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Launch of Pono Studio Headphones
Old 13th March 2014
  #301
Gear Guru
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Like almost everyone else here, I watched that first video a couple times and came away wondering how all those people who really should know better were drinking the Kool Aid to that degree. And they really are blown away by what they've heard -- they can't all be that good an actor.

I think I might know why.

Up to this point everyone's been assuming that the CD vs. Pono test is basically apples to apples.
it's actually an mp3 vs Pono - so rotten crabapples to watermelons


Quote:
Originally Posted by steveswisher View Post
Neil wasn't going to let me get high with him unless I said nice things about Pono.
I don't even think this calculation has to be conscious. Come on, the guy is right there, and the cameras are rolling. What are you going to say?

These testimonials are off the wall. It is a PCM digital file that (at best) is the exact same resolution as the original master that these musicians heard in the studio! How can it be the "best thing they ever heard"? Did Pono magically add some resolution to the master? Does the hand held pono have better converters/amp/speakers than the studio/mastering place?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
True. If my scenario is close to accurate the differences would be greater with older AAA back catalogue than with newer stuff, especially in the loudness war era. But if Pono catches on, people might start printing "Pono mixes" either to tape or to 24/192 with an unsmashed mix bus before they move on to the CD version. I'd be all for that.
People can already call for such mixes. And even at 16 bit, that would make more of a difference to the listening experience than hearing the smashed master at 16 vs the same smashed master 24! There are already sites like HD Tracks where you can download 96/24 versions of tons of music. If there is a market for this, why has it remained "silent" until this little device comes along?

smashed masters and the loudness wars are a matter of competitiveness, they have nothing to do with the 'limitations' of 16 bit audio. There is no reason to think that competition for attention will stop with more bits.

I asked this earlier and got no response:

How many people are RIGHT NOW downloading currently available Hi-Res stuff from HD Tracks and places like it?
Old 13th March 2014
  #302
Gear Guru
 
Karloff70's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
But we invented it right here. We made it up on gearslutz. It's pure speculation.

Now it's Pono's greatest feature? heh heh heh
Being cynical is easy.

It's either pure speculation or pure possibility through inspiration, leading people to change the way they do things. You take your pick, I know I'd rather stay open to the possibility of something good coming from this.

And if it gets to people putting down 'Pono mixes', that would mean the race is back on upwards instead of to the bottom, as people would do so for them to be most effective on a decent playback system and it is completely irrelevant what amount of compression (as in squeeze, not compressed file format) they choose to use, really. Just happens they'd likely use a little or a lot less.....
Old 13th March 2014
  #303
Lives for gear
and....Led Zeppelin just went 24/96.... because no one can hear the difference..... Led Zeppelin - Official Website
Old 13th March 2014
  #304
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

Here is a chronological list of people flipping out ecstatically in that video.

Marc Ford, David Crosby, John Platt, David Rawlings, Gillian Welch, Logan Metz,Mike Nelson, Lukas Nelson, Norah Jones, Eddie Vedder, Stephen Stills, Rick Rubin, Duane Eddy, Todd Moscowitz, Tom Petty, Sting, Jack White, Jeremy Gara, Wil Butler, Win Butler, Flea, James Taylor, Dave Grohl, Elvis Costello, Taylor Hawkins, Mike D, Chris Robinson, Elton John, Bruce Springsteen, Jackson Browne, Emylou Harris, Dave Matthews, Sarah McLachlan, Jim James, Bo Koster, Charlie Musselwhite, Jim Keltner, Jack Johnson, Patti Smith, Rob Cavallo, Anthony Kiedis, Bruce Botnick, T-Bone Burnett, Don Was, Kid Rock, Reggie Watts, Marcus Mumford, Ted Dwayne, Ben Lovett, Neil Young [of course], Beck, Joey Waronker, Jason Falkner, Justin Meldal-Johnsen, Mo Ostin.

The people listed in bold/italics are known for their work as producers/engineers. They may not be as accomplished or sage as those writing in this thread, but they've done alright.

- c
Old 13th March 2014
  #305
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skira's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Karloff70 View Post
Being cynical is easy.
Even easier is credulity. Don't be so openminded that your brain falls out.
Old 13th March 2014
  #306
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
Here is a chronological list of people flipping out ecstatically in that video.

Marc Ford, David Crosby, John Platt, David Rawlings, Gillian Welch, Logan Metz,Mike Nelson, Lukas Nelson, Norah Jones, Eddie Vedder, Stephen Stills, Rick Rubin, Duane Eddy, Todd Moscowitz, Tom Petty, Sting, Jack White, Jeremy Gara, Wil Butler, Win Butler, Flea, James Taylor, Dave Grohl, Elvis Costello, Taylor Hawkins, Mike D, Chris Robinson, Elton John, Bruce Springsteen, Jackson Browne, Emylou Harris, Dave Matthews, Sarah McLachlan, Jim James, Bo Koster, Charlie Musselwhite, Jim Keltner, Jack Johnson, Patti Smith, Rob Cavallo, Anthony Kiedis, Bruce Botnick, T-Bone Burnett, Don Was, Kid Rock, Reggie Watts, Marcus Mumford, Ted Dwayne, Ben Lovett, Neil Young [of course], Beck, Joey Waronker, Jason Falkner, Justin Meldal-Johnsen, Mo Ostin.

The people listed in bold/italics are known for their work as producers/engineers. They may not be as accomplished or sage as those writing in this thread, but they've done alright.

- c
Old 13th March 2014
  #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
and....Led Zeppelin just went 24/96.... because no one can hear the difference..... Led Zeppelin - Official Website
So, they've remastered the original 3 albums to be released on vinyl because mastering is BETTER now than it was in the 70s???? And 24/96 is truly critical to the Led Zep catalogue because of the shear dynamic range and frequency spectrum they're trying to reproduce? I'm sorry, this sounds very much like a cynical grab for cash to me. I love Led Zep, but how many versions of these albums are out there and why are THESE ones better than the last remastered versions?
Old 13th March 2014
  #308
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
Here is a chronological list of people flipping out ecstatically in that video.

Marc Ford, David Crosby, John Platt, David Rawlings, Gillian Welch, Logan Metz,Mike Nelson, Lukas Nelson, Norah Jones, Eddie Vedder, Stephen Stills, Rick Rubin, Duane Eddy, Todd Moscowitz, Tom Petty, Sting, Jack White, Jeremy Gara, Wil Butler, Win Butler, Flea, James Taylor, Dave Grohl, Elvis Costello, Taylor Hawkins, Mike D, Chris Robinson, Elton John, Bruce Springsteen, Jackson Browne, Emylou Harris, Dave Matthews, Sarah McLachlan, Jim James, Bo Koster, Charlie Musselwhite, Jim Keltner, Jack Johnson, Patti Smith, Rob Cavallo, Anthony Kiedis, Bruce Botnick, T-Bone Burnett, Don Was, Kid Rock, Reggie Watts, Marcus Mumford, Ted Dwayne, Ben Lovett, Neil Young [of course], Beck, Joey Waronker, Jason Falkner, Justin Meldal-Johnsen, Mo Ostin.

The people listed in bold/italics are known for their work as producers/engineers. They may not be as accomplished or sage as those writing in this thread, but they've done alright.

- c
I should add that Pono has so far made one million dollars per day. I tend to doubt this is just cloistered audiophile nerds generating this income.

I might be wrong, but I don't think I am.

- c
Old 13th March 2014
  #309
Lives for gear
In terms of hardware, at least the Fiio X5 folks are releasing specifics of the op-amps and convertors they're using, all we've got from Pono is "top quality". And the Fiio will undercut the Pono by at least $50 and have double (and potentially 16 times) the storage since it can use up to 1024 gig SD cards when they come out, two of them.
Old 13th March 2014
  #310
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People may well be throwing a million dollars a day at it.

People throw a lot more money at McDonalds EVERY DAY.

No one ever went bust under estimating the stupidity of people.

The HERD mentality is at play here.

This isnt 'normal' people.

This is marketing at work.

They may well pay $400 for the media player.

They will still PIRATE the content for it.

This is not the saviour of the music industry.

This is exactly what it is a cynical marketing ploy to make money from people who will believe anything they are told as long as its endorsed by famous people.

You can ALREADY buy AND play 'hi res' audio on media players RIGHT NOW.

For a lot less than this. That ISN'T anchored to someones shop.

FiiO x3 for example $200 if you shop about drives 600ohm headphones plays all formats is drag and drop and supports 24/192.

Balls to you and your walled garden of snake oil.
Old 13th March 2014
  #311
Comments withdrawn: Decided to make music instead.
Old 13th March 2014
  #312
Gear Addict
Quote:
Originally Posted by dylanr View Post
Hi def consumer audio may well have a future, but I doubt Pono is it.
It also has a past. Reel tapes, half-speed mastered LPs, quadrophonic, Elcaset, DAT, SACD, DVD-A, etc. Pono players will follow the same path.

Quote:
Originally Posted by numero6 View Post
Whether we support this project or not force is to recognize the need of a high quality music player the same way we have high definition TVs.
Those exist now. The FiiO players are just one of the portable options.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent Hahn View Post
Then Neil fires up the Pono version of the song. But this version is straight from the original 1/4" mix to a very nicely converted 24/192 file. None of the garbage listed above. So, not counting the digitalness, it's exactly what Stills remembers hearing in the studio (assuming Stills remembers anything) 45 years ago.
Oh, man. If Pono means we can have that, then it's the Greatest Thing Ever! (I still don't need the player, though. Just gimme them files and I'll play them via J River on my PC.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by joeq View Post
How many people are RIGHT NOW downloading currently available Hi-Res stuff from HD Tracks and places like it?

Caveat emptor, though. There has been some controversy surrounding many supposedly hi-res titles which appear actually to be red book format dumped into a bigger bucket. It stands to reason that anything originally mastered for red book won't benefit unless it gets remastered from tape or hi-res mixdown. In the Computer Audiophile forum, there are analyses of hi-res files to try to determine whether they're really more than red book quality. Not all are.

One true hi-res title I like is Alison Krauss' "Paper Airplane," which is one of the late Mike Shipley's finest achievements. If you can avail yourself of a listen to this through some quality equipment, you may be pleased.

Cheers,
Eddie
Old 13th March 2014
  #313
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earshotaudio's Avatar
 

I have just read this entire 13 page blog.
Here’s the deal as I see it and you may or may not care who I am or what I’m about to say.
Having worked with Neil Young. Having sat in the audience as a fan of his music.
Having listened to his recordings and his concerts all prior to working for him, there is no doubt that Neil is acutely aware of the short fallings in today’s music delivery systems.
In the days of old, when you had a nice modestly priced hi-fi stereo system and were listening to a piece of vinyl spinning @ 33.3rpms or 45rpms you experienced music in a way that is not available when listening to an MP3 or CD for that matter.

That is an audible difference between the analog and digital formats.
This is part of the point. If you’ve never sat in a recording studio and listened to music being played back from the multi-track or even the halftrack then you have no benchmark to judge from. If you’ve never gone into the “special room” at your local hi-fi dealer and listened to a piece of vinyl on the big money stereo systems than again you have no benchmark to judge from.

If you have listened to vinyl and CDs and can’t hear the difference than PONO is not for you. If you can hear a difference then this is an opportunity to have that kind of listening experience again.

I gave my wife a turntable and an old piece of hi-fi gear and speakers for her office a few months ago. She wanted to start listening to vinyl again in her new office. She works in the music industry. She also listens to SPOTIFY all day long. Even to her untrained ears she constantly remarks, as do her fellow workers, the immediate difference in the two delivery systems. This is listening through the same hi-fi gear and speakers. She says people come into her office when she is playing vinyl.
It sounds THAT GOOD.

This is what PONO and PONOmusic is about. Music that sounds good.

Having music available in a delivery system that has not been truncated in mastering. Full uncompressed audio that was recorded via analog tape or digitally at the highest sample rate and being played back at that highest sample rate.
In a player that is built with better quality components than the average phone or iPod.

Not 44.1/16 CD quality audio. Not AIFF or FLAC files that come from the CD master.
or 96K files for that matter. 192K files.

Artists record at low sample rates because that's the way it is delivered.
PONO can hopefully change that. It will give the artists a way to deliver their music at the highest quality available.

Does anyone out there use Amarra to playback their digital files instead of iTunes?
Can you hear the difference? If not, stop reading (if you haven’t already) and go listen to your MP3s through your iPhone with your $10 earbuds and enjoy.

Music should be enjoyed no matter how you listen to it.

Has anyone ever sat in a concert hall and listened to an orchestra?
Has anyone ever been to a Neil Young solo concert and was overwhelmed by the sound of his acoustic guitar? I can’t tell you how many musicians I know that play the guitar and wonder how to get that sound.
No compromise is how. Using the best that is available is how.

Neil Young is giving us a choice. That’s all. He is frustrated that his music which he puts his blood, sweat and tears into is being heard by many in a poorly developed delivery system that was adopted in the early age of digital music.

And yes, you have to purchase this music again so it is a way for record companies to make additional sales. Big deal. How many times have you purchased the same music on different formats?

Don’t be so fast to pooh-pooh PONO. Borrow a friend’s PONO player when you can and give it a listen. You’ll be happily surprised.

I do not work for Neil Young and have no affiliation with PONO or PONOmusic.
I am just a guy who believes like Neil that the way we listen to music has lost something and I want that something back.
Old 13th March 2014
  #314
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bogosort's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
and....Led Zeppelin just went 24/96.... because no one can hear the difference..... Led Zeppelin - Official Website
Hilarious. An extra 8 bits to encode all that tape hiss. And the only thing doubling the bandwidth is going to do is add 6 more dB of noise!
Old 13th March 2014
  #315
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sleepingbag's Avatar
Quote:
I am just a guy who believes like Neil that the way we listen to music has lost something and I want that something back.
what we have apparently lost and what he is giving you back is an extra 50 db of dynamic range that will never be used in any practical mastering situation imaginable though
Old 13th March 2014
  #316
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by earshotaudio View Post
I have just read this entire 13 page blog.
Here’s the deal as I see it and you may or may not care who I am or what I’m about to say.
Having worked with Neil Young. Having sat in the audience as a fan of his music.
Having listened to his recordings and his concerts all prior to working for him, there is no doubt that Neil is acutely aware of the short fallings in today’s music delivery systems.
In the days of old, when you had a nice modestly priced hi-fi stereo system and were listening to a piece of vinyl spinning @ 33.3rpms or 45rpms you experienced music in a way that is not available when listening to an MP3 or CD for that matter.

That is an audible difference between the analog and digital formats.
This is part of the point. If you’ve never sat in a recording studio and listened to music being played back from the multi-track or even the halftrack then you have no benchmark to judge from. If you’ve never gone into the “special room” at your local hi-fi dealer and listened to a piece of vinyl on the big money stereo systems than again you have no benchmark to judge from.

If you have listened to vinyl and CDs and can’t hear the difference than PONO is not for you. If you can hear a difference then this is an opportunity to have that kind of listening experience again.

I gave my wife a turntable and an old piece of hi-fi gear and speakers for her office a few months ago. She wanted to start listening to vinyl again in her new office. She works in the music industry. She also listens to SPOTIFY all day long. Even to her untrained ears she constantly remarks, as do her fellow workers, the immediate difference in the two delivery systems. This is listening through the same hi-fi gear and speakers. She says people come into her office when she is playing vinyl.
It sounds THAT GOOD.

This is what PONO and PONOmusic is about. Music that sounds good.

Having music available in a delivery system that has not been truncated in mastering. Full uncompressed audio that was recorded via analog tape or digitally at the highest sample rate and being played back at that highest sample rate.
In a player that is built with better quality components than the average phone or iPod.

Not 44.1/16 CD quality audio. Not AIFF or FLAC files that come from the CD master.
or 96K files for that matter. 192K files.

Artists record at low sample rates because that's the way it is delivered.
PONO can hopefully change that. It will give the artists a way to deliver their music at the highest quality available.

Does anyone out there use Amarra to playback their digital files instead of iTunes?
Can you hear the difference? If not, stop reading (if you haven’t already) and go listen to your MP3s through your iPhone with your $10 earbuds and enjoy.

Music should be enjoyed no matter how you listen to it.

Has anyone ever sat in a concert hall and listened to an orchestra?
Has anyone ever been to a Neil Young solo concert and was overwhelmed by the sound of his acoustic guitar? I can’t tell you how many musicians I know that play the guitar and wonder how to get that sound.
No compromise is how. Using the best that is available is how.

Neil Young is giving us a choice. That’s all. He is frustrated that his music which he puts his blood, sweat and tears into is being heard by many in a poorly developed delivery system that was adopted in the early age of digital music.

And yes, you have to purchase this music again so it is a way for record companies to make additional sales. Big deal. How many times have you purchased the same music on different formats?

Don’t be so fast to pooh-pooh PONO. Borrow a friend’s PONO player when you can and give it a listen. You’ll be happily surprised.

I do not work for Neil Young and have no affiliation with PONO or PONOmusic.
I am just a guy who believes like Neil that the way we listen to music has lost something and I want that something back.

my issue is that if you read this thread, half the people in it cant hear a difference from CD to 24/192.... and this a recording gear forum!!!!
Just boggles my mind.
Old 13th March 2014
  #317
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

Like all of you, I have not heard Pono. However, I wil say this.

For a few years, I remastered classic old records for a living. I don't do this much anymore; but I enjoyed it while I did. I used to do my analog tape transfers at The Magic Shop's Blue Room. Like everything else at The Magic Shop [one of the best studios in the world if you ask me], the Blue Room is exquisite.

We would listen to the master tapes straight off the ATR102 heads and audition various formats and resolutions. We listened on ATC monitors, often quite loudly. [Related: Note to self: buy a pair of ATC's someday!] This included high-rate/high-bit PCM as well as DSD. I know you guys are really persnickety about converters and gear; you can read about their stuff on the site. It's all pretty nice stuff.

I'm no audiophile --- I have a lot of contempt for audiophiles actually; I think they're largely horrible, antisocial, dorky middle-age dicks with ponytails and terrible effing taste in music --- but lemme tell you: In that environment and circumstance with already great and great-sounding music that I knew well, there is no question I could discern and perceive differences between lower bit depths/sampling rates and higher ones. Personally I ended up liking DSD the most, but that's another story. We all talked about that slightly glum feeling you have realizing that most people will never hear a beautiful half-inch master playing raw into an amplifier powering ATC monitors. None of my clients were interested in putting out SACD's at that point because it was clear they weren't going to sell. [The main reason for this was mismarketing and overpricing, in my opinion.]

Now, admittedly, I was working in a very expensive, rarefied circumstance. And I was working with great music from another era, recorded all-analog with great skill and care. But the difference in detail was striking. If you play it loud --- and you should play it loud! --- you can definitely hear it and feel it.

If Pono is anything like DSD in the Blue Room of the Magic Shop, I'm psyched.

I guess I'll find out a month from now. I'm one of the people who contributed to their current $3 million dollar draw. I bought a black Pono player.

I'm excited to hear it!

Will it matter for most of the music you and I record? No, probably not. You and I are probably not ever going to produce Radiohead's In Rainbows or Miles Davis' Kind Of Blue or Jeff Buckley's Grace or Gillian Welch's Hell Among The Yearlings or Neil Young's Silver And Gold or Fugazi's Red Medicine or Al Green's Let's Stay Together. Most working-stiff engineers are recording the people in their local community with small budgets and varying degrees of talent. I would say that, for those people, Pono isn't gonna make any difference. And it may make it more depressing than it already is.

- c
Old 13th March 2014
  #318
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by bogosort View Post
Hilarious. An extra 8 bits to encode all that tape hiss. And the only thing doubling the bandwidth is going to do is add 6 more dB of noise!
so you've heard these remasters already...how do they sound???
Old 13th March 2014
  #319
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bogosort's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by earshotaudio View Post
That is an audible difference between the analog and digital formats.
This is part of the point. If you’ve never sat in a recording studio and listened to music being played back from the multi-track or even the halftrack then you have no benchmark to judge from. If you’ve never gone into the “special room” at your local hi-fi dealer and listened to a piece of vinyl on the big money stereo systems than again you have no benchmark to judge from.

If you have listened to vinyl and CDs and can’t hear the difference than PONO is not for you. If you can hear a difference then this is an opportunity to have that kind of listening experience again.
This is a recording forum, I'd bet everyone here has had extensive time in recording studios; we're all music and audio junkies. We know what live music sounds like; we know what Red Book audio sounds like; and we know what 24/192 audio sound like. Of course we have a benchmark to judge from. What does vinyl have to do with any of this? Pono is digital; it uses the same exact technology as CD.

The problem occurs when people who don't understand the technologies attribute bogus properties to these technologies. And while it's one thing for audio engineers to debate amongst themselves whether or not higher sampling rates have a significant impact, it's quite another when a company makes a video full of industry giants gushing about night and day differences, all in the name of "saving music".

It's BS. I don't think it's malicious -- I'm sure Neil Young has the best intentions -- but it's still BS.
Old 13th March 2014
  #320
Gear Head
 
earshotaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Gioia View Post
It boggles my mind that you have this information yet you still think it should be a consumer format.

Do you record at 192kHz?

YES. I record at 192K unless the artist I'm working with insists on a lower sample rate. It's his (her) music. It's his (her) call.
Old 13th March 2014
  #321
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

I must admit I record at 24/88.2kHz at the very highest.

I mix from two Metric Halo ULN-8's into an SSL X-Desk/X-Panda console [with various items of outboard] into a Burl B2 Bomber ADC.

I hate doing sound tests, they're boring and they make me feel like I'm turning into a science-y audiophile dweeb. But in my environment, with a quick audition, I was able to hear the advantage of 24/88. I wasn't able to hear the advantage above that. So that's where I stopped.

Now that Pono's arriving, I'm curious to explore beyond that.

I'm also excited to live in a world where people stop telling me that details don't matter 'cause "nobody's gonna hear that in the final product" etc.

- c
Old 13th March 2014
  #322
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bogosort's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by CarmenC View Post
so you've heard these remasters already...how do they sound???
I grew up listening to Zep on vinyl. They're the reason I became a musician so I am intimately familiar with their records. Yesterday while driving, Stairway to Heaven came on the radio; I guesstimated that the tape hiss was -70 or so dB lower than the coda. In digital terms, that translates to 12 bits of dynamic range. Even if my guesstimate was off by an order of magnitude -- 20 dB -- a 16-bit CD still has more than enough range at 96 dB.

Going to 24 bits then, the only thing modulating those last 8 bits would be noise. Worse still: tape hiss is broadband, so by doubling the bandwidth with 96 kHz sampling rate, you add more noise.

In short, 24/96 transfers of Zep's catalog is a terrible idea.
Old 13th March 2014
  #323
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earshotaudio's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bogosort View Post
This is a recording forum, I'd bet everyone here has had extensive time in recording studios; we're all music and audio junkies. We know what live music sounds like; we know what Red Book audio sounds like; and we know what 24/192 audio sound like. Of course we have a benchmark to judge from. What does vinyl have to do with any of this? Pono is digital; it uses the same exact technology as CD.

The problem occurs when people who don't understand the technologies attribute bogus properties to these technologies. And while it's one thing for audio engineers to debate amongst themselves whether or not higher sampling rates have a significant impact, it's quite another when a company makes a video full of industry giants gushing about night and day differences, all in the name of "saving music".

It's BS. I don't think it's malicious -- I'm sure Neil Young has the best intentions -- but it's still BS.
I apologize if some of my rhetorical questions were taken literally.
This is a gearslutz forum… where I've read more bashing on everything from soup to nuts over the years.

I can't and won't assume that everyone reading this "recording forum" has spent time working in a professional recoding studio. And know what Red Book audio is for that matter. Some might just be audio enthusiasts enjoying a nice read while having their morning coffee. Some might spend their time in their basements trying to make their recordings sound like The Beatles. Some might not care about any of it and just make themselves happy being able to do it.

What does vinyl have to do with any of this, you ask.
That is the $64 million dollars question isn't it.
And if you don't know the answer I'm certainly not going to tell you.

As I said, if you have a chance to listen to PONO, do.
If you don't like what you hear, no harm, no foul.
We live in a world of many choices. This is just one of them.
Old 13th March 2014
  #324
orastream been doin for some time though....
at this point anything is better than mp3 or any other lossy.
but 44.1-16 does the job reasonably well.
96-32 a little better and definitely good enough for any critical music 'enjoyer/listener' read consumer.

Andrew Scheps, "Lost in Translation: Audio Quality in Streaming Media" | Talks at Google - YouTube
24/192 Music Downloads are Very Silly Indeed


yep.
(but never the less; hands up for Neil and buddies though, the true revolution has to start somewhere!)
Old 13th March 2014
  #325
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael E View Post
So basically they compared a typical iPod + mp3 & high quality DAC (which Pono is) + flac?
No doubt the difference is huge.
Kinda like...what's better...2 airbags or 24? When 8 is all you would ever need.
Old 13th March 2014
  #326
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

Pono detractors: Aren't you excited about the prospect of a format that encourages an ordinary, average music listener --- repeat: ordinary, average listener --- to listen more closely? To care about what we do? The reasons why you chose an optical compressor for that channel vs. a vari-mu?

To stop saying "anybody can do it" or "it doesn't matter" or "it has no value" or "nobody will hear the details" etc.

Aren't you tired of hearing that? Aren't you a little bit excited for the slight cultural shift in the discussion? Aren't you excited for people to begin to understand why you bought that crazy, beautiful, expensive thing you worked so hard to afford?

Pono is not trying to take over the world. It's just trying to present a legit, stylish, exciting alternative for a niche market of passionate listeners. Kinda like vinyl.

Why hate it?

- c
Old 13th March 2014
  #327
This product alienates an entire age group. A) the market of people recording at way less than 192/24 is gigantic, and B) older baby boomers are either not gonna have enough knowledge or really, interest, in audio at 192. There's an age where the best of us will eventually stop hearing over 18k anyways.
My generation could and will care less about this than anything, and all the smoke and mirrors isn't gonna make this a lasting product
Old 13th March 2014
  #328
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bogosort's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
I hate doing sound tests, they're boring and they make me feel like I'm turning into a science-y audiophile dweeb. But in my environment, with a quick audition, I was able to hear the advantage of 24/88. I wasn't able to hear the advantage above that. So that's where I stopped.
Recording and mixing at 24 bits is a no-brainer; it lets us lower our signal levels, which gives us more headroom. As for sample rates, it is quite possible that your interface is optimized for 88 kHz (every designer must choose what to optimize), so it might indeed sound better on your equipment.

But for delivery formats the rules are different. While some highly dynamic music might benefit from 24-bit delivery (well-recorded classical music with huge dynamic range), it is massive overkill for the vast majority of music. That said, I'm cool with standardizing on 24-bit delivery for the sake of the few outliers that actually need it. However, double-, triple-, and quadruple-rate sampling is completely misguided for delivery. There is literally zero benefit. A 192 kHz sampling rate means four times the bandwidth of CD: why on earth would we want signal from 30 to 96 kHz polluting our music? There's nothing up there except tweeter-taxing hash.

Quote:
I'm also excited to live in a world where people stop telling me that details don't matter 'cause "nobody's gonna hear that in the final product" etc.
There's an enormous difference between claiming generally that details don't matter, and recognizing the things that really do matter.
Old 13th March 2014
  #329
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
Pono detractors: Aren't you excited about the prospect of a format that encourages an ordinary, average music listener --- repeat: ordinary, average listener --- to listen more closely? To care about what we do? The reasons why you chose an optical compressor for that channel vs. a vari-mu?
Who wouldn't love a more discerning audience? If that happens, even if accidentally, I'll be the first to sing the praises of Pono.

But what is tiring is the marketing BS. It feels just wrong and dirty coming from my music heros (I still love you, Neil).
Old 13th March 2014
  #330
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bogosort View Post
Who wouldn't love a more discerning audience? If that happens, even if accidentally, I'll be the first to sing the praises of Pono.

But what is tiring is the marketing BS. It feels just wrong and dirty coming from my music heros (I still love you, Neil).
Neil has been obsessed with this since CDs started.

Even as he was selling tons of CD's he was frank about how much he loathed them and how much despair he felt that we'd settled at 16/44 for no reason.

- c
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