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Chris Lord- Alge Waves SSL Presets Dynamics Plugins
Old 22nd July 2006
  #91
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zboy2854
Unless the McDSP EQ's are billed as "linear phase", then yes, you may hear phase distortion. Only those EQ plugins that are linear phase EQ's won't introduce such artifacts
McDSP sucks big time! Filterbank sometimes only follows the automation when it's own window is open, weird stuff... dfegad
Old 22nd July 2006
  #92
Gear Maniac
 
Plec's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by noiseflaw
lol! Oh man that's sooo harsh.

But it made me chuckle - Waynes World 'Audio Pre-Set' pack available from Waves,

No Way Dude!

Waaay!
For sure.. I would buy it in a jiffy!!

Cumpression Presets
* Awesomepression
* Banged Up!
* Crackzilla
* DefCon 5!
* Ok, Comp
* Over the Top, Totally!
* Smash-a-holic
* Smearalized
* Totalizer!

IQ Presets
* Asian Haiiiiiiii-End
* Come pimp my Ride
* Hi-Hat from Hell
* Japanese Haiiiiiiii-Hat!
* Kick de la creme
* Low-End Behold
* Snareagog'o gosh!
* Tom's xTra_Cheese
Old 22nd July 2006
  #93
Deleted bd1be4f
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plec
Oh jolly good!!

So know you mean that I can take the deep snare preset and use it on any snare sound and it will sound like a "deep snare"??

Presets are just as stupid and pointless in audio production as knowing just a single guitar riff and expect it to work every where. Sure.. it's great for the newbies who doesn't know what a EQ does, or how a compressor works etc... But seriously, I didn't quite realize that there were actual engineers out there that used presets in actual production???

"Damn.. that kick needs som more juice dude. AHA, no fear.. I just remembered I must have a preset for that here somewhere that'll make it happen!"

"Hmm.. you said you wanted a bit more of that "crackin'-****in'-snare"-sound. Well man.. I actually just have the preset for "crackin'-snare". Oh ok.. it didn't sound "****in" enough.. hmm.. sorry dude.. I don't have the right preset for that then."

"What's this... "mastered & loud", cooool. Yeah.. that really DOES sound "Mastered & LOUD". Wow.. these presets are truly amazing in every aspect... whooooaa!!!!"

"Nu-Metal Crazetorsion! Duuuude... I just found the uuuuuuuultimate distorsion preset man! You gotta check it out! Cool dude.. you know what.. I BET if you apply that piece of ultimate stardom to a kick drum... It will sound juuuuuust like a nu-metal kick dude!! Yeaaaaaaah!!"

Oh.. yeah.. I just figured it out. These things doesn't come with presets in the analogue world. Hmm.. maybe... and I'm going out on a limb here.. just maaaaaaaaybe that's the reason why most "real" engineers use hardware!!!

Hmm, then I guess you're not familiar with the working methods of some of the top mixing engineers in the biz, such as the Lord Alge bros., Bob Clearmountain, etc. These guys have signal chains and outboard gear set up the same way, where they will patch the same kind of signals through regardless of the project. Sure, sometimes a particular chain doesn't work well on a signal, in which case they patch into another "preset" compressor and/or EQ chain, and simply adjust input/threshold/EQ to taste. These guys have so many compressors that they actually CAN keep most of them set the same and just adjust input or threshold from one mix to another.

Most of these guys start with what amounts to "presets" that you claim to be useless. How do you think they're able to crank out a mix in 3 hours?

Clearly you haven't tried the CLA presets. If you did, you would know that while for instance, the "Deep Snare" preset won't be perfect right off the bat with every kind of snare track, it will definitely put you in the ballpark of that kind of sound, requiring just some tweaking (i.e. adjusting compressor threshold, backing off or adding more EQ or tweaking frequency, etc.), as opposed to starting from scratch on the signal and trying to get to a place with it that the preset gets you close to from the start.

Using presets is only a crutch if the engineer doesn't already know how to get those sounds without using presets. In other words, sure, Chris Lord Alge keeps most of his compressors set to certain settings or EQs a certain way, but if he had to go work in another studio and start from scratch without his own gear, he'd still know how to get the sounds he wants. For those who simply pull up presets and don't understand the thinking behind it, they're screwed if they go into another studio and don't have their presets with them.

Taking a cue from the top guys, I keep several of my outboard compressors set a certain way, like a stereo compressor I only use for background vocals that I know works great 95% of the time on backgrounds, and I never change the attack, release or ratio. If I'm mixing something where the backgrounds don't sound good through that compressor, I'll try a different compressor to get what I want. But 95% of the time my "preset" compressor works great on backgrounds.
Old 22nd July 2006
  #94
Gear Maniac
 
Plec's Avatar
 

Quote:
Hmm, then I guess you're not familiar with the working methods of some of the top mixing engineers in the biz, such as the Lord Alge bros., Bob Clearmountain, etc. These guys have signal chains and outboard gear set up the same way, where they will patch the same kind of signals through regardless of the project. Sure, sometimes a particular chain doesn't work well on a signal, in which case they patch into another "preset" compressor and/or EQ chain, and simply adjust input/threshold/EQ to taste. These guys have so many compressors that they actually CAN keep most of them set the same and just adjust input or threshold from one mix to another.
You know what... when I mix... I find myself using my compressors pretty much in the same manner every time because I have created my sound there. I might for example grab that ADL on a soft jazzy vocal to even some stuff out, or slam the hell out of a rock n roller with an 1176, or use a distressor in very similar ways to get my snare sound going. But you know what.. and get this.. 'cause here's the real kicker! THOSE AREN'T PRESETS!!! And actually.. even how hard it is for you to grasp.. neither are Clearmountains gear!

The way we usually do it here in "audio land" is that we "heeeeeear" a sound in our heads and use whatever gear we need to make it come true for us. The way you use presets is that you "expect" to find a sound you're looking for totally independent of the source material, instead of creating it with the proper tools. That's the difference right there sonny.

Quote:
Most of these guys start with what amounts to "presets" that you claim to be useless. How do you think they're able to crank out a mix in 3 hours?
Hmm.. let's see. The left part of my ass is saying "EXPERIENCE".

Quote:
Clearly you haven't tried the CLA presets. If you did, you would know that while for instance, the "Deep Snare" preset won't be perfect right off the bat with every kind of snare track, it will definitely put you in the ballpark of that kind of sound, requiring just some tweaking (i.e. adjusting compressor threshold, backing off or adding more EQ or tweaking frequency, etc.), as opposed to starting from scratch on the signal and trying to get to a place with it that the preset gets you close to from the start.
Let's see... recap for a moment there. I said "The way you use presets is that you "expect" to find a sound you're looking for totally independent of the source material". You know what.. you've just confirmed that for me again! Imagine that huh. Just to give you a different point of view.. that being mine in this case. If I'm looking for a Deep Snare.. I really don't start going through presets on all kinds of processors hoping to find anything that resembles what I'm going for. I reeeeeeeeaaaallly do try.. and I need you to believe this for me... I really do try to find (oh my gooood he's gonna say it..) a snare sound.. be it acoustic or sampled that DO resemble my impression of a "Deep Snare" first.. and then and by god only THEN do I tweak that sucker into perfection land!

Quote:
Using presets is only a crutch if the engineer doesn't already know how to get those sounds without using presets. In other words, sure, Chris Lord Alge keeps most of his compressors set to certain settings or EQs a certain way, but if he had to go work in another studio and start from scratch without his own gear, he'd still know how to get the sounds he wants. For those who simply pull up presets and don't understand the thinking behind it, they're screwed if they go into another studio and don't have their presets with them.

Taking a cue from the top guys, I keep several of my outboard compressors set a certain way, like a stereo compressor I only use for background vocals that I know works great 95% of the time on backgrounds, and I never change the attack, release or ratio. If I'm mixing something where the backgrounds don't sound good through that compressor, I'll try a different compressor to get what I want. But 95% of the time my "preset" compressor works great on backgrounds
And I say, I'm really happy for you.. I really AM happy that works for you. But boy.. do I have an issue here. You see, I'm that kind of guy that really doesn't know what background vocals sound like. I don't know how a guitar sound sounds.. or even how a snare sounds. I really don't know when a singer is opening his mouth if I'm getting a "vocal" sound or something more in terms of screaming I usually hear waking up in the middle of the night thinking about threads like this one. I really don't know that.. and so again I have a really tough time keeping presets around for sounds that I really don't know anything about yet. So there you go.. I'm happy you've found the right system for yourself.

"It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in argument."
-George W Bush
Old 23rd July 2006
  #95
Deleted bd1be4f
Guest
Quote:
You know what... when I mix... I find myself using my compressors pretty much in the same manner every time because I have created my sound there. I might for example grab that ADL on a soft jazzy vocal to even some stuff out, or slam the hell out of a rock n roller with an 1176, or use a distressor in very similar ways to get my snare sound going. But you know what.. and get this.. 'cause here's the real kicker! THOSE AREN'T PRESETS!!! And actually.. even how hard it is for you to grasp.. neither are Clearmountains gear!
Really??? What do you call keeping a piece of gear set the same all the time, and using it when you want a certain sound? That's NOT a preset?

Quote:
The way we usually do it here in "audio land" is that we "heeeeeear" a sound in our heads and use whatever gear we need to make it come true for us. The way you use presets is that you "expect" to find a sound you're looking for totally independent of the source material, instead of creating it with the proper tools. That's the difference right there sonny.
Oh, thank you for the clarification, oh wise and powerful mixmaster. fuuck Whether or not you want to consider the fact that guys like Clearmountain or the Lord Alge's keep certain pieces of gear set the same as "presets", it doesn't change the fact that they ARE presets. For instance, CLA has talked about how he has a particular 1176 that he keeps set a certain way and is his "in your face rock" vocal compressor, so when he wants an in your face rock vocal, he'll try putting it through that piece. So explain to me again how that's ANY different from deciding you want a deep snare sound and pulling up a "Deep Snare" preset??

Quote:
Hmm.. let's see. The left part of my ass is saying "EXPERIENCE".
Hmm, and the part of me who has observed a mix session with Clearmountain says the reason he was able to get the mix close to finished in under 2 hours was having gear "pre-set" a certain way that was a product of his experience. Your extreme ignorance on the subject is a clear indicator you've never sat in on a session with any of these guys. Yes, these guys have ears and experience for days, and that's exactly how they've figured out what settings they can keep on a lot of their outboard gear without having to change them.

Quote:
I said "The way you use presets is that you "expect" to find a sound you're looking for totally independent of the source material".
And ya know what? Contrary to what you may believe, it actually IS possible to take certain presets and completely change the character or sound of the original source material, and make it more like what said preset suggests. If you don't believe this, then you've obviously never explored how radically different you can make a snare sound simply by switching presets or settings.

Quote:
You see, I'm that kind of guy that really doesn't know what background vocals sound like. I don't know how a guitar sound sounds.. or even how a snare sounds. I really don't know when a singer is opening his mouth if I'm getting a "vocal" sound or something more in terms of screaming I usually hear waking up in the middle of the night thinking about threads like this one. I really don't know that.. and so again I have a really tough time keeping presets around for sounds that I really don't know anything about yet.
And you see, I'm that kind of guy that first listens to the source material I'm given to know what the source sounds like to begin with (crazy I know!), and THEN decides what kind of treatment to give. So if I listen to a song and decide the snare could benefit from a "deep snare" sound, and I pull up a "deep snare" preset, and it works, what's wrong with that? And if I don't think a deep snare sound will work, I won't use that preset! Fancy that.

Likewise, if there are stereo background vocals that sound like my standard background vocal compressor and settings will work with it, I use it. And if I think they won't--wait for it--I won't use that compressor!

Do yourself a favor and get off your frigging high horse and stop presuming that one way of working is the only valid or reasonable way of working, or that presets are useless, or that successful and established mix engineers don't have their own kinds of presets.
Old 23rd July 2006
  #96
Lives for gear
 
noiseflaw's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plec
For sure.. I would by it in a jiffy!!

Cumpression Presets
* Awesomepression
* Banged Up!
* Crackzilla
* DefCon 5!
* Ok, Comp
* Over the Top, Totally!
* Smash-a-holic
* Smearalized
* Totalizer!

IQ Presets
* Asian Haiiiiiiii-End
* Come pimp my Ride
* Hi-Hat from Hell
* Japanese Haiiiiiiii-Hat!
* Kick de la creme
* Low-End Behold
* Snareagog'o gosh!
* Tom's xTra_Cheese

Stop it Plec you're crackin' me up here!

I actually used CLA's Deep Tom preset on my toms (but I modified it a little), sounded great - really.

I have not really studied the pre-sets and channel pre-sets yet, though I certainly will.

I find his string presets to bright and too 'toppy' though and much prefer my own string settings,

however not being a 'rock mix' guy I am lovin' just messin and foolin' with those aggressive comp and channel settings, and I am learning - it's all good.

* DefCom 5! * comp pre-set - oh Yeah!

* Low-End Behold * - mmmm yes please


* Smearalized
* Totalizer!

You been having coffee with Roger Nichols?......
Old 23rd July 2006
  #97
Gear Maniac
 
Plec's Avatar
 

Quote:
Really??? What do you call keeping a piece of gear set the same all the time, and using it when you want a certain sound? That's NOT a preset?
No.. that's just a lack of imagination.

Quote:
Oh, thank you for the clarification, oh wise and powerful mixmaster. fuuck Whether or not you want to consider the fact that guys like Clearmountain or the Lord Alge's keep certain pieces of gear set the same as "presets", it doesn't change the fact that they ARE presets. For instance, CLA has talked about how he has a particular 1176 that he keeps set a certain way and is his "in your face rock" vocal compressor, so when he wants an in your face rock vocal, he'll try putting it through that piece. So explain to me again how that's ANY different from deciding you want a deep snare sound and pulling up a "Deep Snare" preset??
Imagine that! I too have an 1176 that I have set a certain way for "in your face rock". I have to put a sticker on that sucker now that says "Chris Lord Alge Preset" and really crank up my rates.

Quote:
Hmm, and the part of me who has observed a mix session with Clearmountain says the reason he was able to get the mix close to finished in under 2 hours was having gear "pre-set" a certain way that was a product of his experience. Your extreme ignorance on the subject is a clear indicator you've never sat in on a session with any of these guys. Yes, these guys have ears and experience for days, and that's exactly how they've figured out what settings they can keep on a lot of their outboard gear without having to change them.
No wonder he didn't keep you around. I wouldn't either...

Quote:
And ya know what? Contrary to what you may believe, it actually IS possible to take certain presets and completely change the character or sound of the original source material, and make it more like what said preset suggests. If you don't believe this, then you've obviously never explored how radically different you can make a snare sound simply by switching presets or settings.
IME, that's what a sound processor usually does. Change the source material I mean.

Quote:
And you see, I'm that kind of guy that first listens to the source material I'm given to know what the source sounds like to begin with (crazy I know!), and THEN decides what kind of treatment to give. So if I listen to a song and decide the snare could benefit from a "deep snare" sound, and I pull up a "deep snare" preset, and it works, what's wrong with that? And if I don't think a deep snare sound will work, I won't use that preset! Fancy that.
Seems to me I would've gotten the right snare sound before you would. With you going through all them presets first to see if anything would fit in.

Quote:
Likewise, if there are stereo background vocals that sound like my standard background vocal compressor and settings will work with it, I use it. And if I think they won't--wait for it--I won't use that compressor!
I wouldn't use that compressor either.

Quote:
Do yourself a favor and get off your frigging high horse and stop presuming that one way of working is the only valid or reasonable way of working, or that presets are useless, or that successful and established mix engineers don't have their own kinds of presets.
Touché my friend
BTW check out that signature of yours again would ya?
Old 23rd July 2006
  #98
Deleted bd1be4f
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plec
No.. that's just a lack of imagination.
Umm, no, it's simply a matter of choosing to work smarter, not harder. If you like to reinvent the wheel every time you want a snare to sound like a "deep snare", then good on ya. Me personally, I'd rather start with a preset that I know reliably puts me in that ballpark right off the bat and tweak from there. But hey, like I said, everyone has a different way of working. If you like to start from scratch every time and shun presets, who am I to say it's wrong? But by the same token, it's not very open minded of you to come in here and make some sweeping proclamations about how using presets isn't useful or valid, when for many engineers it is.


Quote:
Imagine that! I too have an 1176 that I have set a certain way for "in your face rock". I have to put a sticker on that sucker now that says "Chris Lord Alge Preset" and really crank up my rates.




Quote:
No wonder he didn't keep you around. I wouldn't either...
Umm, I wasn't interning or assisting, he was mixing a project of mine, Einstein.



Quote:
Seems to me I would've gotten the right snare sound before you would. With you going through all them presets first to see if anything would fit in.
Not really, but if that's what you need to tell yourself, have at it. But for me the proof has been in the pudding as they say, considering since I've started saving and utilizing my own presets in my mixing, my mixing time has been cut almost in half, while my results have been as good if not better.


Quote:
I wouldn't use that compressor either.
Great googly moogly, I think we agreed on something. This calls for a Kumbaya.

Quote:
BTW check out that signature of yours again would ya?
Funny, I'd say it applies as directly to you as anyone, considering you've clearly been ignorant of the working methods of some top mix engineers, not to mention judging a certain method of working as being invalid. I on the other hand, readily recognize that if someone chooses to work absolutely from scratch at the beginning of every mix, that's perfectly valid. But so is choosing to start mixing by selecting presets as your starting point. The mistake you've made is assuming that your method of working is the one "true" method, and anyone who doesn't work as you do is "wrong". As a wise man once said, if it sounds good, then it IS good. How you got to that point is irrelevant.
Old 23rd July 2006
  #99
Gear Maniac
 
Plec's Avatar
 

I guess you consider "mastering presets" a good starting point also. thumbsup
Old 23rd July 2006
  #100
Gear Maniac
 
Plec's Avatar
 

Ok, to sum things up for me then. I know you mean well, and I'm not so stupid as to not see your point. If you want to go extreme on presets you could argue that a certain type of compressor design in itself is a preset for a certain sound etc.

Let me tell you a story...
There is a very well known studio in sweden that does a certain genre. At one point in time they put out one of the most distinct sounds in the biz. Almost everyone wanted to have a piece of that success and have "that" thing that they put out. Now, the glory of it all is that they really took the concept of presets to a different level. The drumsounds where all ready to go, the guitars where hooked up and ready to go the vocal sound was all set etc... It didn't matter what kind of raw material you where going to record there it all came out sounding the same. It was cool for a couple of years, yet now they almost don't have any business left. Basically, that whole studio is one preset ready to go.

What can you learn from that...

I use presets sometimes on certain gear to fix some of what I call "technical" issues that for me always gets in the way of the musical aspects. These are settings that I never have to change at all due to the static nature of the sources. That's where I know the source material coming in will always need that "technical" preset. That's the only time I will ever consider a preset.. otherwise as you say it would be like re-inventing the wheel everytime. Of course if you're a songwriter doing demos of songs where the "production" part is mostly secondary it would be a good idea to have presets ready to go so you can concentrate on the task at hand, being the song and the music. But if you're a producer or mix engineer using presets to constantly make musical desicions I'd say you're really in deep water. Like the songwriter who relies on just one type of chordprogression, or the guitarplayer who always play with standard tuning or the studio mentioned above. In the end, everything is going to come out very similar and everyone will grow tired of it eventually. It's great if you want to save time and/or you really don't care that much about the thing you're doing IMHO.
Old 23rd July 2006
  #101
Deleted bd1be4f
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plec
I guess you consider "mastering presets" a good starting point also. thumbsup
Being that I don't presume to call myself a mastering engineer, only a tracking and mixing engineer, and I let real mastering engineers master most of my stuff, I wouldn't know.
Old 23rd July 2006
  #102
Lives for gear
 

This is semantics fellas. Everyone uses presets and works from there. If you have any experience at all, you'll know the sweet spots of your gear. It's always set up there and then you tweak depending on the source.

I don't understand why this is so hard to grasp. It has nothing to do with lack of imagination - it's engineering for Gods sake, there's nothing righteous about it.

Lately this board has been getting weird man.
Old 23rd July 2006
  #103
Deleted bd1be4f
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plec
But if you're a producer or mix engineer using presets to constantly make musical desicions I'd say you're really in deep water. Like the songwriter who relies on just one type of chordprogression, or the guitarplayer who always play with standard tuning or the studio mentioned above. In the end, everything is going to come out very similar and everyone will grow tired of it eventually. It's great if you want to save time and/or you really don't care that much about the thing you're doing IMHO.
Tell that to the Lord Alge bros., who have been at the top of the game for over a decade. I can consistently pick out a Lord Alge mix when I hear it, because of the way they run everything through the same gear with much of the same settings. But considering how many years they've been on top, the Grammys and chart success they've had and the money they've made, it doesn't seem to have hurt them. Oh, that I could be a fraction as successful as either of those guys has been with his "similar" sounding work....

As far as not caring about your work, I couldn't disagree more. Starting off with presets is simply another way of working, nothing more, nothing less. It doesn't mean you're "phoning it in" as far as trying to achieve great and appropriate results. Regardless of his or her workflow, any engineer who doesn't care about their work or doesn't endeavor to make the best final product they possibly can shouldn't be in the business. But that has nothing to do with how they achieve those results. If you the engineer are happy with the results, the client is happy with the results, and your target audience is happy with it, I don't see any problem. Mission accomplished.
Old 24th July 2006
  #104
Lives for gear
 
Eric Dahlberg's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plec
Presets are just as stupid and pointless in audio production as knowing just a single guitar riff and expect it to work every where. Sure.. it's great for the newbies who doesn't know what a EQ does, or how a compressor works etc... But seriously, I didn't quite realize that there were actual engineers out there that used presets in actual production???
All the top engineers I've watched work do have "go to" set ups they start off with. They choose mics they're comfortable with for the specific tasks & have a good general idea of EQ & compression settings to go with. Is that so surprising to you? EQ is obviously more of a moving target but I think most people have memorized their favorite compression settings & fall into habits with these settings (outside of threshold & make up gain, of course).

Do you approach every project with a completely fresh & blank pallette? While perhaps more creatively rewarding, it could also be seen as counter productive on some levels. Somebody like CLA is a hit machine, I can't imagine he has the time or energy to experiment the way a bedroom guy will. It's probably not worth the risk, either, considering people are hiring him for that CLA sound.
Old 24th July 2006
  #105
Quote:
Originally Posted by kats
This is semantics fellas. Everyone uses presets and works from there. If you have any experience at all, you'll know the sweet spots of your gear. It's always set up there and then you tweak depending on the source.

I don't understand why this is so hard to grasp. It has nothing to do with lack of imagination - it's engineering for Gods sake, there's nothing righteous about it.

Lately this board has been getting weird man.
But the issue is not you using your presets.

Its you using CLA's presets with the idea that you will make a mix sound like he does.

Which is the most ridiculous idea of them all.
Old 24th July 2006
  #106
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Dahlberg

Do you approach every project with a completely fresh & blank pallette? While perhaps more creatively rewarding, it could also be seen as counter productive on some levels. Somebody like CLA is a hit machine, I can't imagine he has the time or energy to experiment the way a bedroom guy will. It's probably not worth the risk, either, considering people are hiring him for that CLA sound.

CLA makes $10K a mix with points.

He has plenty of time to experiment if he wants.

I think it ridiculous that people think he mixes exactly the same way every time.
Old 24th July 2006
  #107
Here for the gear
 
Yukon's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor
CLA makes $10K a mix with points.

He has plenty of time to experiment if he wants.

I think it ridiculous that people think he mixes exactly the same way every time.
Well, he mixed 9 songs for us and it only took him around 2-3 hours per song. Each song had an average of 60 tracks, so if he doesn't the same way everytime how does he keep cranking them out? And how does the drums that I recorded sound identically the same as Green Days drums? I'm not knocking him but the guy has a formula that's cookie cutter and he uses it, and that's why the labels hire him (quality control).
Old 24th July 2006
  #108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yukon
Well, he mixed 9 songs for us and it only took him around 2-3 hours per song. Each song had an average of 60 tracks, so if he doesn't the same way everytime how does he keep cranking them out? And how does the drums that I recorded sound identically the same as Green Days drums? I'm not knocking him but the guy has a formula that's cookie cutter and he uses it, and that's why the labels hire him (quality control).
How long do you think a mix should take?

12 hours a song? 2 days? a week?


And did you tell him to take longer on them?

Did you not like his mixes?

I know Green Day got on his case when he was doing their mixes(and yeah they can be a**holes!!).

Weezer did the same to his bro TLA when he tried replacing the bass sounds.

But labels don't hire these guys because they are cookie cutter, they hire them for their sound.
Old 24th July 2006
  #109
Deleted bd1be4f
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor
How long do you think a mix should take?

12 hours a song? 2 days? a week?


And did you tell him to take longer on them?

Did you not like his mixes?

I know Green Day got on his case when he was doing their mixes(and yeah they can be a**holes!!).

Weezer did the same to his bro TLA when he tried replacing the bass sounds.

But labels don't hire these guys because they are cookie cutter, they hire them for their sound.
Do you really believe CLA was able to crank out a finished 2 hour mix of 60 tracks and not use his "presets" or formulas? C'mon.

Why do you think these guys have such a sound and distinct sonic stamp on the songs they mix? It's not just their ears, it's the fact that they choose to go with the same kinds of gear and settings most of the time. I know for a fact that when a new project comes in to TLA, his assistant will first prep it by patching all the tracks to their "usual" channels on the console, with the "usual" gear patched in. And in some cases, TLA can walk in, press play, and the mix is 85% "there" without having changed any settings or gear from the last mix.

This doesn't take anything away from these guys, obviously they have the ears and chops to know that if they do this and it doesn't sound good, they'll change things up and do whatever is necessary until it does sound good.
Old 24th July 2006
  #110
Quote:
Originally Posted by zboy2854
Do you really believe CLA was able to crank out a finished 2 hour mix of 60 tracks and not use his "presets" or formulas? C'mon..
No dude.


The reason he is able to mix as fast is because he's mixed thousand of songs in his life and he knows to his ear what he wants to hear right away.


The gear or not withstanding you have to have the ear to make the right choices.

If you really believe its all about the gear and the chains than dude you will be stuck in the same place all your life.


Quote:
Originally Posted by zboy2854
Why do you think these guys have such a sound and distinct sonic stamp on the songs they mix? It's not just their ears, it's the fact that they choose to go with the same kinds of gear and settings most of the time. I know for a fact that when a new project comes in to TLA, his assistant will first prep it by patching all the tracks to their "usual" channels on the console, with the "usual" gear patched in. And in some cases, TLA can walk in, press play, and the mix is 85% "there" without having changed any settings or gear from the last mix.

This doesn't take anything away from these guys, obviously they have the ears and chops to know that if they do this and it doesn't sound good, they'll change things up and do whatever is necessary until it does sound good.

I've known Tom since his days at Unique in the 80's and from the time i did sessions at South Beach Studios in the late 90's.

He and Chris have a distinct sound because of who they are.

Take all the gear away and their mixes will still sound like them.

It did in the 80's where Tom was basically doing everything off the SSL.

This whole preset concept has been developed by you guys.

Everyone who has engineered for years has a sonic memory of sounds and chains they like.

The concept of the preset is only known to the guy who doesn't know it because in his mind it justifies the fact that he has the ability to be just as good as "X" super mixing engineer.


Well i'll let you into a little secret...back in the 80's when here in town you had all working at the same time Chris and Tom, Andy Wallace, Bob Clearmountain, Jason Corsaro, Michael Brauer and every other hot engineer known to man, no one was sitting around jerking off wondering "i wonder what compressor this guy he is using for his sound" or "what reverb?".

They were all thinking how i can steal this guys client. What can i do to seperate myself and still get the top clients. "How can i stand out".

It was a competition of engineers and studios.

And that made you better and want to develop your own sound/mixing skills.


Nowadays its this namby pamby style of engineering where i drop a plug or gear chain i think i can sound instantly like my favorite engineer.

If i want my mixes to sound like an Andy Wallace mix...i'll hire Andy Wallace to mix it.

Same goes for the Alge Bros and whoever else is out there.

Because i've been engineering long enough to know that there are so many variables involved into some one's sound that there is no way i will sound exactly like that person.

I rather develop my own sound and let people hire me for that.

And if i am considered as good as those guys than so be it.
Old 24th July 2006
  #111
I am against the idea of sounding exactly like these 'famous' mixers/engineers.

However, I am certainly NOT against the idea of learning how they ply their craft. Knowledge is power...
Old 24th July 2006
  #112
Deleted bd1be4f
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor
No dude.


The reason he is able to mix as fast is because he's mixed thousand of songs in his life and he knows to his ear what he wants to hear right away.


The gear or not withstanding you have to have the ear to make the right choices.

If you really believe its all about the gear and the chains than dude you will be stuck in the same place all your life.
Umm, I must have missed something, but when did I ever say that ears and experience weren't still the most important part? I never said it was just about the gear or the settings. In fact, if you look back in this thread you'll clearly see I said that these guys know that if something they have patched in isn't working, they'll do whatever is necessary to make it sound the way they want it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that has to do with the ears, right?

That said, I just talked with a fellow producer who sat in with Tom while he mixed some of my buddy's stuff, who did in fact have most of his stuff patched in before hitting play, and with what he had patched and set, it almost sounded finished before he changed a knob. Yes, these guys have ears and experience to beat the band, and that's exactly why they're able to have their "go to" stuff that they know what it will give them.

Speaking of Michael Bruaer, if you go through the archives here on Gearslutz, you'll see that when asked about keeping compressor settings the same, he in fact confirmed that he does keep many of his compressors set the same that he runs stuff through, and will just change the threshold and makeup gain. If you like I can find it and quote it for you.
Old 24th July 2006
  #113
Quote:
Originally Posted by zboy2854
Umm, I must have missed something, but when did I ever say that ears and experience weren't still the most important part? I never said it was just about the gear or the settings. In fact, if you look back in this thread you'll clearly see I said that these guys know that if something they have patched in isn't working, they'll do whatever is necessary to make it sound the way they want it. Correct me if I'm wrong, but that has to do with the ears, right?

That said, I just talked with a fellow producer who sat in with Tom while he mixed some of my buddy's stuff, who did in fact have most of his stuff patched in before hitting play, and with what he had patched and set, it almost sounded finished before he changed a knob. Yes, these guys have ears and experience to beat the band, and that's exactly why they're able to have their "go to" stuff that they know what it will give them.

Speaking of Michael Bruaer, if you go through the archives here on Gearslutz, you'll see that when asked about keeping compressor settings the same, he in fact confirmed that he does keep many of his compressors set the same that he runs stuff through, and will just change the threshold and makeup gain. If you like I can find it and quote it for you.

The point isn't keeping the settings the same(everyone does including me), my point is trying to copy someone else's setting or setups with the hope that you will sound exactly like them.

All i am saying is its worth the effort to develop your own sound.


And its like nowadays everyone wants to skip this process.

No one wants to put in the thousand of hours to learn the process.

They want everything on a platter.

Its not that simple.

Everyone including the Alge guys will adjust their settings as they go or might change their mind in the middle of the mix and go in a different sonic direction.

But you won't ever know because you are not inside their heads and they are working so fast you probably wouldn't even notice.

It could be something miniscule or small to you but to them its what makes the mix.

This kinda knowledge only comes from hours and hours spent in the trenches.
Old 25th July 2006
  #114
Gear Maniac
 
Plec's Avatar
 

Yup, couldn't agree more with thrillfactor here. It's good to see someone else with real-world engineering experience speak up.

Did you hear about that guy a few years back when the Finalizer was cool? He had something mastered at Gateway and then he replicated the sound as close as he could with his Finalizer and called it the "Gateway Mastering" preset.

Hey, that is actually just as stupid as using the CLA presets! dfegad
Old 25th July 2006
  #115
Deleted bd1be4f
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by thethrillfactor
The point isn't keeping the settings the same(everyone does including me), my point is trying to copy someone else's setting or setups with the hope that you will sound exactly like them.
Ahh, okay, that's a whole other kettle of fish. And on that count I agree with you.

Quote:
All i am saying is its worth the effort to develop your own sound.
Perhaps, but then again I can't for the life of me pick out an Andy Wallace mix the way I can with a Lord Alge mix. Not that Andy's work isn't great, but that I consider him to be a "transparent" mix engineer, in that he doesn't impose his own will or sonic stamp onto the material, he simply makes it the best it can be. For instance, I find very little in common sonically between, say, Jeff Buckley's "Grace", Nirvana's "Nevermind", and Ben Folds' "Whatever and Ever Amen", other than they all sound great but completely different even though they were all mixed by Andy. So in his case, I would argue that he doesn't have a "sound" other than "good".

Quote:
And its like nowadays everyone wants to skip this process.

No one wants to put in the thousand of hours to learn the process.

They want everything on a platter.

Its not that simple.
I wholeheartedly agree. My point was not that presets are a way for noobs to circumvent or skip the traditional path of experience to be good engineers, simply that presets, however one chooses to define them, can be and are a useful tool in any engineer's arsenal, particularly for those who have over time developed and honed a particular sound or mixing approach.
Old 25th July 2006
  #116
Deleted bd1be4f
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Plec
Yup, couldn't agree more with thrillfactor here. It's good to see someone else with real-world engineering experience speak up.
Damn, I guess I'm not in that club. Does this mean I have to give back my Latin Grammy?
Old 25th July 2006
  #117
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
But the issue is not you using your presets.

Its you using CLA's presets with the idea that you will make a mix sound like he does.

Which is the most ridiculous idea of them all.
heh Well if your goal is to sound like someone else, your jobs has already been taken.


But lets get back to this cockfight for a second. I think the one guy is arguing about personal presets. He even made the case of a studio going broke because they had "one sound" - albiet their own.
Old 25th July 2006
  #118
Lives for gear
 
nlc201's Avatar
 

It's been said a few times but I think that what is valid about these presets is that they can be used as a teaching tool of limited sorts. I have no expectations about sounding like CLA or TLA. It's simply a matter of gaining a little insight into some ideas you may not have thought of. I always like to look at other people's mix settings while they mix just to see what's going on and what they're doing. Many times I'll find some exotic setting that I wouldn't have thought of in a thousand years and go, "hey, that's cool! I gotta remember that one!" That's what I did in my assistant days. I had my pre-conceived notions of how things "were" and how to use gear. Then I'd see some great engineers and break all my coveted conventions and blow my mind with something completely outside my realm of thinking. I remembered a lot of these things and put them in the ol' bag o' tricks and pull them out now myself when it seems called for. Now, I'm grateful for having experienced these because to develop every single trick through simple experimentation by myself would have taken years. Just because I'm influenced by something someone does doesn't mean that I'm trying to copy them. It's just added bits of information that creep into my style. We all stand on the shoulders of giants here. If we had to completely figure out everything from scratch ourselves, we wouldn't be getting very far. That being said:


I would kill to be able to watch a guy like CLA or TLA or AW mix. Not so I could copy them....I'd never be able to do that anyway. I would just really dig seeing a different and cool way of doing things (contrasting to my own style). I think I would get some very useful information that would influence the way I work. I would be forced to see outside my box which I can find myself limited by sometimes. I sometimes find my work getting stale and then I'll go watch someone else work in a totally different and unique way and find it inspiring. Since I (or any of my current clients) are not in a position to hire CLA to mix a track at the moment, the presets may offer some (even if just a little) insight into how he shapes various elements within a mix. I'm not saying that it's going to be instant CLA the moment you call up a preset of his. I just find it interesting, that's all. Maybe he's got some compressor or EQ thing that he uses that you may find is just the ticket on something down the road (but you might never have thought of doing that). I'm just trying to get some tricks here. Not imitate CLA's style. Maybe a little influence or inspiration, or maybe not....whatever. I at least think it's worth a few minutes of exploring before getting on the horse and declaring how stupid it is.
Old 25th July 2006
  #119
Motown legend
 
Bob Olhsson's Avatar
 

One nice thing about presets is that they force you to objectively listen and decide if they are working and analyze why they are not working. It's a way of introducing happy accidents into the process so you aren't limited by your own concepts.
Old 26th July 2006
  #120
Gear Maniac
 
Plec's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by zboy2854
Damn, I guess I'm not in that club. Does this mean I have to give back my Latin Grammy?
Does that mean I have to give back my gold record? Naw, don't take notice of me man... only pulling 'yer leg.

Start wherever you like. Like you say.. it's the end result that matters anyway. If it's good, it's good. Just don't like to see the newbies get fooled into thinking that "all I need is a preset".

BTW.. Where are all those grammys coming from? All I see is grammy nominee this, grammy winner that.. on all kinds of "gearsites" recommending all pieces of junk under the sun. I've never heard about 90% of these guys! I WANT A GRAMMY TOO!!
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