The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 18th April 2014
  #3361
Lives for gear
 
paul brown's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Sure, but no one can really appoint themselves the lord of 'better'.
.
no one but time can. without the benefit of time to make an assessment of pono, we are left with what we have learned over previous time. there is the known science. there are the known marketing techniques. to the scientifically minded, the two seem at odds in this particular case, hence the myriad of comments!
Old 18th April 2014
  #3362
Yes, the science fact is the science fact.
But don't conflate it with subjective, artistic decisions.
There are very few artistic decisions that are factually correct.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3363
Lives for gear
 
paul brown's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Not really.
Artists agonise over many creative decisions and often just end up going with their gut feeling, or even a whim at the time.
There are thousands of ways of achieving the same result, and very often the decision to choose a particular option is not 'fact' based (aka objective).
a thing aimed at or sought; a goal. isn't that the creative process? the noun. the objective.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3364
Lives for gear
 
paul brown's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Yes, the science fact is the science fact.
But don't conflate it with subjective, artistic decisions.
There are very few artistic decisions that are factually correct.
how can you possibly define what is factually incorrect in the expression of human emotion from a personal viewpoint? that is what makes art fascinating, fluid, vibrant. it is correct to the artist.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3365
Whatever.
But the objective can change from day to day. Nothing is definitive, everything is subjective.
That's why artists tinker for ever, and that's why it's a hard earned skill knowing when to stop, knowing when you've done everything to the best of your ability and can do no more. That's why artists hate to listen back to their albums a year later, or watch their films, or read their books. Because they can think of ways they could have done it 'better' or more accurately - differently.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3366
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul brown View Post
how can you possibly define what is factually incorrect in the expression of human emotion from a personal viewpoint? .
Exactly!
I can't. Nothing is factually incorrect, nothing is factually correct. There are no facts except one - the fact the artist decided they were done and presented the work as finished. That was a subjective opinion made in the moment.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3367
Lives for gear
 
3rd Degree's Avatar
 

Truth be told, I have worked in marketing. The crazy thing about it was, the companies really thought their products were great and worthwhile for the consumer. We tried to lead them to our product because it was something we thought was worthwhile. Some can say we overstated things but we never went beyond a point of being malicious. My brother develops both commercial and consumer products, though he doesn't market them, the same companies who over hype consumer products are getting products that have been developed by the same team as people who developed products for internal use for UPS, HP, Walmart, etc. So, if UPS thinks these developers are good enough to develop computer chips for tracking their packages, the same people are making some of these products, to the same business standards (not necessarily the same standards in other ways for multiple reasons) so the same "crap" they make for the consumer is high technology for businesses that allow them to cut costs, sometimes dramatically. That's a trip.


I swear, some of you are coming off like this. As a human, you will all have a perception bias that will inevitably cause you to make poor decisions. On top of that, most can't even really understand the differences and unless they can use a scientific method to prove otherwise, they should not even consider a purchase. Even more so, these companies can fool the masses so easily by using terminology you don't understand which makes you think they are smarter than you so you may begin to trust them which means you can't even justifiably make a smart decision. I am sure some could put more in the list. So basically at the end of the day, our brains are trying to trick us, these companies are trying to trick us, so having any opinion is absolutely ludicrous unless we extensively test these things, educate ourselves extensively to the point we loose interest in anything we are interested in. If we don't loose interest, we soon learn that it's all BS anyway so we should never buy anything unless it's obviously a good decision. Parting with the money we work for is is just a plain bad idea. Seriously, many of you sound like that.

What's strange is most consumers actually get by in all these obstacles to trick us up. I actually bought paper towels the other day and that's something I know nothing about. My wife did tell me I bought the wrong ones and educated me for future purposes but the crazy thing is we are able to get by, we got passed the mistake I made and still are using them, I just used one and the crazy thing about it is...I actually worked and worked pretty well. Another time, my wife and I bought a TV. We consulted some of our consumer electronic expert friends and we found a wide difference of opinions. It was also somewhat overwhelming, so we decided to just go and buy one. I have no idea if what we paid justifies the quality of it, or not. However, it's strange, we both enjoy it, don't really notice anything wrong with it, and it fits into the purpose we bought it for. I may have been a moron in my decision but I am a happy one, I paid a good price and I can't see why I would want something different. I was against buying an iPhone for a few reasons but I found the Android market to be too complicated to research. Even though I had a bias against the phone I bought, even though I didn't know exactly what the positives and negatives were, it was an easier decision for me. I know I paid more, as I am a moron, and I still don't know if a Samsung would have been better but the second I bought my phone, I stopped caring about other choices and enjoyed my phone. It's really strange because I still don't know if I made the best decision, especially because I went against a bias but I am perfectly happy. I must be some sort of really positive person because I was able to transcend the idea that even though I was either getting ripped off by a malicious marketing campaign or didn't have the knowledge to make an educated decision, I was able to overcome my doubt and make a decision, even if it may not have been the best, my doubt vanished and I am actually quite happy. I guess it's what they say, ignorance is bliss or something, I swear I have heard that line before.

Really though, nobody has pointed out any downside of this player from a technical sense. Meaning, there is nothing this player can do to actually make music sound worse, at least in principle, we will have to see in practice. The negatives on the table are only that they are "misleading" people and the price of music will go up (which in the past has not worked very well for any period of time). That doesn't mean music prices go up globally, only if you want to participate in this fraudulent device.

Funny because I think people perceive me as one who has interest in this device. I really don't see myself buying one, it's really not on my radar for myself. However, I see it as an interesting idea, and I think more interesting ideas will come from it, if successful and that's why I am participating here.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3368
Lives for gear
 
paul brown's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
That's why artists hate to listen back to their albums a year later, or watch their films, or read their books. Because they can think of ways they could have done it 'better' or more accurately - differently.
i don't think that it is just artists. hindsight is used in life. if only i'd made that choice, etc. i think we are debating semantics! probably a waste of time for both of us! Happy creating, whatever its definition!
Old 19th April 2014
  #3369
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rd Degree View Post
Truth be told, I have worked in marketing. The crazy thing about it was, the companies really thought their products were great and worthwhile for the consumer…...
EDIT SNIP.
+1 (the whole post basically)
Old 19th April 2014
  #3370
Lives for gear
 
3rd Degree's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
+1 (the whole post basically)
Glad you understand it, haha, wasn't sure if people would or not.


This product isn't like audio gear where we have to justify it's value in a commercial setting. I don't recommend any business buys equipment, services, etc without doing extensive research. This is not one of those things. On the contrary, marketing isn't usually malicious, perception bias is a necessary mechanism for consumer participation in the market, and one does not need extensive knowledge to make a decision that makes them happy.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3371
Everyone markets. Some marketing is more effective than others.
marketing effects people in different ways. I still have an iPhone that is several generations old. The local store even offered me a free upgrade to the new one, but I don't need to.
As such I think it's a mistake to blame marketing (and drinking kool aid) for all the ills of society. Especially as no one is 100% immune. And therefore i find one group criticising another for being the pawns of capitalism a hard one to swallow.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3372
Lives for gear
 
3rd Degree's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Everyone markets. Some marketing is more effective than others.
marketing effects people in different ways. I still have an iPhone that is several generations old. The local store even offered me a free upgrade to the new one, but I don't need to.
As such I think it's a mistake to blame marketing (and drinking kool aid) for all the ills of society. Especially as no one is 100% immune. And therefore i find one group criticising another for being the pawns of capitalism a hard one to swallow.

Exactly. Best point in italics. Now, if you are anti-consumerism, or don't believe in owning things past your basic life duties/responsibilities. I don't think anyone in this thread is that, or they wouldn't be posting in this thread, could be wrong there. I doubt very many musicians are that either, as it's a very odd choice to be one, with that mentality, at least in 2014.

I think it really caught me when people say that this is a scam or anything malicious that goes way beyond marketing tactics that I would consider reasonable, even if overstated.

I bet they are laughing all the way to the bank with the controversy surround this from internet threads to bloggers, etc.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3373
Lives for gear
 
Plush's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul brown View Post
i'm not sure that you are right. there are some very clever contributors in this thread and i have learned some very interesting stuff. there is also a whole load of horses*^t, but that is a forum for you. i have witnessed dogma slowly being diluted in some individuals which i always find to be a positive step.

maybe you are just being ironic in your comment. it is quite a dogmatic comment and i'm sure that the clever people who have taken time to try and educate others might find your dismissal of their efforts somewhat ignorant!
No, I'm sincere in my statement which intends to speak out against guessing,
ad infinitum personal attacks, super extended grousing and drama stirring; ignorance of the principals of digital audio, lack of business sense, gross ignorance of digital theory and philistine-like insults towards Neil.

It is a cesspool thread that has brought out the amateur hour nature of the current GS community.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3374
Lives for gear
Until there is some kind of Pono certification (TM) to protect high dynamic range of recordings by measuring loudness a la EBU R128 and refusing to play non-compliant tracks I'm out.

Unless there is already? Couldn't stomach the whole thread.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3375
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
No, I'm sincere in my statement which intends to speak out against guessing,
ad infinitum personal attacks, super extended grousing and drama stirring; ignorance of the principals of digital audio, lack of business sense, gross ignorance of digital theory and philistine-like insults towards Neil.

It is a cesspool thread that has brought out the amateur hour nature of the current GS community.
Really? It's better than the last time I tried to discuss something here.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3376
Lives for gear
 
nuthinupmysleeve's Avatar
 

Light Harmonic - Lightspeed USB Cable

I'm trying to remember what this reminds me of... Hmmmm...
Old 19th April 2014
  #3377
+1
It's largely been devoid of childish point scoring and insults, despite some very strong held views.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3378
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post
So, should we make a player that does processing that mimics LP and tape distortions (without the added random noise, pops, and clicks), and then adds those to the digital output?

What do you think? :p
We were told that the normal FLAC recordings of a CD have to be mixed around the problems with the CD format where the Pono ones do not. I believe that is where the difference is.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3379
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
Your post is most welcome; AFAIK it's the 1st first-person account in this thread. There have been some criticisms of the listeners responses in the Pono video (which I think were unwarranted); could I ask: Did you consider the audio quality to be so outstanding as to outweigh any possible expectation bias? Could you describe (in an explicit sense) the particular qualities that made Pono outstanding e.g. sense of depth, realism of soundstage, etc.? Thank you!
Well it has been about a month sense I heard it... AIR the sound was the most lifelike I have ever heard in a recording. You could hear every little nuance that was in the recording... As an example, there were comments made as to what type of damping was used on the kick drum as it was so very distinct. Vocals sounded like the singer was standing in front of you singing, and some of the participants knew the artists and made comments that it sounded exactly like they did in real life. Soundstage depth and realism was right on the money IMO. It really was the best I have ever heard next to a live session. I wish that I would have taken notes at the time but I was too busy enjoying the performance.

It would have been better to compare the same songs but this was not a coordinated effort but a GTG that happened to have a Pono presentation, and some others that brought their best music for trying out the new JTR speakers.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3380
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post
We were told that the normal FLAC recordings of a CD have to be mixed around the problems with the CD format where the Pono ones do not. I believe that is where the difference is.
"Problems with the CD format"...

Could they be a bit more specific?

If they are not using properly quantized versions of the EXACT same mix, it's nothing but a cheat.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3381
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by j_j View Post
"Problems with the CD format"...

Could they be a bit more specific?

If they are not using properly quantized versions of the EXACT same mix, it's nothing but a cheat.
They are using the same master and remixing it, that is about all I know about it. They said the orignal mix (downmix?) is modified for the imperfections of a CD, and that theirs is truer to the original master since.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3382
j_j
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post
They are using the same master and remixing it, that is about all I know about it. They said the orignal mix (downmix?) is modified for the imperfections of a CD, and that theirs is truer to the original master since.
Sigh.

The ONLY thing they should do is convert it to 16/44, which is a well-understood mathematical process.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3383
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by londonengineer View Post
Until there is some kind of Pono certification (TM) to protect high dynamic range of recordings by measuring loudness a la EBU R128 and refusing to play non-compliant tracks I'm out.

Unless there is already? .
There's a Metallica Signature Edition, so I'm guessing no.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3384
Lives for gear
 
TREMORS's Avatar
It's a bit disturbing to hear part of Pono's marketing to be a teenager that says

"I didn't know music could be that good when you're sober."

Sounds like this kid needs an intervention, not a new audio player lol
Old 19th April 2014
  #3385
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post
Well it has been about a month sense I heard it... AIR the sound was the most lifelike I have ever heard in a recording. You could hear every little nuance that was in the recording... As an example, there were comments made as to what type of damping was used on the kick drum as it was so very distinct. Vocals sounded like the singer was standing in front of you singing, and some of the participants knew the artists and made comments that it sounded exactly like they did in real life. Soundstage depth and realism was right on the money IMO. It really was the best I have ever heard next to a live session. I wish that I would have taken notes at the time but I was too busy enjoying the performance.

It would have been better to compare the same songs but this was not a coordinated effort but a GTG that happened to have a Pono presentation, and some others that brought their best music for trying out the new JTR speakers.
Thank you for taking the time to respond; it's really interesting to hear a listener's opinion of Pono (especially amidst the frenzied speculation of this thread). I look forward to hearing Pono myself.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3386
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
Thank you for taking the time to respond; it's really interesting to hear a listener's opinion of Pono (especially amidst the frenzied speculation of this thread). I look forward to hearing Pono myself.
+1
Old 19th April 2014
  #3387
Lives for gear
 
Dpro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post
They are using the same master and remixing it, that is about all I know about it. They said the orignal mix (downmix?) is modified for the imperfections of a CD, and that theirs is truer to the original master since.
Are you an engineer? See as I am and this is the first time I have heard of such a thing as a mix being modified for the imperfections of a CD. Which sounds like like pure marketing BS.

In fact I would go as fas saying that whoever said this if they are an audio engineer have some very big misconceptions of basic processes . The only thing that would happen is conversion to 16/44.1.
I know JJ indeed asked about this as well. The only reason I am speaking up is I find it hard to believe a audio engineer would let someone say what they told you. Definitely without questioning what they meant and asking for a clear explanation.

I will add I have been reading this thread the whole time. I am a fan of audio in non lossy forms I also feel 24 bit is a good thing . I do not believe 192k is needed for great sounding audio based on what I have heard and studying the science behind digital audio . As well as understanding the limits of Human hearing. Now in all of these I give JJ great credence in this thread .
Old 19th April 2014
  #3388
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dpro View Post
Are you an engineer? See as I am and this is the first time I have heard of such a thing as a mix being modified for the imperfections of a CD. Which sounds like like pure marketing BS.

In fact I would go as fas saying that whoever said this if they are an audio engineer have some very big misconceptions of basic processes . The only thing that would happen is conversion to 16/44.1.
I know JJ indeed asked about this as well. The only reason I am speaking up is I find it hard to believe a audio engineer would let someone say what they told you. Definitely without questioning what they meant and asking for a clear explanation.
I agree, that is all a bit washy, but I read it as if the thing they do makes it 'truer to the original master' it isn't anything to do with changing anything about the actual mix, as that IS the original master, but must be something to do with conversion afterwards. Still very blurry though. Maybe even just upsampling it to high rates to keep the Pono converter's filter from cutting into the audible band on playback?
Old 19th April 2014
  #3389
Gear Head
 
bandpass's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ellisr63 View Post
We were told that the normal FLAC recordings of a CD have to be mixed around the problems with the CD format where the Pono ones do not. I believe that is where the difference is.
The fact that they'll only tell people about these supposed problems, rather than—god forbid—actually let them listen for themselves, is pretty much end of story.
Old 19th April 2014
  #3390
Lives for gear
 
O.F.F.'s Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuthinupmysleeve View Post
Light Harmonic - Lightspeed USB Cable

I'm trying to remember what this reminds me of... Hmmmm...
Huile de Serpent?
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump