOT of people that think that music recordings off vinyl had something CD's don't. Nevermind mp3's.
You mentioned something in another post about the highs on CDs. I agree that many many CDs are made way too bright. Especially when played back on a big PA rig. Sharp (clipped) highs at 100 KW does not sound nice to my ears at all. (Thank goodness for good earplugs). Vinyl rarely has the same level of highs so this is nice but there is no technical reason to make CDs overly bright.

The kind of low-end feedback I mentioned in my post isn't nearly as much as a problem on a home rig compared to a huge PA rig. (Especially in a closed space like a club). I understand that many people prefer the sound of vinyl. It does sound different but one place I never liked vinyl was on big PAs. It just sounds so incredibly messy.

But Karloff, I think we listen to different types of music. That might be a big part in our different perspectives on this subject.

Alistair
Old 19th April 2014
  #3398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walter88 View Post
There's a Metallica Signature Edition, so I'm guessing no.
If what I read about it was correct, Metallica's Black Album was mixed to early digital, so that would be a pretty good justification to remix for Pono. Other records, perhaps not so much.

It'd be pretty funny if Pono (w.r.t the big name artists signed up) was basically a 'free remix and resell card'. That could be bad or good. Certainly if they're using it as an excuse to reject the loudness war, it could be good. Might not really recapture the great classic mixes, though (which is part of what made some records what they were). We might get George Lucasing of the albums. Suddenly, you can always hear the squeak of the Speed King pedal, and you don't even WANT to hear the squeak of the Speed King pedal
Old 19th April 2014
  #3399
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post

P.S. Funnily, there was a piece on morning tv here today, that featured normal punters going on about the virtues of vinyl and how it sounds much nicer than digital........as it is 'national record shop day' or some lark like that today. I think you would find there are a LOT of people that think that music recordings off vinyl had something CD's don't. Nevermind mp3's.
Same here. Record shop day (in Australia) was featured on our evening news.
It was actually great to see a broad selection of people looking excited about buying music.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3400
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
there are a LOT of people that think that music recordings off vinyl had something CD's don't.
And antique clocks have something that modern ones don't, it ain't accuracy though.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3401
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bandpass View Post
And antique clocks have something that modern ones don't, it ain't accuracy though.
Nope, it isn't. It is appeal. And we need that back to merge into a digital format. As, after all it is supposed to relate to a human on the end of it, not a robot.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Same here. Record shop day (in Australia) was featured on our evening news.
It was actually great to see a broad selection of people looking excited about buying music.
I loved seeing it too and couldn't help hoping this here Pono lark might help get that feeling of excitedness back into the big numbers (of people) game.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3403
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post
They are using the same master and remixing it, that is about all I know about it. They said the orignal mix (downmix?) is modified for the imperfections of a CD, and that theirs is truer to the original master since.
You don't have any idea what you're talking about, do you?

I don't mean that in a mean way, but you don't seem to have any idea what those words that you are using even mean.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
You don't have any idea what you're talking about, do you?

I don't mean that in a mean way, but you don't seem to have any idea what those words that you are using even mean.
You sure are making it sound a little hostile though.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3405
Quote:
Originally Posted by bandpass View Post
And antique clocks have something that modern ones don't, it ain't accuracy though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Nope, it isn't. It is appeal. And we need that back to merge into a digital format. As, after all it is supposed to relate to a human on the end of it, not a robot.
My mom collects antique clocks. It's like going to a clock shop. She has some very nice pieces.

But when she needs to know the precise time, she uses one of the electric locks scattered around her house or just looks at her mobile phone. And she uses her mobile phone as her alarm clock.

When you know a lot about a given system, you know what its weaknesses are...

Now, the notion that we're going to somehow fold the appeal of antique clocks into a digital time piece? THAT cracks me the hell up. People in this thread seem to be willing to say anything without regard to facts or even basic common sense.

_____________


With regard to the guy above, who you suggested I was being hostile toward... I don't think he's a bad person.

But the guy clearly doesn't even know the basic terms of our craft (look at his post) yet he is in here wasting our time with his ignorance and nonsense.

Are these people terminal victims of the self-esteem movement who simply don't have the tools to understand how little they know but are so puffed up on their own self-importance and 'self-esteem' that they are incapable of coming to an understanding of just how ignorant and incapable of serious thought they are?

Looks like it to me.

Not to put too fine a point on it.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3406
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
[=Karloff70;10043219]Nope, it isn't. It is appeal. And we need that back to merge into a digital format. As, after all it is supposed to relate to a human on the end of it, not a robot.
My mom collects antique clocks. It's like going to a clock shop. She has some very nice pieces.

But when she needs to know the precise time, she uses one of the electric locks scattered around her house or just looks at her mobile phone. And she uses her mobile phone as your alarm clock.

When you know a lot about a given system, you know what its weaknesses are...[/QUOTE]

You argue like a robot.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Nope, it isn't. It is appeal. And we need that back to merge into a digital format. As, after all it is supposed to relate to a human on the end of it, not a robot.
Shouldn't we be relating to the music rather than the hardware used to play it back? I thought we were not robots.

Alistair
Old 19th April 2014
  #3408
[fixed the quote issue in Karloff's post below]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1
My mom collects antique clocks. It's like going to a clock shop. She has some very nice pieces.

But when she needs to know the precise time, she uses one of the electric locks scattered around her house or just looks at her mobile phone. And she uses her mobile phone as your alarm clock.

When you know a lot about a given system, you know what its weaknesses are...
You argue like a robot.
Right, I'm a robot.

You figured it out.

You win. Damn. I thought I was so smart.

But what does a robot know, eh?


Hey, if I was a human being who was on the edge of losing his patience with the abject and willful ignorance and lack of logical ability manifest by many in this thread, I'd probably say something pissy and human like:

Well, I'd rather sound like a robot than sound like a borderline schizophrenic who can't sort out his perceptions from his delusional fugues as some of the people here do. I'd rather sound like a pedant who at least knows the language and basic science of his (former) profession.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
I'd rather sound like a pedant who at least knows the terms and jargon and basic science of his (former) profession.
I know. You make that perfectly clear. But then what's really clear, when you're a borderline schizophrenic. Now, where did my meds go?
Old 19th April 2014
  #3410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Shouldn't we be relating to the music rather than the hardware used to play it back? I thought we were not robots.

Alistair
Really?

We are not robots. As such I figure we respond to both the actual music AND the sonic possibilities/flavours of the format. Or is it an 'either one only' choice?

There is no glare on the top end of vinyl, and why wouldn't we hence respond differently just on that mere point alone?

And before you say it, NO not the mixes , but the sonics of the format irrespective of any production choices in the material.

This is where you go 'digital has no sound'. And then I go on a weeks holiday to Italy.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3411
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
Shouldn't we be relating to the music rather than the hardware used to play it back? I thought we were not robots.

Alistair
I came to a realization last night.

I spend about zero time in the course of my creative day worried about technical issues. I have my rig set up the way I like, everything runs well, I get to concentrate on the music.

Because that's the main thing for me.

When I listen to music, I'm not sitting there going, gee, did I just hear some sort of conversion or codec defect. I listen to music.

Having basic knowledge of my craft and the science behind it, for me, gets around problems others seem to obsess over: worrying incessantly that their gear isn't right or about this technical minutiae or that and such. That would drive me nuts.

If some of these people put half the effort into getting a proper technical understanding of their craft, they probably wouldn't be nearly so obsessed with tweaky little bits (that they don't even really seem to understand in the first place).


Now, why I participate in threads like this has more to do with my deep and growing concern that the mainstream of people are becoming cut off from any real understanding of how their everyday worlds work -- and so inventing fabulous and often downright irrational 'explanations' for the world they think they're experiencing.

I find the growing ignorance and lack of critical thinking ability in the general population extremely troubling -- and that's reflected here but seems even more perverse because of the innate technical nature of the field.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3412
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
I know. You make that perfectly clear. But then what's really clear, when you're a borderline schizophrenic. Now, where did my meds go?
I get you're being playful.

We all have problems but borderline schizophrenia is not one of mine. Now borderline personality disorder...

heh



[EDIT: I get the reference now. See my next post below.]
Old 19th April 2014
  #3413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
I get you're being playful.

We all have problems but borderline schizophrenia is not one of mine. Now borderline personality disorder...

heh
He was joking about himself.

Alistair
Old 19th April 2014
  #3414
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderTow View Post
He was joking about himself.

Alistair
Ah! I get it, now. Hence his comment about his meds.

You see how much difficulty those of us with borderline personality disorder have in understanding others. heh

(I mean, if I have to have a Dutch guy explaining the statements of my fellow [presumed native-] Anglophone, Karloff, I must be pretty far gone. TBH, I haven't been getting much sleep lately. But, no, it's not because of this thread. heh )


EDIT... OH! I just realized the 'borderline schizophrenic' was a playful reference to something I'd said referring to some of the rambles I'd read here. Let's get this on the record: I definitely wasn't referring to Karloff70 -- in the slightest. I think he's a smart guy and a good guy who's trying to see the big picture. Just so we're clear on that.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post

We all have problems but borderline schizophrenia is not one of mine.
Nor mine. And please don't comment on that if you can help it. I'm off on holiday now. Have a good time of it chaps.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3416
Airwindows
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
Now, why I participate in threads like this has more to do with my deep and growing concern that the mainstream of people are becoming cut off from any real understanding of how their everyday worlds work -- and so inventing fabulous and often downright irrational 'explanations' for the world they think they're experiencing.

I find the growing ignorance and lack of critical thinking ability in the general population extremely troubling -- and that's reflected here but seems even more perverse because of the innate technical nature of the field.
That's actually a very deep and concerning point about society in general. I feel that way about some aspects of school privatization: it's prime territory for very determined propaganda and brainwashing of children (which has always happened in different ways, but why make it worse?)

However, don't let it distract you too much from the business of the thread

And especially don't let it fool you that your reason has given you the final answers to all things digital audio, as we've seen people conclude THAT before. All our authority figures (and I am NOT one, I am a 'get you thinking' figure) are saying subtly different things here, though there are some points of consensus.

(for instance, "we can probably get away with 24 bit 48K in virtually every conceivable situation no matter how leery you are of CD quality audio", and "loudness war is bad")
Old 19th April 2014
  #3417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
I came to a realization last night.

I spend about zero time in the course of my creative day worried about technical issues. I have my rig set up the way I like, everything runs well, I get to concentrate on the music.

Because that's the main thing for me.

When I listen to music, I'm not sitting there going, gee, did I just hear some sort of conversion or codec defect. I listen to music.

Having basic knowledge of my craft and the science behind it, for me, gets around problems others seem to obsess over: worrying incessantly that their gear isn't right or about this technical minutiae or that and such. It strikes me as nuts.

If some of these people put half the effort into getting a proper technical understanding of their craft, they probably wouldn't be nearly so obsessed with tweaky little bits (that they don't even really seem to understand in the first place).
Fully agreed. You figure out how and what works and then forget about it (until someone posts non-sense on Gearslutz ).

But yeah, the people that keep on arguing for higher sample rates are clearly the ones that don't get the technical stuff. That is blatantly obvious to those that do.

Quote:
Now, why I participate in threads like this has more to do with my deep and growing concern that the mainstream of people are becoming cut off from any real understanding of how their everyday worlds work -- and so inventing fabulous and often downright irrational 'explanations' for the world they think they're experiencing.

I find the growing ignorance and lack of critical thinking ability in the general population extremely troubling -- and that's reflected here but seems even more perverse because of the innate technical nature of the field.
I don't think that not understanding the world around them is anything new at all. But as you, I would expect things to be getting better, not worse!

I'm not really sure things are getting worse though. I think the net just makes it obvious how many people don't get it. For several reasons: You get into discussions with people that you would never meet normally or probably ignore in real life. People write stuff that they would never say out loud in other places. Etc etc... At least I hope this explains all the crazy non-sense on the net...

Alistair
Old 19th April 2014
  #3418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
(I mean, if I have to have a Dutch guy explaining the statements of my fellow [presumed native-] Anglophone, Karloff, I must be pretty far gone.
Which Dutch guy would that be?

Alistair
Old 19th April 2014
  #3419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Nor mine. And please don't comment on that if you can help it. I'm off on holiday now. Have a good time of it chaps.
Have a great holiday!

Hope you saw my other posts explaining my mistaken interpretation but don't waste any more vacation time replying -- go out there and have fun!
Old 19th April 2014
  #3420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
I'm off on holiday now. Have a good time of it chaps.
Have fun Karloff!

Alistair
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