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AMS Neve - Genesys Black
Old 21st October 2013
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by secretsquirrel View Post
Surely MADI is old news in 2013? Audio over IP?
How much is the Avid HD AUDIOOVERIP box?
Old 21st October 2013
  #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scott petito View Post
unless the 16 middle section faders do not have line inputs and only control daw functions..which they might...there is no indication they are analog ..other wise it has a potential of 38 or more inputs at mix
Cheers

Scott
I'm intrigued by the middle faders as well. What are they? Just for DAW control?
Old 21st October 2013
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by londonengineer View Post
How much is the Avid HD AUDIOOVERIP box?
Coming soon AVnu | Member Companies
Old 21st October 2013
  #64
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My MADI setup has been rock-solid, I see no need to reinvent the wheel. Probably veering off-topic rapidly though!
Old 21st October 2013
  #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by londonengineer View Post
My MADI setup has been rock-solid, I see no need to reinvent the wheel. Probably veering off-topic rapidly though!
True. MADI is a very mature & stable digital interface. Can't disagree.
Old 21st October 2013
  #66
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I applaud Neve and other console manufacturers for appointing the deep daw integration for us Hybrid style mixers.

Its an exciting time (especially if this is really $20K hahaha
Old 21st October 2013
  #67
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very exited at first about the $20K... sad face as I hear number of $40/$50/$60 K...

I guess it is way out of me league
Old 22nd October 2013
  #68
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I'm thinking its probably 32 channels on mix down...

8 Mic/Line + 16 (what they're calling) DAW returns and 8 channels in your 4 Stereo Aux returns...

The layout seems pretty obvious...
first 8 faders for the mic/line channels
next 16 for DAW returns... might be able to flip them between being faders handling actual audio and DAW fader controllers)

small faders for group sends
Old 22nd October 2013
  #69
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ARIEL's Avatar
I was thinking the same thing for the layout and fader control on this unit . Having the screen right in the center seems like a great idea .
Old 23rd October 2013
  #70
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It is encouraging that the lit describes the faders as 16 daw and tape returns so could be analog summing channels in that case

Cheers
SP
Old 23rd October 2013
  #71
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Not like people from either VK or Neve DO NOT read this forum.. why dont they chime in and clear the confusion/hype/mystique?
Old 24th October 2013
  #72
Nice aesthetics on the Genesys Black

Nice aesthetics on the Genesys Black, can't wait to hear it and I'm also curious of the price like others. Wonder what target market is this aimed at, ICON owners?
Old 24th October 2013
  #73
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scott petito's Avatar
 

Ok I got the word it will be under 50K ... But no details

SP
Old 24th October 2013
  #74
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If it's going to be 50k, it will face strong competition from the 16ch AWS, which gives you full 16 analog chs and another 16 faders for the best DAW control outside an ICON.

I'm curious how the 'Black' has implemented DAW control. In the Genesys, at least last time I checked, it was very precarious. For instance, you had levels on the faders and pans on the 4 rotary knobs on the master section. That was so counter-intuitive.

The lack of proper scribble strips, dedicated rotary knobs per ch for pan/aux/whatever and the absence of dedicated DAW buttons didn't help either. As the 'Black' has the same faceplate as the Genesys, I wonder if this time it's the central touch screen which will complement better the 16 DAW central faders?

The lack of further details only tells me this product is still in alpha stage, probably 2 years before it will function properly, just as it happened with the original Genesys. Hope I'm wrong.
Old 24th October 2013
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich View Post
If it's going to be 50k, it will face strong competition from the 16ch AWS, which gives you full 16 analog chs and another 16 faders for the best DAW control outside an ICON.

I'm curious how the 'Black' has implemented DAW control. In the Genesys, at least last time I checked, it was very precarious. For instance, you had levels on the faders and pans on the 4 rotary knobs on the master section. That was so counter-intuitive.

The lack of proper scribble strips, dedicated rotary knobs per ch for pan/aux/whatever and the absence of dedicated DAW buttons didn't help either. As the 'Black' has the same faceplate as the Genesys, I wonder if this time it's the central touch screen which will complement better the 16 DAW central faders?

The lack of further details only tells me this product is still in alpha stage, probably 2 years before it will function properly, just as it happened with the original Genesys. Hope I'm wrong.
Exactly and exactly where I am currently I am looking more at used aws900 s which will fall in the same price range....or less
Since I have an icon now the daw control is very important to me and even the ssl is just ok in comparison ...but I do not like the current genesys daw implementation so yeah a lot of unknowns still ...are those 16 middle faders also line /tape inputs for instance......and the touch screen is interesting but even the slate is not quite there yet in my opinion...would this be upgradable over time...? .what pres? 88 r or 1073? It looks like the same central monitor setup as the current genesys...vintage king only knows it will be under 50 k no other specifics yet...if it was going t be a lot less then that I think they would have played that up...the value is less about the dollar amount then the functionality for me so time will tell...the biggest questions for me are how many channels can be stemmed and summed and are there major improvements over the genesys as far as daw control....sonically I Have no issues.. Also will the compressors and a/d be ala carte I don't need any more....

Very interesting though..especially in light of the fact that the avid S6 after spending time with it is actually pretty happening but another animal....

Cheers

Scott
Old 24th October 2013
  #76
Gear Nut
 

Actually the red knobs that you see in the regular genesys can be used to control plug in parameters. But that is for DAWs like cubase, nuendo, logic. From what I gather, the red knobs can't control any of the protools parameters still.
Old 24th October 2013
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich View Post
If it's going to be 50k, it will face strong competition from the 16ch AWS, which gives you full 16 analog chs and another 16 faders for the best DAW control outside an ICON.

I'm curious how the 'Black' has implemented DAW control. In the Genesys, at least last time I checked, it was very precarious. For instance, you had levels on the faders and pans on the 4 rotary knobs on the master section. That was so counter-intuitive.

The lack of proper scribble strips, dedicated rotary knobs per ch for pan/aux/whatever and the absence of dedicated DAW buttons didn't help either. As the 'Black' has the same faceplate as the Genesys, I wonder if this time it's the central touch screen which will complement better the 16 DAW central faders?

The lack of further details only tells me this product is still in alpha stage, probably 2 years before it will function properly, just as it happened with the original Genesys. Hope I'm wrong.
I agree. We looked at the genesys before we went with a aws924. The reason being the buggy rep the genesys had and during a hands on demo it crapped out on us.
Old 24th October 2013
  #78
The black looks beautiful! But for DAW control, I guarantee it won't be nearly as useful as any Digi/Avid/Eucon controller. I recently sold my AWS, and I thought the DAW control wasn't great beyond transport and faders/mutes. Plug-in control was so cumbersome. I ended up mixing with the mouse 99% of the time. Also, when using AFADA, once you've got some automation on the analog side, you pretty much have zero DAW fader control. It's not SSL's fault, but HUI/MCU just doesn't offer all of the needed features. A new protocol has to be developed to make anything non avid/euphonix to be well integrated.
Old 25th October 2013
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thebeatless View Post
The black looks beautiful! But for DAW control, I guarantee it won't be nearly as useful as any Digi/Avid/Eucon controller. I recently sold my AWS, and I thought the DAW control wasn't great beyond transport and faders/mutes. Plug-in control was so cumbersome. I ended up mixing with the mouse 99% of the time. Also, when using AFADA, once you've got some automation on the analog side, you pretty much have zero DAW fader control. It's not SSL's fault, but HUI/MCU just doesn't offer all of the needed features. A new protocol has to be developed to make anything non avid/euphonix to be well integrated.
I agree . HUI is very long in the tooth now and very limited compared with what the Icon and now the S6 can do protools-wise. I can't see Av8d developing anything to improve the interfacing to non-Avid controllers. Why would they?
Old 25th October 2013
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pensionvictim View Post
I can't see Av8d developing anything to improve the interfacing to non-Avid controllers. Why would they?
They have. It's called Eucon. Eucon is open and supported by several DAWs already (Logic, Nuendo, Pyramix) and nothing is stopping anyone from using it AFAIK.
Old 25th October 2013
  #81
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Several years ago, when Euphonix was still an independent company, outside the realms of AVID, I asked SSL why wouldn't they adopt EUCON rather than mess with the limited HUI/MCU, and they told me it would be "politically incorrect".

EUCON was free for DAW manufacturers to adopt, but no hardware manufacturer ever entered the field. I think it's too much of a coincidence that neither SSL, nor Neve, API, Steinberg, Audient...etc didn't hop in. It can only be a matter of copyrights and licenses.

With AVID's controllers costing as much as a real analog modern console with DAW capabilities, it's clear that AVID wouldn't sell a single controller in the music industry (would still reign in post though), for the 24 faders and 24 soft knobs of the AWS, for instance, are all you need to control a DAW and do the usual custom fader groups, spill out VCA groups, or spread a plugin all over for direct control of each plugin parameter.

I'm sure the ball is on AVID's court.
Old 25th October 2013
  #82
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Well as an icon user, it is perfectly fine for music production.. Especially considering most users also have racks and racks of outboard like I do....I don't need to drop the names of how many top mix engineers have at least one icon surface to work with ....the question for me lately has been one of returning a bit to my roots... Namely a console I could make an entire record on ie pres, some compression , good monitoring and a good eq....like the good old days...
For tracking even on the icon I use limited Daw control , faders pan maybe some send assignments ...locator ...the rest is of course outboard
Mixing, the icon comes into play much more of course... All the above plus plug in mapping, automation, and of course nearly instant recall of everything ....

But with that said I find Editing from any surface much slower then a mouse so never use it ... Some plugs are still easier and faster to navigate with a mouse,

From what I see available the Ssl 9xx still provides enough Daw control enough analog channels and all the " classic " console work ethic I am looking for ...for instance I would not have any issue setting up in someone's living room or guest house and tracking an entire record with some good speakers and a laptop...to do that with the icon or any of the lower channel count consoles like the neve or API would require a lot more outboard.....although I am considering the API as a sidecar to my icon for front and back end ....the current Genesys looks good on paper but I was disappointed in the execution ....perhaps the black has more potential but as the pricing increases that potential diminishes ....as far as sonics go I have a lot of pres I use the 8801 preamps everyday and I have Apis and the ssl alphas I would consider the ssl pres and 8801 very close in sound ... Modern ...the api's are great of course but I find I tend to use them for specific things, guitars, some drums, bass ... The others ,while some call them boring are more general purpose seem to work well on most everything....however my 1073s are the most used.... But my point is if you can't make a good recording with any of these you need to reconsider your career....
Over and out

SP
Old 25th October 2013
  #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drew View Post
They have. It's called Eucon. Eucon is open and supported by several DAWs already (Logic, Nuendo, Pyramix) and nothing is stopping anyone from using it AFAIK.
Eucon is certainly NOT open! It is 'open' on the software side, i.e. DAWs and Plugins etc. but show me one piece of non-Avid hardware that can act as a Eucon controller!

The sooner everybody moves on to an open standard like OSC or something the better IMHO. Then products will get judged on their design and execution, rather than just exploiting a monopoly.

Rant over!
Old 25th October 2013
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by londonengineer View Post
. but show me one piece of non-Avid hardware that can act as a Eucon controller!
is it specifically not allowed or someone just not done it? I have no idea.
Old 25th October 2013
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drew View Post
is it specifically not allowed or someone just not done it? I have no idea.
I seem to recall it indeed is about licensing. Otherwise they'd all do it. It's just a matter of programming to conform to the protocol. Anyone developing a controller would be crazy not to incorporate Eucon seeing how much of the market runs Pro Tools.
Old 25th October 2013
  #86
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The d control and d command is not eucon so with regard to the tight integration of protools with these controllers it is not a factor.... It would however allow icons to control other programs like the S6 does.....
Old 25th October 2013
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jindrich View Post
Several years ago, when Euphonix was still an independent company, outside the realms of AVID, I asked SSL why wouldn't they adopt EUCON rather than mess with the limited HUI/MCU, and they told me it would be "politically incorrect".

EUCON was free for DAW manufacturers to adopt, but no hardware manufacturer ever entered the field. I think it's too much of a coincidence that neither SSL, nor Neve, API, Steinberg, Audient...etc didn't hop in. It can only be a matter of copyrights and licenses.

With AVID's controllers costing as much as a real analog modern console with DAW capabilities, it's clear that AVID wouldn't sell a single controller in the music industry (would still reign in post though), for the 24 faders and 24 soft knobs of the AWS, for instance, are all you need to control a DAW and do the usual custom fader groups, spill out VCA groups, or spread a plugin all over for direct control of each plugin parameter.

I'm sure the ball is on AVID's court.
When Avid bought Euponix one of the first things they did was implement the Protools proprietary control protocol into Eucon. This was specifically to (a) give the System 5 a huge advantage over other consoles that used HUI to control Protools and (b) give Avid a viable Large format console surface on the end of Protools (the Icon didn't cut it at this level).

Eucon embraced the control protocols of Pyramx, Nuendo etc as it gave (pre Avid) Euphonix a way to control these DAWs with pretty tight integration.

No other console manufacturer could implement Eucon because it was a Euphonix system. It would have been possible for other console manufacturers to implement their own versions of each DAW protocol (for example Pyramix's OASIS protocol). Some did, some didn't but the REAL Protools control protocol (the one used by Icon) was never made available to any other company.

SSL's response was probably just a smokescreen for "we can't".

I don't believe Avid will ever make the real, native Protools control protocol available to any other company because this is, in effect, their "crown jewels" and opening it up to other console/controller companies is not in their business model.
Old 26th October 2013
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pensionvictim View Post
When Avid bought Euponix one of the first things they did was implement the Protools proprietary control protocol into Eucon. This was specifically to (a) give the System 5 a huge advantage over other consoles that used HUI to control Protools and (b) give Avid a viable Large format console surface on the end of Protools (the Icon didn't cut it at this level).
Sorry. I have to correct you. The first thing they did was implement the Eucon into Pro Tools. The only thing they added to Eucon was add almost every Pro Tools command into Eucon for better control. I think what Avid needs to do is to also continue to allow other DAW manufacturers to incorporate Eucon and provide the level of attention that they now are doing with Pro Tools. Euphonix back in the day was all over this, but now after the acquisition things have slow down big time for third party. I think if they get back on it they would sell more consoles. They would have sold more Icon consoles if it controlled other DAWs.

But to get back on topic. I hope the price of the Genesys Black is low. And I hope the DAW control is worth it. This would be a great addition to my home studio as the channel count is perfect for my home work flow.
Old 28th October 2013
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mecaudio View Post
Sorry. I have to correct you. The first thing they did was implement the Eucon into Pro Tools. The only thing they added to Eucon was add almost every Pro Tools command into Eucon for better control. I think what Avid needs to do is to also continue to allow other DAW manufacturers to incorporate Eucon and provide the level of attention that they now are doing with Pro Tools. Euphonix back in the day was all over this, but now after the acquisition things have slow down big time for third party. I think if they get back on it they would sell more consoles. They would have sold more Icon consoles if it controlled other DAWs.

But to get back on topic. I hope the price of the Genesys Black is low. And I hope the DAW control is worth it. This would be a great addition to my home studio as the channel count is perfect for my home work flow.
Thanks for the correction!

I agree - let's hope the price is low. But I suspect DAW control will be HUI only.
Old 29th October 2013
  #90
So awesome. Basically what I need.. Just not into the price. I'm looking forward to a price announcement though.
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