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-   -   HW Behringer FCA1616 (https://www.gearslutz.com/board/product-alerts-older-than-2-months/691580-behringer-fca1616.html)

ginetto61 20th October 2013 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fernand (Post 9521103)
Sorry, I've been away & swamped.
Has anybody been able to get the FCA
firmware back to the original shipping version
and compared latencies between the two
firmware versions on Win and OsX?

Gino:
Re: "standalone use"
I must be missing something. Pls explain.
How would you run it "standalone"? How would you get data in and out?

Hi Fernand,
i mean using analog/digital inputs without connecting it to a computer
For my need could be also more than enough given the quality of the dacs.
Maybe it is not how it is intended to be used
Thanks a lot
Kind regards,
gino

Nick Stavrakis 20th October 2013 06:14 PM

Usb connection problem on behringer fca1616
 
Could anyone help me please! This is the note i send to the internet purchaser of my FCA1616.

"Dear sir,

I have big problem with the FCA1616 that I received on 16/09/2013.
Until now it didn’t worked properly, sometimes the usb connection lost and then when I restart and reconnect it was ok.
I have load all the new drivers from Behringer site and still the same situation.
I have changed the usb cable and done everything possible but after sometime went off again.
Today the usb connection is not possible at all, the light in the front panel is always red flashing and never turn into blue when I connect the usb cable and the pc cannot connect. I closed everything and wait for more than 5 minutes and reconnect them. Nothing at all.
Please tell me what to do or how it will be repaired or replaced."


Do you have any idea that could help me?
It was not working properly from the beginning but i thought that was from the drivers or the usb-port of my laptop.Then i found the new drivers and firmware and your forum and i tried to solve it but now i don't know what to do except of asking for a repair or a replacement.
I also noticed that it was unstable when i used the coax spdif input and plugged an older m-audio as AD converter to get 2 more inputs.

Thanks in advance
Nick

jpmcneil 20th October 2013 06:16 PM

Fernand,
Thanks for the clarification. And glad you are back. Again, on my setup, instablility only when I "push" the processing. But I will try the "new" drivers (V 6.13)....tho they are now 4 months old. A true new driver update would be nice (hint, hint). I did contact Behringer US support directly, and they were prompt and somewhat helpful. But the info/command chain US>Germany>China (or maybe it's the < reverse) is....what it is. Ah, globalization, gotta love it. Is what it is.

jpmcneil 20th October 2013 06:27 PM

Thanks, Fernand
 
JpMcNeil:
Until we can get this sorted out, I would NOT
update the firmware, as we have no way at
the moment to revert, and there seem to be
new latency issues with the new firmware.
Do try the new drivers, and see how that goes,
you can easily go back to the old drivers.[/QUOTE]

Addendum: I just figured out how to reply with a
quote (I am trainable!...to a degree). I contacted Behringer US support (very prompt reply) and hinted (strongly) for really new driver update. They said they had to go through Germany>China, so didn't know about that. But, hey, they were prompt, and courteous. That's something.

Nick Stavrakis 21st October 2013 08:37 AM

First i want to thank Joe for his immediate answer on my message. Second everything seems to work fine now on my FCA1616 and recording and with latency below 10ms.
I am using a toshiba laptop corei5 and i want to record 10 chanels simultaneously (using an m-audio fast track pro on the spdif input).
i have tried also using asio4all driver for recording with the same results (higher latency but managed to get 2 more channels from my berhinger 502 usb)
i want to thank you all for your posts and help.
it was my fault i didn't understand the first time that i have to push the digital select button when i give the power to the unit.
Anyway i dont understand why they don't have put an extra on/off switch.

Jan Duwe 21st October 2013 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nick Stavrakis (Post 9521785)
Could anyone help me please! This is the note i send to the internet purchaser of my FCA1616.
"Dear sir,
...Today the usb connection is not possible at all, the light in the front panel is always red flashing and never turn into blue when I connect the usb cable and the pc cannot connect. ...."


Do you have any idea that could help me?
...
Nick

Dear Nick,

The red flashing USB/FW LED on the front indicates that the unit is waiting for a Firewire connection that is not yet available. A blue flashing LED would indicate that the unit is waiting for a USB connection. Once a connection is properly established the LED would light permanently. Please hold the Digital Select button depressed for abot 5s, while switching the FCA1616 on, in order to toggle to the other connection, i.e. USB=blue if you prefer.

Please allow me to suggest providing the Quick Start Guide to the purchaser of your unit, as it describes the selection of either USB or FW on p.14.

Regards,
Jan

Jan Duwe 21st October 2013 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loopt (Post 9496201)
I'd like to second this question.
And I will definitely buy the FCA1616 if its 8 line outputs are DC-coupled.

Mr. Sanborn, could you please fill us in on this question?

Dear loopt,
The line outputs on our audio interfaces, including FCA1616, are DC de-coupled (AC-coupled), which is de facto standard for audio equipment as Fernand had pointed out already. DC-coupled I/O is typically a feature of specialized (expensive) measurement or testing equipment, but it is not adequate in general purpose audio interfaces.

Regards,
Jan

Jan Duwe 21st October 2013 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ginetto61 (Post 9521614)
Hi Fernand,
i mean using analog/digital inputs without connecting it to a computer
For my need could be also more than enough given the quality of the dacs.
Maybe it is not how it is intended to be used
Thanks a lot
Kind regards,
gino

Dear Gino,

You are right, the FCA1616 is intended for use as an audio recording interface for any sort of personal computer. It has just the right feature set for project or home studios needing a small to medium number of quality mic/line inputs and monitoring outputs, for recording while mixing their projects in the box (DAW).
Joe had mentioned previously that we do have a nice 8x8 mic-pre and A/D-D/A converter as well, which may also be used for expanding the FCA1616 capabilities. But the FCAs are conceived to be USB/FW recording interfaces for a DAW, rather.

Best,
Jan

Nick Stavrakis 21st October 2013 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan Duwe (Post 9523417)
Dear Nick,

The red flashing USB/FW LED on the front indicates that the unit is waiting for a Firewire connection that is not yet available. A blue flashing LED would indicate that the unit is waiting for a USB connection. Once a connection is properly established the LED would light permanently. Please hold the Digital Select button depressed for abot 5s, while switching the FCA1616 on, in order to toggle to the other connection, i.e. USB=blue if you prefer.

Please allow me to suggest providing the Quick Start Guide to the purchaser of your unit, as it describes the selection of either USB or FW on p.14.

Regards,
Jan

thank you a lot it was my fault. joe already said that to me answering on a personal message i send him and now everything is working.

best regards
Nick

Fernand 21st October 2013 03:10 PM

Gino, the only way you can use a Firewire or USB Audio I/F is with digital audio data coming over the Firewire or USB bus, and being converted to Analog audio, or conversely, Analog audio entering the interface and being converted to digital data that is passed over the Firewire or USB bus.

The SPDIF input (over optical or coax) acts like an additional analog input pair, and the SPDIF output acts like an additional analog output pair. Sketch it out.

The 1616 has additional protocols possible on these jacks, and ADAT in addition on the opticals. The port numbering tells the whole story. In SPDIF mode you gain an input and an output pair, in ADAT mode you gain 8 ins and 8 outs. But they all go to/from the Firewire/USB bus. That's the purpose of these devices: they are specifically INTERFACES for a DAW.

There's no hardware routing matrix I'm aware of that would e.g. steer the SPDIF inputs directly out the analog outs. I suppose they could do that in the firmware, but it's kind of pointless for 99.9999% of the users. You can create whatever routing the DAW will permit inside the DAW computer. But without a DAW such interfaces don't do much of anything. Make sense?

Fernand 21st October 2013 03:23 PM

Nick, can you pls indicate if you are using the FCA1616 with the original firmware? Can you check which version for the firmware the USB driver displays? I don't remember if it's the USB or Firewire that uses a different driver for the 610 and the 1616. When you use the Behringer driver, how are you setting the 3 sliders? How do you determine that it's under 10 ms latency ? Can you pls document exactly?

With the "original" firmware on the 610, there was a strange problem: after a pretty long time, say working on a mix for hours, the playback would start degrading, as if the buffer was too small. Changing anything in the driver panel, up OR down, would clear it. Ever seen that?

ginetto61 21st October 2013 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jan Duwe (Post 9523487)
Dear Gino,
You are right, the FCA1616 is intended for use as an audio recording interface for any sort of personal computer. It has just the right feature set for project or home studios needing a small to medium number of quality mic/line inputs and monitoring outputs, for recording while mixing their projects in the box (DAW).
Joe had mentioned previously that we do have a nice 8x8 mic-pre and A/D-D/A converter as well, which may also be used for expanding the FCA1616 capabilities. But the FCAs are conceived to be USB/FW recording interfaces for a DAW, rather.
Best,
Jan

Thank you very much Jan
I already have a nice AD/DA from Behringer ,,, the SRC 2496
I was wondering if the new FCAs are better for this function (i.e. DA conversion)
I am more interested in the DA section for now.
Thanks again and kind regards,
gino

ginetto61 21st October 2013 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fernand (Post 9524033)
Gino, the only way you can use a Firewire or USB Audio I/F is with digital audio data coming over the Firewire or USB bus, and being converted to Analog audio, or conversely, Analog audio entering the interface and being converted to digital data that is passed over the Firewire or USB bus.
The SPDIF input (over optical or coax) acts like an additional analog input pair, and the SPDIF output acts like an additional analog output pair.
Sketch it out.
The 1616 has additional protocols possible on these jacks, and ADAT in addition on the opticals. The port numbering tells the whole story. In SPDIF mode you gain an input and an output pair, in ADAT mode you gain 8 ins and 8 outs. But they all go to/from the Firewire/USB bus.
That's the purpose of these devices: they are specifically INTERFACES for a DAW.
There's no hardware routing matrix I'm aware of that would e.g. steer the SPDIF inputs directly out the analog outs. I suppose they could do that in the firmware, but it's kind of pointless for 99.9999% of the users. You can create whatever routing the DAW will permit inside the DAW computer. But without a DAW such interfaces don't do much of anything. Make sense?

No more question. Understood. kfhkh
and thank you very much again Fernand
I will follow the 3D in silence and with the greatest interest
Because i have actually a PC that i could use
Let's hope that the drivers issues will be solved in the best way
Thanks again for disclosing your knowledge and results with us
In the meantime it is better that i search a 3D on pure DA converters shiee
Kind regards,
gino :)

ABEJ 21st October 2013 06:47 PM

Direct monitoring
 
Hi you nice people.
I just got my hand on my new FCA 1616 and have just installed it in my system.
(Win 7x64) So far I've just used the USB Connection and Everything runs beatifully.
But one thing seems strange to me; the direct monitoring "Mix Balance"!!
At fully clockwise (DAW position) should there not be any direct monitoring, or ???
The only change I got by turning the "Mix balance" Control is a change in the stereo perspective of the analog in signal, but the direct monitoring is never quitet and the mix balance act lika a second volume Control for the DAW signal. Am I doing something wrong here?

Thanks

ABEJ

ABEJ 21st October 2013 07:35 PM

Sorry for disturbing. Suddenly the "Mix Balance" started to work as intended. I cross my heart I did not do any changes it just started to work. Problem solved.

thanks
ABEJ

Fernand 23rd October 2013 01:36 PM

I just spent a few hours testing the firmware-updated FCA610 on Windows 7 64 bit with Cubase. The in and out latency times that Cubase displays (which actually come from the driver) seem higher than I remember them from before the firmware update. One strange thing is that I was able to get down to around 10 mS tonight on an unloaded 44.1 Khz Cubase session (with just a big sampled piano), yet most recently I wasn't able to run below 15 mS on a similar setup.

My testing was on an i7 PC with several sound systems concurrently connected, so I could switch drivers midstream.
  • A PCI M-Audio 1010LT card
  • A Tascam Firewire FW1082 connected over FW400
  • The motherboard's Realtek sound chips
  • The ASIO-4-ALL driver alternating with native drivers
  • The FCA-610 using the 11 and 13 USB 2.0 and Firewire drivers
I have started to think the high latencies shown with the latest firmware are miscalculated, and the latency on the FCA is actually better than what we see displayed in Cubase's Device Manager.

What makes me think that is comparing to the other Firewire, USB and PCI interfaces in context.

When the FCA talks to Cubase during adjustment of the buffers, the displayed latencies change immediately, before there's time to really measure, so these do seem to be calculated from data the driver exchanges with the app.

The "feel" of latencies that are shown as more than 15 mS RTL on the FCA is comparable to shorter latencies on other interfaces. When i see 25 mS it doesn't really FEEL like 25 mS.

It's also unlikely the driver control panel would only allow the long latencies that are shown; pushing the sliders all the way to the left still shows totals as around 10 mS in Cubase. Where do these high values come from if the driver control panel itself is showing low buffer values like 44 samples and times around 1-2 mS? These short values are comparable to what we see with other hardware, and the high RTL values are not. It seems something is wrong here. Either these drivers are exceptionally ineffective ASIO drivers, or there are errors in the calculated/displayed latencies. I may be mistaken, but I seem to remember much more plausible (and more acceptable) numbers with the previous firmware.

So, anyway, I believe there are still a number of subtle internal problems with these units negotiating their capabilities and correctly reporting their status to the OS. This was behind one of the problems with OsX. This is a tricky thing and mismatches are not unusual during driver development. But these drivers are not exactly fresh from the oven. We'd sure like to see some newer ones. Ironically, in the latency calculation the latest firmware seems to be producing results that are overly unflattering to the FCA, and not too helpful to the company's efforts. I would humbly propose that Behringer's driver contractors need to get on the ball!

If we the users are to run any meaningful tests, it would be essential to provide us with a way to re-install the previous firmware revision (and others in the future) so we can compare.

Does anyone have a standardized method for actually measuring Round Trip Latency that we can all use, so we aren't comparing apples and oranges?

Piszpan 23rd October 2013 01:55 PM

Fernand,
do you know this tool?

CEntrance -> Latency Test Utility

Fernand 23rd October 2013 11:33 PM

no I wasn't familiar with it but you'd better believe I'm gonna give it a try. Thanks!

Anything like that on the mac side?

jpmcneil 23rd October 2013 11:45 PM

FCA 1616 driver uninstall problems
 
As was suggested here, I am attempting to install the latest V6.13 drivers. I asked Behringer tech support if I should uninstall the V6.11 drivers first, they said yes. On my Win7/64 PC, the Windows uninstaller has been running for well over a half hour, saying "wait til uninstall is complete". I have never had this happen with an uninstall before. Any suggestions much appreciated.

Joe Sanborn 24th October 2013 12:47 AM

Dear Guys,

Our development team did some additional testing in light of what was reported in this thread.

As you can see from the test results, for a Native interface, the FCA performs very well.

You must keep in mind that Native interfaces do not use DSP and therefore have direct monitoring as an option to the engineer.

I have access to the prior Firmware and can send a download link to anyone who wants this firmware version.

Driver 6.11.0
USB
Stream Buffer 1ms, ASIO 2ms (XP= 10.36ms / Win 7 64 bit = 10.39ms)
Stream Buffer 1ms, ASIO 3ms (XP= 12.36ms / Win 7 64 bit = 12.36ms)
Stream Buffer 1ms, ASIO 4ms (XP= 14.38ms / Win 7 64 bit = 14.35ms)

FW
Stream Buffer 1ms, ASIO 2ms (XP= 10.29ms)
Stream Buffer 1ms, ASIO 3ms (XP= 12.31ms)
Stream Buffer 1ms, ASIO 4ms (XP= 14.29ms)


Driver 6.13.0
USB
Stream Buffer 1ms, ASIO (XP= 2ms 11.29ms / Win 7 64 bit = 11.29ms)
Stream Buffer 1ms, ASIO (XP= 3ms 13.29ms / Win 7 64 bit = 13.29ms)
Stream Buffer 1ms, ASIO (4m XP= 15.28ms / Win 7 64 bit = 15.28ms)

FW
Stream Buffer 1ms, ASIO 2ms (XP= 10.32ms / Win 7 64 bit = 10.32ms)
Stream Buffer 1ms, ASIO 3ms (XP= 12.31ms / Win 7 64 bit 12.31ms)
Stream Buffer 1ms, ASIO 4ms (XP= 14.31ms / Win 7 64 bit = 14.31ms)

Hope it helps.

Best Regards,
Joe Sanborn
Manager, Product Support
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER

Fernand 24th October 2013 12:35 PM

Hi, Joe, pls do PM me the link. I'd like to run a few tests with the old firmware, then repeat with the new firmware, with both 11 and 13 version drivers. Also old and new firmware on mac.

The driver version isn't as major as the firmware version. With which firmware and how exactly were these figures above measured? Are they full "round trip latency" ? What sample rate? Another question is how glitch-free the sound is at these settings, and how heavily loaded the DAW is. It really requires a more exact specification of conditions. The millisecond figures you provide don't say much, especially without specifying the sample rate. I'm amazed the development team is sending you such nonsense. Clearly they didn't write the drivers.

Let's see what we measure with the different firmware revisions, and be very explicit about the test conditions.

Piszpan 24th October 2013 12:58 PM

I have an impression that the company is playing games with us (users). While Joe Sanborn's replies are very polite and formed in a professional manner, the rarely answer the questions asked. Joe uses his posts as just one more occasion to market company's product, but the problems described throughout this thread are still not solved nor explained (I mean firmware/latency issues etc.).

Reading this thread, one could have an impression that normal end users have more understanding of technical matters than the company's tech support! Could this be true that in a multi-million international pro audio company there is no-one to UNDERSTAND what users are asking about?

Well, it looks that Behringer is rather avoiding giving direct answers. Corporate strategy...

Joe Sanborn 24th October 2013 06:17 PM

Dear Piszpan,

I just sent you our direct cell phone number, please give us a ring to discuss further.

The figures quoted are for the total input to output latency tested with the latency checker of CEntrance tool.

On any Native system, including the FCA interfaces, you have the following to consider in regards to latency:

- Latency A/D converter
- Latency buffer (this is what is chosen by the user in the control panel e.g. 3ms) for IN (into the computer)
- Latency buffer for OUT of the application (same amount of e.g. 3ms)
- Sometimes a third time latency buffer for stable performance
- Latency D/A converter, which sums up the latency values stated in the thread.
You can make your own comparisons yourselves using the tool from CEntrance (CEntrance -> Latency Test Utility)

Best Regards,
Joe Sanborn
Manager, Product Support
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER

jpmcneil 24th October 2013 08:56 PM

Dear Joe Sanborn,
Please refer to my recent post #259. Recommended here and by Care@music-group.com, that I uninstall FCA 1616 USB driver V 6.11.0 before installing new V 6.13.0. It would not uninstall, and literally hung my Win7/64 machine for HOURS, blocking ALL other uninstalls. I have had this system for several years, have done many uninstalls, this has NEVER happened before. I downloaded and tried a more robust uninstaller, but it came complete with malware. I finally had to use Restore Point, which fortunately worked. Not fun. There sits V 6.11.0, still. And I am reluctant to touch it. Very frustrating. I noted Piszpan above, I am not there yet, but close. It feels like you should be calling these drivers Beta. No offense, just saying. Please advise, thanks.

Fernand 25th October 2013 02:48 AM

I have swapped the FCA610 drivers several times on Windows 7 64 bit without doing any uninstall. Go to control panel Device Management and find the USB and Firewire Behringer drivers. Right click and then use "upgrade driver" then navigate on your disk to the location of either the 11 or 13 driver. You will have to reboot, but other than that it seems uneventful.

Fernand 25th October 2013 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piszpan (Post 9533127)
Well, it looks that Behringer is rather avoiding giving direct answers. Corporate strategy...

I don't think that's the problem. I speculate, but I believe there's a disconnect due to the drivers not being written by Behringer. That's not an unusual situation, because drivers are such a specialized and difficult type of software, very few companies can afford in-house driver development, especially companies whose main product line is purely audio, and not computer hardware. The contractor then moves on to the next project and can't quickly provide updates. Misunderstandings often develop over what exactly was promised. I know because I've been in those shoes. It's easy to understand their reluctance to get into these issues.

I hope to have the previous firmware soon. Joe has now indicated how they are measuring the latencies (CEntrance tool) so (at least on the Windows side) we can compare different interfaces, and different versions of firmware and drivers.

I think there are so many variables on a computer system that it's very difficult to sort out cause and effect. Drivers are always the knarliest software because they have to work at a priority level that very easily freezes the machine. Uninstalling drivers that are hard-wired into the kernel can be a bitch, accidents happen.

We'll try to get everything sorted out soon. Several people have experienced some specific issues, but most have not.

jpmcneil 25th October 2013 07:42 AM

Thanks, Fernand
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fernand (Post 9535317)
I have swapped the FCA610 drivers several times on Windows 7 64 bit without doing any uninstall. Go to control panel Device Management and find the USB and Firewire Behringer drivers. Right click and then use "upgrade driver" then navigate on your disk to the location of either the 11 or 13 driver. You will have to reboot, but other than that it seems uneventful.

Your assessment that it is problematic with the drivers being written by someone else is sadly correct. Behringer support was wrong, I did NOT have to manually uninstall the old drivers prior to update. The Install Wizard in the new drivers auto uninstall the older ones. Or are supposed to, it is quite clear when you open the Wizard. But it is hung again, been in uninstall/install mode for over an hour now. So maybe something messed up with the 1616 drivers, and/or install device. I agree with you that new driver issues are tough, but as I said before, having the issues spread out from US support>Germany>China, and then throw in an outside driver developer, no wonder I am becoming kinda fed up like Piszpan. The unit is a few days away from going back to Sweetwater. But I do appreciate your help Fernand.

Fernand 25th October 2013 10:31 AM

Try to reboot, then go to control panel Device Management. Find whatever Behringer drivers are on your system and manually disable from the right click dialog, then uninstall. Do this for all of them from there, not by running the uninstaller. Then reboot and make sure the drivers are gone from the Device Manager even if you plug in the FCA. Now do a clean install of whichever version you want to try, 11 or 13, and only plug in the FCA cable when it tells you to. Hopefully it won't invoke the uninstaller. I would guess your attempt to uninstall left some corrupted data, so whenever you go that route it gets FUBAR.

Did you update the firmware or not? I now supposedly have the updater with the old firmware, so I'll try running some latency tests then go back to the old firmware and run the same tests.

jpmcneil 25th October 2013 05:10 PM

Behringer support should pay you, Fernand
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Fernand (Post 9536037)
Try to reboot, then go to control panel Device Management. Find whatever Behringer drivers are on your system and manually disable from the right click dialog, then uninstall. Do this for all of them from there, not by running the uninstaller. Then reboot and make sure the drivers are gone from the Device Manager even if you plug in the FCA. Now do a clean install of whichever version you want to try, 11 or 13, and only plug in the FCA cable when it tells you to. Hopefully it won't invoke the uninstaller. I would guess your attempt to uninstall left some corrupted data, so whenever you go that route it gets FUBAR.

Did you update the firmware or not? I now supposedly have the updater with the old firmware, so I'll try running some latency tests then go back to the old firmware and run the same tests.

I will try this later today. I have spent so much time on this, I have other things to do. I have heard nothing from Behr support or Joe Sanborn. Very disappointing. Looks like Piszpan was right. If this doesn't work, and Behr does not contact me, back goes the unit, I take my good review down from Sweetwater, and begin telling "the rest of the story". Your help is much appreciated. BTW, latency has not been my problem, so am not going to mess with firmware. Especially not after this fiasco.

Joe Sanborn 25th October 2013 06:15 PM

FCA Questions
 
Dear Guys,

Below is information regarding a few questions posted earlier in the thread.

Question: “I wonder if the low cut at the preamp is a proper analog unit before A/D or is just a digital EQ...”

Answer: Low cut filter for the preamp is analog thus before the A/D.

Question: “How is the input signal level indicated on the front panel? I can see only one LED per channel. So, are these LEDs two-color to indicate both "signal present" and "clip"
Answer: This is in-fact a two-color LED - green for signal-present + red for signal-clip.

Question: “What is the power specs of the headphone outs of the FCA610 and FCA1616?”
Answer: Specs of the headphone outputs are identical on FCA610 & FCA1616:

Max Output Level is +22dBu
Impedance is 10Ohm
Frequency Response: 22Hz - 22kHz (+/- 1dB)

Hope this helps.

Best Regards,
Joe Sanborn
Manager, Product Support
MUSIC Group
BEHRINGER