Steven Slate debuts The RAVEN X1 Production Console - Page 16 - Gearslutz.com
Steven Slate debuts The RAVEN X1 Production Console
Old 18th February 2012
  #451
Slate Pro Audio / Slate Digital
 
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Thread Starter
Enlightened Hand, you appear to share a brain with me because I couldn't have answered it any better.

And I want to say that I have no objections to the way anyone chooses to work. It's not my way or the highway. If you mix hybrid and like to do so, or even if you mix all analog and you are making great music.. then rock on!

My earlier arguments were to those who said that the ONLY way to make music sound good was to incorporate analog tools, and that digital tools were not sonically comparable. That's the part I think is bull****.

And to show that I'm a reasonable man, I will admit that for the first time in a LOOONG time.. a client asked for his ref mixes on CD-R yesterday. But it was only because his girlfriend had borrowed his ipod.

Cheers,
Steven
Old 19th February 2012
  #452
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Realtugs's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Slate View Post
My earlier arguments were to those who said that the ONLY way to make music sound good was to incorporate analog tools, and that digital tools were not sonically comparable. That's the part I think is bull****.
Hallelujah!

Now...got any pr0n?
Old 20th February 2012
  #453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Enlightened Hand View Post
The point is to keep the good and side step the not-so-good aspects. That's why they model the old stuff. The old stuff sounds great in many cases. We want that. The workflow, cost and infrastructure is the hindrance. That's what plug-ins offer as advantageous. This is hardly a leap in reasoning. I wonder why so many people are stuck in their brains about it.

Which is why it's "forward thinking" to solve the problems of those devices. Plug-ins are one way to skin that cat. Whether or not they satisfy their intended goal is a matter for debate.
That happens too. Plenty of plugs that do just that. It's not an either or. There's room for both approaches to processing digitally.

Well that is what is in dispute and many experiments have consistently revealed that it's not so clean a line as to which always sounds "better" or even whether or not anything can be identified either way when the work is well done. The problem is your false analogy. If you're certain that you can tell the difference so easily and that "diet Coke" is so obvious then take the challenge Slate laid out and you'll have a company that makes you a lot of money for free.
Advantageous workk flow maybe (also we are pretty quick with analogue). But the shortcut is the sound. You can argue that a behringer which looks like something they have copied is "as good". Steven is very passionate about his products but I have bought 2 of everything he makes in software and it is definitely as expected. To dismiss it as "being stuck in your ways" or missing the way forward, or another communistic slogan is purely elitist and too dismissive of the real issue why the analogue tools are still superior. Sidestepping the real issues with software may be good for marketing but not great for people who use these tools. Its misleading in the name of $$$ at best.
If "close enough is good enough" argument is good enough for you then so be it. But most people I know can achieve superior results much quicker on analogue tools then fiddling around countless hours on digital trying to replicate that sound.
But horses for courses of course. Some people like the sound of plugins and achieve THEIR sound with them . Fair enough.
Old 20th February 2012
  #454
Slate Pro Audio / Slate Digital
 
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yuri Kogan View Post
Advantageous workk flow maybe (also we are pretty quick with analogue). But the shortcut is the sound. .
If I posted a mix that was summed through a zero'd out console, like an SSL4000, and one that was summed ITB with the VCC on its Brit 4K setting, do you think you'll be able to tell which is which?

Analog can be meticulously modeled with DSP, and can fool the human ear. I've heard it, and I'm certainly not the only one. We're both making claims here, only I've proven mine with a very calibrated and scientific blind A/B test. You're dismissing that in your own 'communistic' way.

Check out the BEACH BOYS "SMILE" record, on iTunes now. Mark Linett, who had access to any console he desired, mixed this through the VCC on the Brit N Discrete. Seems odd as he could have had such a better sound on this monumental record if he just mixed it analog.


Cheers,
Steven
Old 20th February 2012
  #455
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If I may still chime in about the features of a product I'd be seriously interested in... Just two points :

- The possibility of a sliding 88 keys master keyboard under the board is, in my humble case, a definite decision maker.
- The possibility of a dual display would be appreciated

I've read the thread and realize ths has been discussed before. Still, as I'm starting to really consider this product and do appreciate the calm and politeness of Mr. Slate, I'dd just add a voice on that account.

On a side note and while we're at it, I'd mention that I don't have the slightest interest in the analog vs. emulation debate. Not because it's obviously sterile - only because I do own some very nice outboard but will never be able to afford a Neve 88. Therefore, I have little choice but be interested in whatever is on the market in terms of tools to extract the sound I got in my head. On that particular matter, Mr. Slate (among others) seems to provide.

If I'm the only one in that case, I apologize for obviously wasting everybody's time. Otherwise, I'd really LOVE to see this thread include some update on the original topic.
Old 20th February 2012
  #456
Gear interested
 
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wow, its beautiful!
Old 20th February 2012
  #457
Lives for gear
 

Hey Steve,
Hadn't heard of you before seeing this desk,

Just want to say man, your voice is incredible mate, so much so, with a voice like that I trust you've tuned your plugins very well. Gonna check it all out,

Make an album truly great voice.

'i'm referring to his slate drum video, at the end he rips into an old swooner, good stuff'
Old 20th February 2012
  #458
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jordanvoth's Avatar
Steven where's the new pictures? You're leaving us hanging!
Old 20th February 2012
  #459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Washington View Post
- The possibility of a sliding 88 keys master keyboard under the board is, in my humble case, a definite decision maker.
^^Ditto - this would be great if the ergonomics could be solved.
Old 20th February 2012
  #460
Gear Addict
 
britdick's Avatar
 

KUDOS!

Once again Mr Slate i must commend you on your calm and reasoned responses to the blowhards. Incredible to me that a post about a new product can devolve so quickly into the witless badinage evidenced on this thread. Actually it's NOT that incredible, it IS Gearslutz after all.

i use SSD4, it ain't perfect, the updates are slow in the delivery, it causes all sorts of glitchy **** to happen with my DAW, but it sounds awesome and has made my life in the studio easier. It was also a RIDICULOUS bargain with the "cross-grade". For those reasons, Slate gets my vote. Try dealing with the arrogant ****s @ FXpansion. Jimminy!

He's a guy with a singular vision, a desire to sing standards, and the balls to actually step into a field dominated by some ****ty companies that have taken us all for granted for a very long time. Show the guy some respect, don't demean him or his confidence in his product. Check it out, if it ain't for you - well, DON'T GET ONE! Really kindof simple. He CLEARLY knows what he is doing, has taken the time to ask US, the users of his product, how he can make it better for us AND is implementing our needs into V2.0! Brilliant! Below i have listed the other companies with reps on Gearslutz that have done the same in the 5 years i have been a member:

1)
2)
3)
4)
5)

Right. Stow it. Let the man do his thing.
As you were Mr Slate.
Old 20th February 2012
  #461
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Realtugs's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Washington View Post
- The possibility of a sliding 88 keys master keyboard under the board is, in my humble case, a definite decision maker.
- The possibility of a dual display would be appreciated
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smithcok View Post
^^Ditto - this would be great if the ergonomics could be solved.
Steven has stated here that both have been addressed. Possibility of dual 27's now...and a "Composers" option (I believe it was called), which will include a sliding 88-key shelf.
Old 20th February 2012
  #462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Realtugs View Post
Steven has stated here that both have been addressed. Possibility of dual 27's now...and a "Composers" option (I believe it was called), which will include a sliding 88-key shelf.
Great - excited for new pics.
Old 20th February 2012
  #463
Gear maniac
 
A4722's Avatar
 

Esoteric Responses

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Slate View Post

Check out the BEACH BOYS "SMILE" record, on iTunes now. Mark Linett, who had access to any console he desired, mixed this through the VCC on the Brit N Discrete. Seems odd as he could have had such a better sound on this monumental record if he just mixed it analog.

Cheers,
Steven
Well, maybe. Other issue's might have come into play. Profit for one. I'm not saying that this is what happened but a scenario might exist where not spending on all outboard might have saved some budget somewhere... thus more money to someone, somewhere... along with the thinking that the audio would still be "good enough" for the ipod/earbud era.

That aside, I have always wondered about "A/B ing" an initial visceral (gut response) to music. Is the visceral response the same when comparing different reproduction formats ? Can we ever hope to repeat a visceral response ? Have we been trained to "listen through" the sound of digital to still get that initial visceral response ? Or have we just accepted a new visceral response as "good" ? I'm not sure that critical listening tests of audio files will provide any answer.

Is the initial visceral response stored in the brain as a "highlight moment" being drawn off of to color our perception of a replay of the physical situation (sound occurring) that created that sought after "highlight moment" (no matter what format is presented later) ?

Listening repeatedly to try to preceive sonic differences in audio files deals with a different set of issue's than attempting to elicit a specific gut response from a first time listener to a song. Just because one cannot perceive a difference in audio files (during critical listening tests) does not mean that the exact visceral response will be generated in a listener regardless of which file is played (with all of the human factors being equal at the moment of perception).

Now add vinyl and tape playback to the discussion and the listeners initial visceral response will be too unique/esoteric to ever "duplicate".

How can we ever compare/emulate what could be considered a subconscious response ?

I guess, in the end, times change and we must accept that certain archetypal feelings and emotions might be gone forever... along with the persons who were aware of them and could conjure up those feelings and emotions in the first place.

I do understand that you are just trying to "scientifically" make the format decision a moot point.

But, because of the above factors listed, I believe that this is why certain people will resist the notion that if it "sounds the same" it is the same.
Old 20th February 2012
  #464
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StoneinaPond's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by A4722 View Post
Well, maybe. Other issue's might have come into play. Profit for one. I'm not saying that this is what happened but a scenario might exist where not spending on all outboard might have saved some budget somewhere... thus more money to someone, somewhere... along with the thinking that the audio would still be "good enough" for the ipod/earbud era.
Well now you're just p*ssing into the wind.
Old 21st February 2012
  #465
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The Vulture's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Slate View Post
Is it that odd to think that in 2012, we don't have the power and brains to recreate what an analog circuit is doing? Because we can. I've heard it. Today again, we did an A/B of a famous 2" 16 track tape machine and a plugin we are just completing that intends to emulate it's sound. And again, not one single person in the room, including Howie Weinberg, a mastering engineer with superman style ears and more platinum records than anyone I know, could firmly tell the real from the digital.

So yes, I'm arrogant in what I say. Because I've done a scientific test to prove it. And so I've proved it to my own ears, I've proven it to other professionals that I respect, and in the end.. I know that when I mix ITB using the emulations, the results are amazing.

I'm sorry AudioSoundzz if you think I'm demeaning you.. I can promise you that it's not my intentions.

But I'm not going to keep my mouth closed when there are still claims that nothing in the world can replace an analog signal path in terms of its sonic results. Because it's just not true anymore. And I'm not going to pretend its blasphemy to say that we can have the sound of analog recreated by digital algorithms. If you don't agree, that's fine. But I don't think it merits such controversy.

I've proven it at this very forum by posting blind A/B files, and it seems like I"ll have to do it again to drive the point home. If an analog desk clearly sounds better than ITB using console emulation, then it'll be easy to identify.

This industry is moving along with the digital revolution. You can either deny it, or make it work for you.. and you might find the results even better.

Cheers,
Steven
Nuff said..
Old 21st February 2012
  #466
Gear maniac
 
A4722's Avatar
 

vice versa

Quote:
Originally Posted by StoneinaPond View Post
Well now you're just p*ssing into the wind.
Then, according to that logic, so would be saying that the guy made the choice for whatever reason, regardless of what he tells you... unless you see the books....

The idea that he chose the "best sounding option" because it was such an important project is not proof that it was the reason he made that choice.

So I guess you are saying that Slate is "pissing in the wind" as well.
Old 21st February 2012
  #467
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Quote:
Originally Posted by A4722 View Post
Then, according to that logic, so would be saying that the guy made the choice for whatever reason, regardless of what he tells you... unless you see the books....

The idea that he chose the "best sounding option" because it was such an important project is not proof that it was the reason he made that choice.

So I guess you are saying that Slate is "pissing in the wind" as well.
You use the word "logic" in the opening line, yet your post is complete devoid of any.
Old 21st February 2012
  #468
Gear maniac
 
The Cube's Avatar
 

This is so funny. Seeing so many of you so troubled about a new product that obviously has so much going for it.

To put it simple:

If it's not for you, then dont buy it and go moan somewhere else!

Ive been all for new tech and breaking boundaries all my life, so I am waiting for the release candidate to show up and decide if its good enough for me to buy it.

On to the updated pics shall we?
Old 22nd February 2012
  #469
Gear maniac
 
A4722's Avatar
 

I bow to your wisdom...

Quote:
Originally Posted by StoneinaPond View Post
You use the word "logic" in the opening line, yet your post is complete devoid of any.
OK, OK !!! Your reasoning powers have convinced me that there is nothing valid in what I posted. #477

Please accept my apologies and try to forgive me.

(By the way, your Highness, you used the wrong version of the word "complete" in your perfectly "logical" post...)
Old 22nd February 2012
  #470
Slate Pro Audio / Slate Digital
 
Steven Slate's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Hi Folks. We are building a new RAVEN as I speak.

This new design incorporates many new features, and centers around a much more innovative concept. Unfortunately, I will have to break my promise, since I can't show a photo of it until we start our official production run. Please understand that this is something we have to do as a business, and we have YOU, our customer, in our best interests.

This product is built for the new and modern recording engineer... Its has sophisticated workflow, efficiency, and FUN in mind. I believe it will help you make you and your client's recording experiences BETTER.

I'm gonna take a breather from this thread while we work hard to bring this new concept to market. Thanks so much for the great discussions. I look forward to more of them when we officially announce the RAVEN X1.

Cheers,
Steven
Old 22nd February 2012
  #471
Lives for gear
 
Realtugs's Avatar
 

Damn...that was anticlimactic!

Unsubscribing now...the Raven can come find me when it is ready.

Best of luck with it, Steven.
Old 22nd February 2012
  #472
Gear Addict
 
Jimmy kiddo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Slate View Post
Is it that odd to think that in 2012, we don't have the power and brains to recreate what an analog circuit is doing? Because we can. I've heard it. Today again, we did an A/B of a famous 2" 16 track tape machine and a plugin we are just completing that intends to emulate it's sound. And again, not one single person in the room, including Howie Weinberg, a mastering engineer with superman style ears and more platinum records than anyone I know, could firmly tell the real from the digital.

So yes, I'm arrogant in what I say. Because I've done a scientific test to prove it. And so I've proved it to my own ears, I've proven it to other professionals that I respect, and in the end.. I know that when I mix ITB using the emulations, the results are amazing.

I'm sorry AudioSoundzz if you think I'm demeaning you.. I can promise you that it's not my intentions.

But I'm not going to keep my mouth closed when there are still claims that nothing in the world can replace an analog signal path in terms of its sonic results. Because it's just not true anymore. And I'm not going to pretend its blasphemy to say that we can have the sound of analog recreated by digital algorithms. If you don't agree, that's fine. But I don't think it merits such controversy.

I've proven it at this very forum by posting blind A/B files, and it seems like I"ll have to do it again to drive the point home. If an analog desk clearly sounds better than ITB using console emulation, then it'll be easy to identify.

This industry is moving along with the digital revolution. You can either deny it, or make it work for you.. and you might find the results even better.

Cheers,
Steven
My respects !! Visionaries is what have kept the world moving forward!
Old 22nd February 2012
  #473
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
 

RE: the new design,I would ditch the headphone mix station in there.
get remote boxes ala Axiom and let the musicians make their own mixes..
if your in your home studio wearing many hats - producing,mixing engineering,setting up separate monitor mixes can be a REAL time killer
..one less thing to have to fuss with.
good luck with REV 2
Old 23rd February 2012
  #474
Lives for gear
 
The Vulture's Avatar
 

This is starting to remind me of what I called it at first.

To promote a "product" drawing it back, changing it, saying there will be a completely new product.
I would be embarrassed..

Maybe wait next time until you actually have a product?
My 2 cents..
Or an update of trigger(I would like that!)
Old 23rd February 2012
  #475
LFO
Gear nut
 
LFO's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Vulture View Post
This is starting to remind me of what I called it at first.

To promote a "product" drawing it back, changing it, saying there will be a completely new product.
I would be embarrassed..

Maybe wait next time until you actually have a product?
My 2 cents..
Or an update of trigger(I would like that!)
Uh, Steve won BEST OF SHOW with his `non product'. He never said there will be a completely new product, he said they are completing a new design of the same product.

Products get introduced at shows all the time and are then revamped after the show. It is business as usual. Dude, your glass isn't half empty, it's 80% empty. You should be be embarrassed for making such silly remarks...
Old 23rd February 2012
  #476
Gear interested
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Slate View Post
Hi Folks. We are building a new RAVEN as I speak.

This new design incorporates many new features, and centers around a much more innovative concept. Unfortunately, I will have to break my promise, since I can't show a photo of it until we start our official production run. Please understand that this is something we have to do as a business, and we have YOU, our customer, in our best interests.

This product is built for the new and modern recording engineer... Its has sophisticated workflow, efficiency, and FUN in mind. I believe it will help you make you and your client's recording experiences BETTER.

I'm gonna take a breather from this thread while we work hard to bring this new concept to market. Thanks so much for the great discussions. I look forward to more of them when we officially announce the RAVEN X1.

Cheers,
Steven
FRICK!! At least give us a timeline and approximate price. I need to buy something NOW, and I'm waiting for a realistic announcement from you guys. Looks like I'm going to have to build my own and hope I don't get sued by the germans!
Old 23rd February 2012
  #477
Lives for gear
 
dbjp's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Vulture View Post
This is starting to remind me of what I called it at first.

To promote a "product" drawing it back, changing it, saying there will be a completely new product.
I would be embarrassed..

Maybe wait next time until you actually have a product?
My 2 cents..
Or an update of trigger(I would like that!)
Ha, yes, what a horrible thought. This thread's caused them to create a, gasp, better product!!
The wisdom of the vulture knows no bounds.
Old 23rd February 2012
  #478
Lives for gear
 
travisbrown's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Vulture View Post
This is starting to remind me of what I called it at first.

To promote a "product" drawing it back, changing it, saying there will be a completely new product.
I would be embarrassed..

Maybe wait next time until you actually have a product?
My 2 cents..
You must be of fair independent means for all the 2 cents you've been dropping.

Don't be an asshat. Every company in every design and manufacturing sector presents a prototype before production. That's what trade shows and exhibitions are for. Slate presented a prototype. I don't see that it will be a completely new product. It will be a (presumably) better version of the initial proof of concept.

The companies that embarrass themselves the most are the ones that don't do user acceptance testing or prototyping and don't implement feedback, just launch a product for better or worse. Blackberry Playbook comes to mind...
Old 23rd February 2012
  #479
Gear Addict
 
Jimmy kiddo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Vulture View Post
This is starting to remind me of what I called it at first.

To promote a "product" drawing it back, changing it, saying there will be a completely new product.
I would be embarrassed..

Maybe wait next time until you actually have a product?
My 2 cents..
Or an update of trigger(I would like that!)
Ohhh brother you are so lost, I'm starting to feel pity ,how old are you? Either you are 14 or you work for some kind of slate's competition! . It is very nice from a product developer to come here to a forum and ask respectfully what the people need, that is called "listen to the client". Now ,,, how many of the company you buy from have done this for you ?
Old 23rd February 2012
  #480
Gear Addict
 
AudioSoundzz's Avatar
I do appreciate Steve Slate, the ethics of the company and I use some of his products. I did have some issues with the design of the desk which he read and disagreed with which is totally ok with me. I do not expect everyone to agree with me but being able to put my likes and dislikes out gives me a good feeling. Having a respectful dialog about ideas of a possible new kind of product with a company is refreshing and should be admired which I do. Things often take longer than expected especially in the creative world and with programmers in my experience. I understand Mr. Slates need to work "behind closed doors" for now and give him my full support and best wishes
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