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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 18th April 2014
  #3331
The flaw in the Pono plan is to drag us back to 1990's CD pricing.
Sure, many members of the public might be interested in better quality audio, but I don't think many are prepared to pay a substantial premium for it.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephi82 View Post
This is freaking laughable. From all the posts that I have read you are an audio recording pro, or at least stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.

Are you telling me that MARKETING has not had any role in your selection of the mics, pre amps, outboard, monitors, consoles and DAW related equipment you have bought over the years?

Knowing that you have to answer yes, you then have the audacity to say that PONO's marketing is resulting in "shameless victimization" of those who aren't as discerning as you? LOL, ha, ha, ha.........

Let me ask you something, did you never but a Memorex cassette? (for you youngsters, they had a great advertising campaign back in the old days)

You sir are an elitist and completely full of BS, and by the way, 99% of the time I enjoy reading your posts, just to make sure this stays friendly.....(and I am sincere)
LOL. Nah, we're good. I probably stated that a little strongly.

But, in addition to having had a marginal career freelancing and then running a little project studio, I did also stay in a Holiday Inn -- while I was the marketing director of a small electronics manufacturer.

That was on the communications sector -- but I do know that turf -- and I know the pressure your bosses -- even those who know better -- put on an MD to get the most impact for the advertising and promotional dollar possible, truth be pretty much damned.

But I've also been following audio since I was 12 years old and put together my first stereo in 1963 (and read every single audio related book in my local library over a period of about 3 years -- I even picked up Faulkner's novel, The Sound and the Fury a couple times because some wacky jokester -- or quasi-literate librarian which seems a bigger stretch even in the late fifties -- had filed it in the Dewey Decimal System as sound-related non-fiction) and was a tireless reader of in-depth reviews and bench tests and really learned to hate the BS-spew that went on in a lot of audio marketing even then.

With re: Memorex, no, I only bought good tape if I had any choice. I have enough Memorex to know it was crap.

But I get the reference. Still I thought Maxell's 'sound-blown' guy in the chair was a far better ad and image. And far more poetic. Not that the shattered Memorex glass was at all 'unbelievable.' Nor did it suggest anything about the quality of the tape. Turn it up loud enough at the resonance frequency, the glass will break. Easy to believe. But no poetry. And no info. But an image. And, you know, people are little ideogram processing nerve bundles.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3333
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by H.E. View Post
I hope there is a trend towards sound quality awareness. Lots of people care much more about quantity than quality.
But even to some professional musicians, quality in listening devices is not that important. What's important is the music. And music lives in the human mind.
Today my mind is not exactly what it was yesterday and therefore the music isn't exactly the same either.
I believe the perceived value of music is partially linked into the sound. And the two shouldn't be separated. You want BOTH.

The comment earlier of going from vinyl to CD loosing integrity sums it up well to me. In all its faulty whole, the sound of vinyl somehow holds more musical integrity than the sound of CDs. And yes, it sounds nicer/less hard turned up, too.

On that note, a sonic signature of a format that would re-introduce that 'thing' that vinyl had, but without the issues would indeed make people value the music they hear from it differently than the now completely worthless mp3's which people while we all listen to them, don't give a ****e about.

Maybe that is why loads of the Pono test subjects are using vinyl in their comparisons, because they still remember that when they listened to vinyl, they still valued the music, and hearing this makes them have that feeling again. That feeling they have not had for ages whilst listening to CDs and mp3's. Doesn't sound too strange a concept to me.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3334
Quote:
Originally Posted by sickie View Post
Dear Ephi, nothing wrong with being an elitist if you have grounds for it and theblue1 has those grounds (his knowledge about the subject) and he's not full of BS, Neil Young an Pono's marketing is full of BS.
Oh, I'm full of BS -- but I try to only say what I believe I can back up. (At least here. )

So, don't fall for my glib, superficial charm. heh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephi82 View Post
Thank you. Opinion noted.

I will repeat, I respect and immensely enjoy "theblue1's" contributions, as well as his apparent knowledge.

That being said, I think he is a bit off target on this one.

Peace.
As noted, we're good -- and I wouldn't respect you if you didn't say what you think.

It doesn't hurt to have friendly folks who don't agree with you -- it's easy to get trapped in your own perspective, so I'm happy to have folks correct me.

I do understand that sometimes I get a little, let's say, over-enthusiastic in putting across a point of view, particularly when things get away from the purely technical and into other areas like ethics and such.

And, as I hope my earlier comments suggested, I do know the pressure to market with the most potent superlatives that can be mustered and using every bit of leverage one can find. It's a tough game out there. Understood.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3335
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul brown View Post
are you saying that you have never enjoyed listening on cd? to any release? from any label? every time you listened to a cd, you thought you were missing something?
Never said that at all. I've even enjoyed listening on MP3's, or low rez on YouTube. Though yes, I know what I was missing.



Quote:
Originally Posted by paul brown View Post
and "good grief". don't you know that different formats have different masterings? i provided you with a link to a database. even different re-releases have different dynamic range. the information is all there for you.

I understand mastering and dynamic range. I hear those differences as well, but that isn't what I am talking about.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3336
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post
I even picked up Faulkner's novel, The Sound and the Fury a couple times because some wacky jokester -- or quasi-literate librarian which seems a bigger stretch even in the late fifties -- had filed it in the Dewey Decimal System as sound-related non-fiction)
Old 18th April 2014
  #3337
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul brown View Post
... this is a site for audio engineers. it should be a bastion against marketing mistruths when it comes to audio. ...
Sadly, a quick look through any of the gear threads shows that many audio engineers are as partial to the marketing Kool-Aid as anyone else.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3338
Lives for gear
 
paul brown's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Maybe that is why loads of the Pono test subjects are using vinyl in their comparisons, because they still remember that when they listened to vinyl, they still valued the music, and hearing this makes them have that feeling again. That feeling they have not had for ages whilst listening to CDs and mp3's. Doesn't sound too strange a concept to me.
sometimes i find myself fully aligned with the gist of what you are saying. this is not one of those times! are you also in the camp that says that cd recordings are not good enough to represent the value of music? a Great recording sounds great at mp3. i can hear the quality on a youtube clip!

by your rationale, a great story, written by a great author, is somehow diminished by the fact that they printed the book on really low-grade paper. i don't get where you are going with your train of thought. sorry!
Old 18th April 2014
  #3339
Lives for gear
 
3rd Degree's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul brown View Post
the labels have the masters. i'd call that a stash. i don't think it is a secret. the trend has been to release re-mastered versions so it is possible to have different masters. the trend has also been to make them louder. some of us think that addressing that particular point would be a far greater service to music appreciation than misdirection of consumers based on invented science.
I am just saying that us "educated people" benefit the same way as the "sheep" in quoted post. I understand the labels have these, but all of use in the thread do not.



This isn't directed at you, but your last statement reads like a lot of other statements in the thread. Why does the consumer need all this protection? Is the consumer that moronic that they need the who Gearslutz community to save them from the potential that this doesn't deliver, or even if it does deliver as promised, they aren't getting it and therefore still need to be saved?

Next time I buy a TV, or a cellphone, I really hope someone saves me from my own perception of what I would like to have or not have.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3340
Quote:
Originally Posted by H.E. View Post
I actually started reading it but quickly realized it was just a wee bit over my then-12 year old head.

I mean, I was a fifties kid. I hadn't even quite figured out that sex wasn't just a gender classification. Different, different time. I did know that bad girls got pregnant. I just didn't know how. heh
Old 18th April 2014
  #3341
Lives for gear
 
3rd Degree's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
Sadly, a quick look through any of the gear threads shows that many audio engineers are as partial to the marketing Kool-Aid as anyone else.
Or maybe...just maybe...some are able to make a decision that may or may not be 100% logical that makes them happy, they enjoy what they have, are willing to admit they like what they own, even if it doesn't make another person happy, and it's not all trickery.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3342
Lives for gear
 
paul brown's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post

I understand mastering and dynamic range. I hear those differences as well, but that isn't what I am talking about.
can i ask what you are talking about then? you hear the differences in the mastering, the changes in dynamic range. what else do you hear that might not also be a result of those differences?
Old 18th April 2014
  #3343
Gear Head
 
sickie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Just curious, do you have an iPhone?
Nope, and never will (although they say never say never).
Old 18th April 2014
  #3344
Lives for gear
 
TREMORS's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rd Degree View Post
Or maybe...just maybe...some are able to make a decision that may or may not be 100% logical that makes them happy, they enjoy what they have, are willing to admit they like what they own, even if it doesn't make another person happy, and it's not all trickery.
Noone is arguing this.

Its when they start saying that those that choose differently are "rubes" or dont have ears.

This goes both ways, as this thread clearly demonstrates.

Both "sides" of this argument have engaged in this.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
[...]

Maybe that is why loads of the Pono test subjects are using vinyl in their comparisons, because they still remember that when they listened to vinyl, they still valued the music, and hearing this makes them have that feeling again. That feeling they have not had for ages whilst listening to CDs and mp3's. Doesn't sound too strange a concept to me.
That's how I felt some years ago when I switched up to an all 320 kbps on-demand stream subscription.

heh
Old 18th April 2014
  #3346
Lives for gear
 
paul brown's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rd Degree View Post
Why does the consumer need all this protection?
the history of dubious claims by business in order to sell product. look at the tamiflu issue right now. they even do it with peoples' health.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rd Degree View Post
Is the consumer that moronic that they need the who Gearslutz community to save them from the potential that this doesn't deliver, or even if it does deliver as promised, they aren't getting it and therefore still need to be saved?
do you like being misled? isn't the non-"moronic" thing to do to educate oneself?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rd Degree View Post
Next time I buy a TV, or a cellphone, I really hope someone saves me from my own perception of what I would like to have or not have.
or you can make a decision based on real values, not brainwashing marketing blurb. you'll need to do some research. it should make you more satisfied with your purchase.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3347
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rd Degree View Post
Or maybe...just maybe...some are able to make a decision that may or may not be 100% logical that makes them happy, they enjoy what they have, are willing to admit they like what they own, even if it doesn't make another person happy, and it's not all trickery.
Bingo.
It's laughable that people post as if they are clued up, and others aren't.
Your 'kool aid' maybe someone else's genuinely better quality option.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3348
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul brown View Post
or you can make a decision based on real values, not brainwashing marketing blurb.
The trouble is that most things creative are subjective.
A few years ago an art museum paid a million dollars for a pile of house bricks.
Were they subject to contemporary art 'kool aid' or the expert marketing BS of the artist, or was it genuine art? Ask 10 people and you'll get 10 different answers.
Posters in the thread making definitive comments about 'kool aid' is just laughable.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3349
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Ownership of masters is starting to revert back to artists under U.S. copyright law although in many cases the artist only leased the master to a label in the first place. This makes the ability to sell better sounding reissues very attractive to artists.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3350
Gear Head
 
sickie's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rd Degree View Post
I am just saying that us "educated people" benefit the same way as the "sheep" in quoted post. I understand the labels have these, but all of use in the thread do not.



This isn't directed at you, but your last statement reads like a lot of other statements in the thread. Why does the consumer need all this protection? Is the consumer that moronic that they need the who Gearslutz community to save them from the potential that this doesn't deliver, or even if it does deliver as promised, they aren't getting it and therefore still need to be saved?

Next time I buy a TV, or a cellphone, I really hope someone saves me from my own perception of what I would like to have or not have.
Of course the consumer is a moron but I didn't say he needs gearslutz community to save him. I just hate awful, misleading marketing. Of course most enterprises engage in such a marketing and that I find sad.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3351
Quote:
Originally Posted by sickie View Post
Of course the consumer is a moron
case in point.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3352
Lives for gear
 
paul brown's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
Your 'kool aid' maybe someone else's genuinely better quality option.
Jim Jones probably said something along the same lines!

if someone gets satisfaction from something, who am i to deny him/her that right? there is a downside, though. lots of discarded 'old' things in landfill making way for the 'better' new thing. if the new thing is not really better except for perception or bias creating the increased quality, isn't it rather a waste of resources and unnecessary littering of our planet so someone can make a few more bucks.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3353
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by paul brown View Post
...
by your rationale, a great story, written by a great author, is somehow diminished by the fact that they printed the book on really low-grade paper. i don't get where you are going with your train of thought. sorry!
I see his point, and I don't agree with it. I read a lot. I appreciate the look, the feel, the smell of a well bound book printed on good paper. But if the story is good, the quality (or lack of it) of the paper ceases to matter. The medium fades away and I am immersed in the story. It's the same with music for me. It's how I can enjoy an old, well played LP in spite of its imperfections.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3354
Quote:
Originally Posted by TREMORS View Post
Noone is arguing this.

Its when they start saying that those that choose differently are "rubes" or dont have ears.

This goes both ways, as this thread clearly demonstrates.

Both "sides" of this argument have engaged in this.
Hey, Tremors, your comment gives me a chance to make something clear -- since I have used the term rubes along with a few perhaps less than flattering terms in describing the cohort I can't help but feel much of the marketing is aimed at.

In no way do I mean to suggest that anyone interested in the Pono is a rube -- heck, I'm interested in it.

Maybe not interested so much in buying one, but if it proves to be a good unit, it's a good unit, right? And I want to know that -- and want to know about any real improvements of any nature it brings to the product class.

So no one should feel like I'm calling anyone interested in the Pono a rube. At all


But that said, and as I've said all along, some of the marketing of the Pono does strike me as exploitive and as playing on widespread ignorance of the technology and science. It is disreputable marketing, as far as I'm concerned.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3355
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
... This makes the ability to sell better sounding reissues very attractive to artists.
If it happens, I'll be watching the marketing with intense interest. "Our music, the way we wanted you to hear it - before the Loudness War."
Old 18th April 2014
  #3356
Lives for gear
 
paul brown's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisso View Post
The trouble is that most things creative are subjective.
all responses to creative things are subjective. for the artist, it is objective.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3357
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul brown View Post
if the new thing is not really better except for perception or bias creating the increased quality, isn't it rather a waste of resources and unnecessary littering of our planet so someone can make a few more bucks.
Sure, but no one can really appoint themselves the lord of 'better'.
By far the worst purveyor of newer is better is the tech industry, not the music industry.
As musicians, studio owners, record makers and indie labels we can't do anything to stop people ditching their perfectly good iPhone 4 for an iPhone 4s.
It's a widespread factor in our culture.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3358
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paul brown's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
I see his point, and I don't agree with it. I read a lot. I appreciate the look, the feel, the smell of a well bound book printed on good paper. But if the story is good, the quality (or lack of it) of the paper ceases to matter. The medium fades away and I am immersed in the story. It's the same with music for me.
me, too.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3359
Quote:
Originally Posted by paul brown View Post
all responses to creative things are subjective. for the artist, it is objective.
Not really.
Artists agonise over many creative decisions and often just end up going with their gut feeling, or even a whim at the time.
There are thousands of ways of achieving the same result, and very often the decision to choose a particular option is not 'fact' based (aka objective).
Old 18th April 2014
  #3360
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Hills View Post
It's the same with music for me. It's how I can enjoy an old, well played LP in spite of its imperfections.
Sure, but it's not an either or.
The story remains as good whether it is on a damaged medium or a pristine one.
That's why a restored negative from The Criterion Collection is a joy, and an enhanced experience over a faded, scratched negative.
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