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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 18th April 2014
  #3301
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Bennett View Post
The first thing we could do as responsible engineers is stop calling 24/96kHz 'high resolution' audio. It's nothing if the sort and confuses and obfuscates.

It's high sample rate audio - let's call a cat a cat. The term 'High resolution' implies some kind of analogy with the effect of increasing the pixel density of video or images, which is patently wrong.

Stephen
It is in a normal case, but would that stand in a situation that Chrisj described earlier, where it seemed there is a way to make the information in the audible band be depicted 4 times and hence that then would change the resolution once averaged, instead of using the high rate to record dog whistles...? Which may be what the Pono player does?
Old 18th April 2014
  #3302
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rd Degree View Post
I have never seen another product come to the market that people will discount it's potential merits based off of possible placebo effects.
A lot of people here have taken a position and that's just how it is dang nabbit.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3303
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Bennett View Post
The first thing we could do as responsible engineers is stop calling 24/96kHz 'high resolution' audio. It's nothing if the sort and confuses and obfuscates.

It's high sample rate audio - let's call a cat a cat. The term 'High resolution' implies some kind of analogy with the effect of increasing the pixel density of video or images, which is patently wrong.

Stephen
Maybe that's actually where I was unclear. I thought high resolution audio was a combination of a higher sample rate and a higher bit depth since nobody has called 16 bit/96khz high resolution audio in this thread that I have seen. I apologize if I have been confusing people myself but I thought the 24 bit was part of this "high resolution audio" format.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3304
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
...I've noticed the smoothness when listening to vinyl as you turn UP the volume. When ever a record is playing I find myself wanting to turn it up, but in the case of CD's I find it not as enjoyable as I turn it loud and more often I find myself wanting to turn it down....
This is a good point - I stopped going to raves when vinyl was replaced by digital...the integrity of the music was lost.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3305
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur Stone View Post
This is a good point - I stopped going to raves when vinyl was replaced by digital...the integrity of the music was lost.
There we go. Now, to me that is totally real. And again, confirmation that 16/44.1 pcm is most definitly NOT the final stop of audio goodness.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
A lot of people here have taken a position and that's just how it is dang nabbit.
Yeah, but in some was, some sort of placebo effect is unimportant when it comes to a consumer product anyway. For a consumer, it's not really about if it sounds better or not anyway, though I know that's the topic of discussion and how it is advertized. It's really about an experience, did I enjoy using this product more. You just can't discount that.

For example, I have had a slower car than another but felt it was more fun to drive. On paper, a faster car should be more fun to drive fast but it's not always the case. There is a lot of preference. So, if I am not racing, I am not a professional driver, it doesn't matter what can be scientifically proven, it all comes down to my own preference. That may be placebo, it may be real, but either way, it doesn't matter, that is my own experience. To the race car driver, the faster car is important in the context of racing, that doesn't apply to a consumer experience necessarily.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
This is the same thing I've been noticing for thirty years. I've noticed the smoothness when listening to vinyl as you turn UP the volume. When ever a record is playing I find myself wanting to turn it up, but in the case of CD's I find it not as enjoyable as I turn it loud and more often I find myself wanting to turn it down.
but you jump to the conclusion that it is digital that is the problem. could it not be a loss of dynamic range? you losing control of your volume control? i'm with you. much, if not most, modern recordings i find fatiguing to listen to. give me the old recordings with their shortcomings. the ones with dynamic range. i experience exactly the same sentiment that you do. i Love to turn great recordings up if the mood suits me. instead of trying to rewrite science, isn't it prudent to explore any other reasons why you are preferring vinyl? i posted one example of a massive selling modern release that has terrible dynamic range on cd (and high-res*) but acceptable/good on vinyl. different masters for different markets. might not that be a possible reason?

*high sample rate audio. Sorry!
Old 18th April 2014
  #3308
Gear Head
 

N. Young likes the recordings to reflect the sound in the studio. I believe he wants the chain from the studio to the listener to be as transparent as possible, by careful recording, careful mixing and careful mastering, and to be listened to on a transparent player. The ponoplayer is without doubt of high quality and the examples of the 'ponomusic' presented to the listeners in those videos likewise. I'm fine with that. Who isn't?
What I'm not fine with is the focus on the need for 192khz 'to brake the surface' and hear the music as it was meant to be heard. It is my impression that most of the participants in this thread has some problem with that too. Some thinks 96 is good enough. Some that 96 is more than we really need. Most is fine with 48?

And I believe mr Young has a really good sound system in his car.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3309
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H.E. View Post
N. Young likes the recordings to reflect the sound in the studio. I believe he wants the chain from the studio to the listener to be as transparent as possible, by careful recording, careful mixing and careful mastering, and to be listened to on a transparent player. The ponoplayer is without doubt of high quality and the examples of the 'ponomusic' presented to the listeners in those videos likewise. I'm fine with that. Who isn't?
What I'm not fine with is the focus on the need for 192khz 'to brake the surface' and hear the music as it was meant to be heard. It is my impression that most of the participants in this thread has some problem with that too. Some thinks 96 is good enough. Some that 96 is more than we really need. Most is fine with 48?

And I believe mr Young has a really good sound system in his car.
But then you are discounting the fact the Pono player seems to have a filter in its DAC that may demand the frequency roof be way high up there as the filter otherwise might shave way into the audible band. Which could account for the 'under water' marketing stuff .....which I agree, otherwise would be complete nonsense.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3310
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I still don't know what the "loudness war" has to do with Pono.

Are they saying they will refuse masters that are smashed too much?

Nearly every device that has ever been invented has been used for things it wasn't intended.

Even if Pono catches on, even if it has better DAC and better analog stages, better headphone amps, etc

What are they going to do to prevent the loudness wars???
Are they restricting the content that can be played?
Old 18th April 2014
  #3311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TREMORS View Post
I still don't know what the "loudness war" has to do with Pono.

Are they saying they will refuse masters that are smashed too much?

Nearly every device that has ever been invented has been used for things it wasn't intended.

Even if Pono catches on, even if it has better DAC and better analog stages, better headphone amps, etc

What are they going to do to prevent the loudness wars???
Are they restricting the content that can be played?
I understand that any music released on Pono must be approved by Mr. Young himself.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul brown View Post
much, if not most, modern recordings i find fatiguing to listen to. give me the old recordings with their shortcomings.
I'm not talking about the recording/production qualities. I am talking about old analog recordings released on vinyl as well as CD.

I am comparing the SAME recording on vinyl or DSD turned up loud compared to the CD version of the same thing. And you think that is mastering?

That doesn't explain my CD collection, as I have recorded most of my favorite records (and SACD's) onto CD for use in my car, about 120 CDs. I am comparing the same exact source straight or through CD. Same as the test everyone was begging be to read about. I've been comparing the two for decades. The result is always the same. I do listen to the CD's in my car, of course, I don't have a record player in there.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3313
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobro View Post
I understand that any music released on Pono must be approved by Mr. Young himself.
I admire the man as an artist for sure.
And he's certainly tried new things over his career.

But, what about EDM or hip hop or death metal or other genres?

If he is the gatekeeper, then the idea that it's all about fidelity starts to diminish.
To me.
That means im dependent on his tastes to some extent.

If its about audio quality, then i'd like to be able to listen to anything I want to in this "above water" format.

I admit I'm a cynic, but this seems more and more about selling back catalog, if that's the case.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3314
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Well, if that was the case, and it was sold in conjunction with a particularly well sounding player, all the better. Then folks will get confronted with the antithesis of the loudness war and react to THAT....and seemingly like it. How would THAT not be great?
I don't think do. Sheep... oops, I mean the unwashed masses won't suddenly understand that there is a loudness war going on and the problems that this 'war' brings to music. They'll just drink the Pono Kool-Aid and think that the music sounds so much better because it's 'high-resolution' 'vinyl-like' 'Pono music'.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3315
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
But then you are discounting the fact the Pono player seems to have a filter in its DAC that may demand the frequency roof be way high up there as the filter otherwise might shave way into the audible band. Which could account for the 'under water' marketing stuff .....which I agree, otherwise would be complete nonsense.
Yes, the filtering. It is unclear to me what technology is involved in the player but it would surprise me if it is that much better than what's already on the market.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3316
S21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by H.E. View Post
N. Young likes the recordings to reflect the sound in the studio. I believe he wants the chain from the studio to the listener to be as transparent as possible, by careful recording, careful mixing and careful mastering, and to be listened to on a transparent player. The ponoplayer is without doubt of high quality and the examples of the 'ponomusic' presented to the listeners in those videos likewise. I'm fine with that. Who isn't?
What I'm not fine with is the focus on the need for 192khz 'to brake the surface' and hear the music as it was meant to be heard. It is my impression that most of the participants in this thread has some problem with that too. Some thinks 96 is good enough. Some that 96 is more than we really need. Most is fine with 48?

And I believe mr Young has a really good sound system in his car.
I can see a real need for better headphones, better amps, and better DACs. I guess the challenge is how to get a consumer to understand this upgrade path when the general mindset is "my digital is perfect". Setting them on the 192k vs 44.1k path is an obvious way to do this. Selling hires content is a way to capture an ongoing revenue stream.

There is a white lie being sold in the marketing, but if the product produces more pleasing audio, good luck to them.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3317
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sickie View Post
I don't think do. Sheep... oops, I mean the unwashed masses won't suddenly understand that there is a loudness war going on and the problems that this 'war' brings to music. They'll just drink the Pono Kool-Aid and think that the music sounds so much better because it's 'high-resolution' 'vinyl-like' 'Pono music'.
It doesn't matter why they think it sounds better. If it makes them go "WoW" they will go find some more of it. And hence create a demand for more of it.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3318
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post

I am comparing the SAME recording on vinyl or DSD turned up loud compared to the CD version of the same thing. And you think that is mastering?
DR database is your friend!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
That doesn't explain my CD collection, as I have recorded most of my favorite records (and SACD's) onto CD for use in my car, about 120 CDs. I am comparing the same exact source straight or through CD. Same as the test everyone was begging be to read about. I've been comparing the two for decades. The result is always the same. I do listen to the CD's in my car, of course, I don't have a record player in there.
might it not be your burning that is causing the loss of 'resolution'?. the quality of the rewritable cd compared to a factory stamped disc? can't you see it is no longer the same source unless everything in your burning process, including cd rom transport, ripping and burning software, etc, is perfect. heck, the chemical coating on the rewritable cd could be a reason. why are you insisting it is the choice that goes against science. it seems like a strange stance to take considering the many variables in your personal experience. then, of course, there is bias. its a bitch. it comes in many forms. it has helped us survive so it has its uses! being dismissive of it, or claiming immunity, is also a strange stance. that goes against all the studies in heuristics, psychology, etc. another dismissed field of science because some rock stars make a video and some manufacturers make a device.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul brown View Post
maybe this is what Plush was getting at. this is a site for audio engineers. it should be a bastion against marketing mistruths when it comes to audio.
and here I thought it was for people who loved gear.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3320
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sickie View Post
I don't think do. Sheep... oops, I mean the unwashed masses won't suddenly understand that there is a loudness war going on and the problems that this 'war' brings to music. They'll just drink the Pono Kool-Aid and think that the music sounds so much better because it's 'high-resolution' 'vinyl-like' 'Pono music'.
While, what, "those in the know" have some super secret stash of music mastered differently not available to others? Some of the mastering engineers may, you may have some of your own work but isn't all that really the same. Pono is not just a format, it's not just a player, and though I don't really know about the masters, if it's part of it, it's part of the model. They are no different than 99% of us and what we have access to.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theblue1 View Post

But the MARKETING of this device is an insult to rational people who actually understand the technologies and perceptual science involved -- and a shameless victimization of those who don't.
This is freaking laughable. From all the posts that I have read you are an audio recording pro, or at least stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.

Are you telling me that MARKETING has not had any role in your selection of the mics, pre amps, outboard, monitors, consoles and DAW related equipment you have bought over the years?

Knowing that you have to answer yes, you then have the audacity to say that PONO's marketing is resulting in "shameless victimization" of those who aren't as discerning as you? LOL, ha, ha, ha.........

Let me ask you something, did you never but a Memorex cassette? (for you youngsters, they had a great advertising campaign back in the old days)

You sir are an elitist and completely full of BS, and by the way, 99% of the time I enjoy reading your posts, just to make sure this stays friendly.....(and I am sincere)
Old 18th April 2014
  #3322
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Dear Ephi, nothing wrong with being an elitist if you have grounds for it and theblue1 has those grounds (his knowledge about the subject) and he's not full of BS, Neil Young an Pono's marketing is full of BS.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3323
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TREMORS View Post
and here I thought it was for people who loved gear.
and the manufacturers are very thankful! Taleb has interesting things to say about technology. only time shows whether it is good or bad. our tendency, as easily biased humans, is to think that the newest must be the best. "all new" this, "all new" that. how often do you see it in advertising by-lines? marketing is based on psychology. they use the science to persuade us! in the case of pono, one science is used to miseducate the consumer about another field of science. clever, eh?
Old 18th April 2014
  #3324
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paul brown View Post

might it not be your burning that is causing the loss of 'resolution'?. the quality of the rewritable cd compared to a factory stamped disc? can't you see it is no longer the same source unless everything in your burning process, including cd rom transport, ripping and burning software, etc, is perfect. heck, the chemical coating on the rewritable cd could be a reason.




I'm talking about all CDs! store bought CD's, the ones I made on my Masterlink (which is noted for quite good converters), CD's I bought 25 years ago. CD's I bought last month. Good grief.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3325
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sickie View Post
Dear Ephi, nothing wrong with being an elitist if you have grounds for it and theblue1 has those grounds (his knowledge about the subject) and he's not full of BS, Neil Young an Pono's marketing is full of BS.
Thank you. Opinion noted.

I will repeat, I respect and immensely enjoy "theblue1's" contributions, as well as his apparent knowledge.

That being said, I think he is a bit off target on this one.

Peace.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3326
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3rd Degree View Post
While, what, "those in the know" have some super secret stash of music mastered differently not available to others? Some of the mastering engineers may, you may have some of your own work but isn't all that really the same. Pono is not just a format, it's not just a player, and though I don't really know about the masters, if it's part of it, it's part of the model. They are no different than 99% of us and what we have access to.
the labels have the masters. i'd call that a stash. i don't think it is a secret. the trend has been to release re-mastered versions so it is possible to have different masters. the trend has also been to make them louder. some of us think that addressing that particular point would be a far greater service to music appreciation than misdirection of consumers based on invented science.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3327
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ephi82 View Post

You sir are an elitist and completely full of BS,
Nah, he, and many others just got caught up on this "CD is as good as it gets" bandwagon, and ain't getting off until it eventually runs out of steam or crashes into a wall.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sickie View Post
Neil Young an Pono's marketing is full of BS.
Just curious, do you have an iPhone?
Old 18th April 2014
  #3329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
I'm talking about all CDs! store bought CD's, the ones I made on my Masterlink (which is noted for quite good converters), CD's I bought 25 years ago. CD's I bought last month. Good grief.
are you saying that you have never enjoyed listening on cd? to any release? from any label? every time you listened to a cd, you thought you were missing something?

and "good grief". don't you know that different formats have different masterings? i provided you with a link to a database. even different re-releases have different dynamic range. the information is all there for you.
Old 18th April 2014
  #3330
Gear Head
 

I hope there is a trend towards sound quality awareness. Lots of people care much more about quantity than quality.
But even to some professional musicians, quality in listening devices is not that important. What's important is the music. And music lives in the human mind.
Today my mind is not exactly what it was yesterday and therefore the music isn't exactly the same either.
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