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Waves and Abbey Road Studios present the J37 tape saturation plugin
Old 21st October 2013
  #211
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Dimmy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blues Bird View Post
Why? Jpegs and thumbs down won't help what I consider facts.

I like Daft Punk and once loved what they stood for. And get this, I listen to lots and lots of actual vintage music (the old disco DP references included), I have an irrational love affair with what tape can do to sounds and all. But then I'm also sane, and know that using a tape machine or an emulation won't make or break a record, a song or a mix in 2013. Daft Punk's love for exploiting all kinds of 'vintage' romanticisms or that they used "a million dollars", certainly doesn't change that, lend any relevance to tape or work even remotely as an argument for using it.
Old 21st October 2013
  #212
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Macsearcher's Avatar
using tape in the past was a completely different experience to using a modern DAW. Sure, it had a different sound to it but that was a relatively small part of the reason that it sounds so different. Track limitation, making decisions, waiting for the reels to rewind or fast forward etc. There is something exciting and final about rolling tape and it even affected the mentality of the musicians doing the tracking.
Tape sims will never capture the experience of recording to tape but they do offer some wonderful creative options.
Old 21st October 2013
  #213
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Blues Bird's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dimmy View Post
Why? Jpegs and thumbs down won't help what I consider facts.

I like Daft Punk and once loved what they stood for. And get this, I listen to lots and lots of actual vintage music (the old disco DP references included), I have an irrational love affair with what tape can do to sounds and all. But then I'm also sane, and know that using a tape machine or an emulation won't make or break a record, a song or a mix in 2013. Daft Punk's love for exploiting all kinds of 'vintage' romanticisms or that they used "a million dollars", certainly doesn't change that, lend any relevance to tape or work even remotely as an argument for using it.
Wow, for this you have earned yourself another one:



And please don't get me wrong: I am not a Daft Punk fan at all. For me they only stand pars pro toto for all those guys who say that even today tape still matters to get a certain audio quality to recorded music that you simply don't get without tape. And those guys deliver. What about you?
Old 21st October 2013
  #214
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retractablezing's Avatar
 

nor will they give you more than a fraction of the ubiquitous "tape sound", no matter how well a machine is modelled, since most of what people attribute to the sound of tape, even though they might not know it, is actually the result of several generations of it and the act of bouncing within the same deck.

bouncing, and what that does to a mix is a great part of what made the records from the 50s/60s sound like they do, including, obviously, the ones recorded at abbey road with this machine. that has been my experience of chasing that type of sound for years anyway...i like the sound of this plug, and i like the Ampex they modelled before, i don't think the Studer is better, just different, but until they find a way to model the cumulative effect of tape bouncing, it won't cut it. That said, they're great saturation plugins, absolutely.
Old 21st October 2013
  #215
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Dimmy's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blues Bird View Post
Wow, for this you have earned yourself another one:



And please don't get me wrong: I am not a Daft Punk fan at all. For me they only stand pars pro toto for all those guys who say that even today tape still matters to get a certain audio quality to recorded music that you simply don't get without tape. And those guys deliver. What about you?
Of course they deliver a good sound, but not because of using a bunch of tape. And in this context, you're implying that they deliver a sound quality that outshines the rest of the top 40 charts (?).

Why do they stand for "all those guys" to you? Because they made a big deal out of using tape, in the "tradition of the greats" for marketing-purposes, and because their marketing made it even to your ears – a non-fan. Which now talks about how great they sound due to using tape, even though he doesn't actually like the band in question.

My impression. Feel free to correct me, OR continue disqualifying yourself by throwing random rubbish and pictures my way.
Old 21st October 2013
  #216
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macsearcher View Post
...Tape sims will never capture the experience of recording to tape but they do offer some wonderful creative options.
Exactly, they can't duplicate the stress and the performance demands.

When options are limited and budgets are tight, people need to rise to the occasion. In my experience they'll frequently exceed their own concepts of what they are capable of by quite a margin. The closest I've been able to duplicate that experience with a DAW has been live recording without headphones and plenty of bleed between instruments and vocals.

We all hated the stress but it sure got results!
Old 21st October 2013
  #217
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jalcide's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteaxxxe View Post
sorry to spoil the party again ... but another tape simulation? really? why? I thought wed all be happy to got rid of that tape-bs with all that hiss and fuzz and ugly noise ...

I demoed some weeks ago the U-He thingie. yep, sounds like tape, sounds very tape-ish. and that was the reason I put the demo into the trashcan.

really, I dont get it ... who of you oh-the-good-old-days-boys would drive a VW Käfer from the mid-60s, because its so ... retro ... vintage ... analog ... whatever-ish?

really, I dont get it ...
Simply, it does things that can be sonically pleasing.

I remember back in the late eighties, when tape was king (pre ADAT era), the hit making duo Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis were fond of "printing" snares hot, for the saturation, compression and other non-linearities tape imparted. It became a not-so-insignificant part of their signature sound. Even my non-producer friends used to comment on the "pop" of their snares.

The Gold Baby "Tape" series of sample libraries is all about this (excellent products). If I can find time, I wanna do a comparison between Gold Baby's 909 to Tape vs dry 909 with some J37 treatment; see how close it can get (apples to oranges as that may be). Maybe do the same with some other tape and saturation products. Could be interesting.
Old 21st October 2013
  #218
I think both of these products sound really really great!

The EQ is pretty amazing at getting a nice high end with clarity. The preset curves are top notch for that 60's abbey road sound.

The tape simulation is awesome. Of all the emulations out there I really only have experience with UAD and Waves.

The Studer is very nice, but I almost wish it was modeled off Revox or older Tape-ier sounding machine.
The Ampex is a nice job, but im not a huge fan of the sound of the machine they modelled so I dont like the plugin. Too clean.
The Kramer 440 ampex is probably my ideal tape machine, but I dont think they modelled this very good. The distortion sounds bad on this one.
The J37 is has the nicest curves in my mind. It imparts a sound for sure. The tape distortion is ok, but if I comebine with some UAD Studer it gets where I want to be.
Old 21st October 2013
  #219
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Quote:
Originally Posted by contramark View Post
The Kramer 440 ampex is probably my ideal tape machine, but I dont think they modelled this very good. The distortion sounds bad on this one.
Wrong, it's modeled after an Ampex 350 transport with Ampex 351 valve electronics.
Old 21st October 2013
  #220
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteaxxxe View Post
sorry to spoil the party again ... but another tape simulation? really? why? I thought wed all be happy to got rid of that tape-bs with all that hiss and fuzz and ugly noise ...

I demoed some weeks ago the U-He thingie. yep, sounds like tape, sounds very tape-ish. and that was the reason I put the demo into the trashcan.

really, I dont get it ... who of you oh-the-good-old-days-boys would drive a VW Käfer from the mid-60s, because its so ... retro ... vintage ... analog ... whatever-ish?

really, I dont get it ...
captain obvious thinks you want to start a troll party so why not head to the /yawn/moan zone thread instead
Old 21st October 2013
  #221
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by contramark View Post
Kramer ampex is probably my ideal tape machine, but I dont think they modelled this very good. The distortion sounds bad on this one.
it's possible to make that plug sound bad, true.

like it was possible to screw things up with the hw...

reading the waves mpx kramer manual very carefully should help you make the best out of this fine tool.
Old 21st October 2013
  #222
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I suspect that the Kramer misunderstandings come from people who probably tried to turn all the knobs all the way up and thought it was going to be some radio ready sound.

I'm just a dumb artist but I bet that is not how musicians worked in those times.

Personally with Kramer I'm pretty subtle. If I heard distortion I did not like, well you know... I would probably turn it to a more useable level and leave it where I like it. This idea that you turn a device all the way up to hear the distortion and make judgment based off of that... well good luck on your musical journies.
Old 21st October 2013
  #223
Oh it's 351 maybe that's why I don't like it as much.

Would be amazing if UAD did a ampex 440!
Old 21st October 2013
  #224
Can't wait till they model the adat machine!!! :D
Old 21st October 2013
  #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by smoke View Post
I suspect that the Kramer misunderstandings come from people who probably tried to turn all the knobs all the way up and thought it was going to be some radio ready sound.

I'm just a dumb artist but I bet that is not how musicians worked in those times.

Personally with Kramer I'm pretty subtle. If I heard distortion I did not like, well you know... I would probably turn it to a more useable level and leave it where I like it. This idea that you turn a device all the way up to hear the distortion and make judgment based off of that... well good luck on your musical journies.
Exactly, lof of fine tools sound like **** if you push them hard, like compressors with fast attack and release doing 20dB reduction on a piano or equalizers with 12dB boosts at 3KHz on an already bright voice, saturation plugin like the Kramer with flux up to max and a hot input level...

Keep in mind that be it plugins or high end hardware if pushed to max, they will sound like crap in general, because it's not meant to be used that way...

So yeah, if Kramer sounds like **** at max flux and hot input, that's normal behaviour, as would the real hardware sound like **** too. So just back up the input, reduce flux, and enjoy the subtle but lovely enhancements it brings to mixes.

That's they way it should be used, sparingly.

Just my 2 cents...
Old 21st October 2013
  #226
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superwack's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Exactly, they can't duplicate the stress and the performance demands.

When options are limited and budgets are tight, people need to rise to the occasion. In my experience they'll frequently exceed their own concepts of what they are capable of by quite a margin. The closest I've been able to duplicate that experience with a DAW has been live recording without headphones and plenty of bleed between instruments and vocals.

We all hated the stress but it sure got results!
Great point!

I, for one, would welcome the The Bob Olhsson Session Clock plugin... limits your session to 12 straight hours then << BAM >> locks the session, encrypts the files and locks ALL exports. You're done... move on to the next song. Ooh, it could even have an emulation of a producer tapping on his watch while glaring up at your computer's clock when you were getting near time.

Seriously, I'd buy one.
Old 22nd October 2013
  #227
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OK finally got all the demos at once...the Waves AR, Satin, and Slate's VTM.

I grew up with tape so I was looking for that overall tape sound in a mix, not as an aux processor, etc.

So I put all 3 on the master and did comparisons on a R&B track, and to my ears the VTM just sounded the most like going to a tape machine, with Satin next, and Waves a distant 3rd. The Slate VTM really sounded good.

JMHO

TH
Old 22nd October 2013
  #228
Quote:
Originally Posted by oceantracks View Post
The Slate VTM really sounded good.
Old 22nd October 2013
  #229
Pow
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMRt_ZQM_7g
Sound test on drums
Old 22nd October 2013
  #230
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Ragan's Avatar
 

Don't click the above YouTube thing ^^^^^ It's most likely something bad. That profile just registered and is only posting what appear to be phony YouTube imbeds, probably just trying to get you to hit the link.
Old 22nd October 2013
  #231
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ionian's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragan View Post
Don't click the above YouTube thing ^^^^^ It's most likely something bad. That profile just registered and is only posting what appear to be phony YouTube imbeds, probably just trying to get you to hit the link.


Huh? I clicked on it and it took me to a youtube video of a demo of the J37 in ableton.
Old 22nd October 2013
  #232
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Ragan's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ionian View Post
Huh? I clicked on it and it took me to a youtube video of a demo of the J37 in ableton.
Oh, no ****? If that's true, my apologies. It was doing weird stuff for me, and the profile was just created a few days ago with only another YouTube embed that was doing the same thing.

*edit: the embed doesn't work for me but the link below it does. Sorry for the accusations, just trying to watch out for everyone's rigs. Lots of spam links/fake posts on GS these days.
Old 22nd October 2013
  #233
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slammy80's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by K-Slash View Post
Wrong, it's modeled after an Ampex 350 transport with Ampex 351 valve electronics.
Correct!

It was the exact machine used at Olympic Studios in the late 60's - to hear that very machine in action, turn up "Babe I'm Gonna Leave You" on Led Zeppelin I. (actually, that entire album was recorded on the machine that Waves used.) -- also, take a close listen to "What Is And What Should Never Be", especially the distortion on the drum track as it comes in via the chorus on Led Zeppelin II.

Waves really did a great job modeling that machine. It works quite well on very loud material - but, in my opinion, it really shines on acoustic material (at 7.5ips) such as Pentangle or anything looking for that early 70's psychedelic folk vibe. Completely amazing and untouchable in the plugin world for that (in my opinion). Slate's VTM takes the cake for the best newer tape machine models (also in my opinion). I sold my UAD equipment and went native after using the VTM demo.

1968 - Olympic Studios - Jimmy Page

Old 22nd October 2013
  #234
TNM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mfx View Post
Don't think this is covered in Mercury from what i can see. The latest addition and I maybe wrong, is the MV2 compressor in the Dave Audé EMP Toolbox. Not a lot else, think this is the usual EMI/Abbey Road Studio licensing products not covered under Mercury :(

Dissapointing but already have the excellent Slate Digital VTM and u-hes Satin along with other saturators - so I might miss out but save some money I guess


I'm very disappointed about the new policy it seems of wup and mercury to getting me anything so far. Mv2 is years old by the way. The emp toolbox is a collection of Daves current favourite waves plugins for edm.

Anyway I am not going to renew my wup, nor am i buying this on principle.. People that got mercury years ago yes have had a fantastic ride, but its all suddenly stopped for noobs.

The worst part for me is that I had most of the bits I wanted and used already, and upgraded to mercury cause there was a sale on and I thought well, for the next year I will get loads of free plugins, so might as well. Instead I lost all my individual licenses, all got tied into mercury and a massive single wup cost which was suddenly raised to $300 from $200, and I don't use anything I didn't already have. Such a horrible financial mistake, my bad, but their sale tempted me. Oh by the way it goes without saying this will be available much cheaper than their current "intro" price in the not too distant future. Remember the rs56 and intro offers for mercury users, then with the $50 coupon they gave out to all just weeks later and the mega sale, I got it for $40 LOL instead of the intro at $69 ish. Always best to hang on with waves. Wait, be patient, and if you want this plugin I assure you you will get it at a bargain price down the not too distant road.
Old 22nd October 2013
  #235
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mike1k's Avatar
The newest Abby Road plugin exclusions are a bummer, but in 2013 I did get the Manny Marroquin collection, GEQ Equalizer & Element Synth. Don't think there were any others.

I got my Mercury + SCC WUP for $180.00 through a dealer and used my WUP voucher to get the J37 for about $90.

Definitely a judgement call on the value of Mercury WUP if they continue to exclude new plugins though.
Old 22nd October 2013
  #236
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

Mercury doesn't include the SSL or Abbey Road plugs other than REDD. They've posted in the past that this is because of the terms of their contracts with SSL and Abbey Road.
Old 22nd October 2013
  #237
TNM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowrider View Post
well... im with you on that. paid WUP 240$ for Mercury and got what? nothing...
what new plugs we got this year 2013 for free? can recall of anything... at least nothing interesting... unless my brain RAM has some issues

i did the move with the RS56, but dont think im going to do this again...
paying additional 200$ for additional 2 plugs while i paid the same for WUP? a quick calculation will show that it will be cheaper without paying the WUP...
Bear in mind mercury wup is now 300 unless you renew it before within 30 days of renewal date.. So that kind of puts a bit of pressure on. I am wondering whether to just wup now and use it towards this, as even though I am not happy it not being included, I am starting to dig the plug in when used carefully. And it has little latency unlike VTM. Which in logic really matters for visual sync of playhead regardless of pdc settings. Hmmm could use this in logic and the UAD stuff when in cubase which is more and more often these days.
Old 23rd October 2013
  #238
Gear Nut
 

Although I probably wouldn't use this on the 2-buss, It would see some serious work duty on individual tracks. I just love the saturation and delay. worth the price of admission imo.
Old 23rd October 2013
  #239
Gear Maniac
 

Seems WUP make some people SAD
Old 23rd October 2013
  #240
Gear Guru
 
Jeezo's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Olhsson View Post
Mercury doesn't include the SSL or Abbey Road plugs other than REDD. They've posted in the past that this is because of the terms of their contracts with SSL and Abbey Road.
no big deal unless all brands take it as a reference Deal ....
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