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ValhallaRoom
Old 6th March 2011
  #91
That bpm synched predelay is a great idea. FR seconded. :-)
Old 6th March 2011
  #92
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Coyoteous's Avatar
 

I'd say set the Room pre-delay to zero and use something else in front of it for the BPM sync, but that's just me. Oh, and there's most definitely diffusion, just not a dedicated control in the late section. I don't know if it's fixed per algorithm, or varies with other parameters. There is a control in the early section. This in part marks more overall similarity to the M7, and less to the many cookbook variation reverberators out there.
Old 6th March 2011
  #93
ValhallaDSP
 
seancostello's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyoteous View Post
I think "too good" was a complaint about the Bricasti over in Remote Possibilities. So, Room is in good company, I suppose. Speaking of the M7, here are a few quotes of Casey's that I clipped. They might help highlight some underlying similarities to, and/or differences with, VR.
Yeah, let's compare my $50 plugin to the $4K reverb supercomputer. No pressure.

Seriously, though, when ValhallaRoom comes out, I would welcome any comparisons people want to make with any hardware or software unit. Not to say that ValhallaRoom will always come out on top, but I think this would be useful for any potential purchasers. Plus, I'm always trying to improve my own designs.

Quote:
"The M7 has adaptive soft early ambience and a true stereo tail."
I always wondered what "adaptive" means here. I know that the early Lexicon designs had "Decay Optimization" which sounded like some sort of adaptive thing, but I always presumed that this was used to minimize artifacts from the allpass delays.

Quote:
"M7 earlies do not try to build a set of hard reflections in order to try to create a room. My sense is that this is counter productive, in that this can only fight with the original source room."
I came to this conclusion on my own while developing the ValhallaRoom algorithms. I also looked at some of the "classic" reverbs and their presets. For example, the 480L has 6 discrete early reflections available in most of the reverb algorithms, yet most of the highly-regarded presets have the early reflection gains turned all the way down. The Quantec QRS has a single delay for early reflections, with the idea being that the reverb simulates the room "resonances" rather than any particular room geometry.

In ValhallaRoom, I am not generating specific, discrete early reflections, so much as "early energy." The Early section has a fixed attack/decay shape, and the Size can be adjusted on a milliseconds basis. The Early energy can also be fed into the Late energy, in order to increase the initial Late echo density (the Early and Late sections have also been designed to interact with each other nicely, such that feeding early into late is fairly colorless).

However, the Late section of ValhallaRoom is dense enough for most settings that you can bypass the Early section if desired. If someone is recording in a room with significant early reflections, running the signal directly into the Late reverb will result in a natural sounding extension of the original room reverb.

Quote:
"The M7 creates a range of very soft ambiences instead. These ambiences are defined by their attack and decay characteristics."
That is smart. From what I have heard of M7 impulse responses, the reverb seems VERY dense, and the Size perception is based on the attack of the reverb, with larger rooms being implied by softer attacks.

For ValhallaRoom, a similar effect can be generated by feeding the Early section into the Late section, turning the Depth control all the way up (so only the Late section is heard), and using the Early Size to dial in the attack time. I almost called the Early Size control the "Attack" control, but at the time it only fed into the Late reverb, instead of being able to be heard on its own in the mix. Thanks to some cool laws of DSP "physics" (convolution, to be specific, although this isn't a "convolution" reverb by the current definition), running one reverb section into another reverb section results in a soft initial attack.

I utilized this side effect of cascading reverberators to a far greater degree in ValhallaShimmer, to the point where the attacks are slowed down in time, like a reverb on the edge of a black hole. heh The attack softening in ValhallaRoom is much more subtle, and far more "natural" if natural is your thing. Although having a 1 second gated reverb (which you can get with the Early section of Room) also gets you outside of the realm of "real world" physics...

Quote:
"The current V2 software has expanded the earlies to provide a selection of early sounds that have less attack with the goal of providing a sound pattern that is less surprising when presented from the rear."
This is also smart. This would simulate a slower onset of reverb from the back speakers, which also maps to room microphones located at the back of a hall.
Old 6th March 2011
  #94
ValhallaDSP
 
seancostello's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TNM View Post
hmm, no diffusion?
The Early section has a Diffusion control. This can be fed into the Late section for a more "conventional" diffusion effect.

However, it is worth noting that the Diffusion control works in a different manner than the diffusion control in most reverbs. Lots of reverbs have a metallic artifact as the Diffusion is turned up, due to ringing in the allpass delays that are usually employed for this purpose. I'm using a different technique, to minimize metallic artifacts when Diffusion is all the way up.

Quote:
you know what would really top this all off, is a bpm synced pre delay. God i wish someone besides PCM and overloud would do it
I've thought about this. The issue is that the predelay and Early Size interact with each other, so if you want a given BPM delay, what gets adjusted? Which has the higher priority?

Plus, I just finished the preset code, so I am pretty much "feature complete," and want to get this out the door. But I'll take this under consideration.

Quote:
Also, since i;ve got your attention in this thread, there is a little bugaboo in your awesomest freebie delay plugin, 1/8T as marked are really 1/8 dotted' for example....
You say tomato, I say tomato. Wait, that doesn't really work when you type it...

You say tomato, I say "OK, I don't know my musical terms that well." I can correct this easily without breaking things.

Quote:
Another FR.. have those divisions + dotted + triplets in your freebie.... pretty please pretty please !
Adding these would break existing projects. I might do a point release of FreqEcho soon, adding automation fixes, preset code, and the triplets/dotted fix you just suggested, and then create a version with more features/delay settings in the future.

Quote:
oh, room is on my must have list.
Excellent!
Old 6th March 2011
  #95
Gear Maniac
 

I've been following this thread and loving shimmer. Really appreciate Sean's insight into the development and really looking forward to Rooms release..might even curb some of my hardware verb gas :D
Old 7th March 2011
  #96
TNM
Lives for gear
hmm but don;t most reverbs work that way re pre delay or am i missing something?

how high does the pre delay go anyway? for bpm syncing i am obviously talking about special fx.
Old 7th March 2011
  #97
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TNM
you know what would really top this all off, is a bpm synced pre delay. God i wish someone besides PCM and overloud would do it.
I mentioned this request at the very beginning of this thread and I also think that BPM synced tails would be great to…all modern reverbs should provide this feature as an option.
Old 7th March 2011
  #98
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Nah, leave the bpm stuff out...
Easy to calculate sync times yerself and no need for unnecessary UI clutter...
Old 7th March 2011
  #99
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radiance View Post
Nah, leave the bpm stuff out...
Easy to calculate sync times yerself and no need for unnecessary UI clutter...
I agree with this.

- c
Old 7th March 2011
  #100
Lives for gear
 

It wouldn’t create any clutter at all, moreover in many cases it is for the sake of simplifying and un-cluttering things - not complicating them. I already use BPM synced delays instead of pre-delay and I do calculate pre-delays and tail’s length so I’m not saying it is a “must” feature but having a little switch to choose between BPM and ms. values would speed up and simplify work flow.
Old 7th March 2011
  #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Beast View Post
having a little switch to choose between BPM and ms. values would speed up and simplify work flow.
Your call it "little switch", I call it clutter ;-)
Old 7th March 2011
  #102
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maxy's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sonic_Beast View Post
It wouldn’t create any clutter at all, moreover in many cases it is for the sake of simplifying and un-cluttering things - not complicating them. I already use BPM synced delays instead of pre-delay and I do calculate pre-delays and tail’s length so I’m not saying it is a “must” feature but having a little switch to choose between BPM and ms. values would speed up and simplify work flow.
I agree. I'd love to have that feature, unfortunately it seems to late to implement it at this point. Plus, for me personally, I'm not sure if I'd rather get the verb sooner or have to wait a couple more weeks for it...
Old 7th March 2011
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
I agree with this.

- c
I agree with this also; and I'll add that I think that non-exactly tempo-matched pre-delay sounds better to me anyway; I think there's too much synching and tempo-locking going on ... but that's just my opinion heh

I'm really looking forward to this plug-in. The demo audio sounded great!
Old 7th March 2011
  #104
ValhallaDSP
 
seancostello's Avatar
 

I'm declaring the reverb "feature frozen" at this point, as far as parameters. One of the earlier posters pointed out some errors in my tempo-sync code for ValhallaFreqEcho, as far as dotted-eights versus triplets. I need to put some more work into this before I introduce it into a product. Plus, I don't want to introduce more sliders onto the GUI. So, no tempo sync delay/Early Size.

Everything else is pretty tight at this point, except for a bug I introduced into my least favorite reverb mode at some point. I'm going to track that down this morning, then send the reverb out to beta testers again.

The preset code is very robust at this point. I've been putting together some presets, and will see if the beta testers want to contribute any. The nice thing about the new presets is that they aren't "cooked" into the plugin. The plugin reads the preset directories in two locations, Factory and User, and displays a file tree of those. So updating presets in the future would be as simple as moving files into a directory, or a lightweight installer.
Old 7th March 2011
  #105
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adpz's Avatar
 

Hi Sean,

Can I buy it now and use it in beta until the final comes along? It's really exactly what I've been looking for. I'm, on PT HD FWIW.

thumbsup
Old 7th March 2011
  #106
ValhallaDSP
 
seancostello's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by adpz View Post
Hi Sean,

Can I buy it now and use it in beta until the final comes along? It's really exactly what I've been looking for. I'm, on PT HD FWIW.

thumbsup
I don't want to sell anything that has bugs. So I need to keep this in beta until I get the go-ahead that it works for people.

I'd say 1 more week until the release for Mac. I'll then port to Windows, which should be fairly quick.
Old 7th March 2011
  #107
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adpz's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by seancostello View Post
I don't want to sell anything that has bugs. So I need to keep this in beta until I get the go-ahead that it works for people.

I'd say 1 more week until the release for Mac. I'll then port to Windows, which should be fairly quick.
Excellent. Subscribing to thread now . . .
Old 8th March 2011
  #108
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theothermarkwilliams's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by seancostello View Post
I'd say 1 more week until the release for Mac. I'll then port to Windows, which should be fairly quick.
Sweet! VRoom just might make it on an album I'm trying to finish up.
Old 8th March 2011
  #109
TNM
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by seancostello View Post
I'm declaring the reverb "feature frozen" at this point, as far as parameters. One of the earlier posters pointed out some errors in my tempo-sync code for ValhallaFreqEcho, as far as dotted-eights versus triplets. I need to put some more work into this before I introduce it into a product. Plus, I don't want to introduce more sliders onto the GUI. So, no tempo sync delay/Early Size.

Everything else is pretty tight at this point, except for a bug I introduced into my least favorite reverb mode at some point. I'm going to track that down this morning, then send the reverb out to beta testers again.

The preset code is very robust at this point. I've been putting together some presets, and will see if the beta testers want to contribute any. The nice thing about the new presets is that they aren't "cooked" into the plugin. The plugin reads the preset directories in two locations, Factory and User, and displays a file tree of those. So updating presets in the future would be as simple as moving files into a directory, or a lightweight installer.
I accept your decision it's your product and will be great, but at least needed to point out no additional sliders would have been needed, just a small sync button then the SAME slider would change to represent sync values But hey, it's gonna rock regardless
Old 8th March 2011
  #110
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Andrew Souter's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by seancostello View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beatworld
Is that similar to Aether Sean ?
I'm not sure. It seems different from the Cross control in Breeze, which seems to control the spread of energy in a fixed manner, as opposed to over time (at least that is my impression of Breeze, but I don't know what goes on under the hood in that plugin). The Early Cross in Room control affects the spread in a "fixed" manner, but in a unique way that also increases the echo density.
...actually there IS a time element to the Cross control in Breeze.... The exact behavior depends on the settings of several other controls in addition to the Cross setting.
Old 8th March 2011
  #111
ValhallaDSP
 
seancostello's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Souter View Post
...actually there IS a time element to the Cross control in Breeze.... The exact behavior depends on the settings of several other controls in addition to the Cross setting.
Interesting - I'll have to check it out again when I have time. Meanwhile, I may be adding a non-time component to my Late Cross control, in order to get a more "pseudo-stereo" sound at the highest settings (i.e. similar to how Quantec and Jot get a stereo mix).
Old 9th March 2011
  #112
ValhallaDSP
 
seancostello's Avatar
 

Update: I have a new beta build out to testers. This comes with an installer, preset code, that sort of thing. I'm working on AU64 build today. In other words, things are CLOSE.
Old 9th March 2011
  #113
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theothermarkwilliams's Avatar
 

YES!
Excited over here.
Old 11th March 2011
  #114
ValhallaDSP
 
seancostello's Avatar
 

Updates:

  • Currently testing builds of OSX VST, AU, AU64, and RTAS.
  • Built an installer, that loads all plugins + preset folders.
  • I just upped the max predelay to 500 msec, so I need to revise my presets.
  • Fixed volume level differences between different reverb modes. Tested with pink noise, and all modes/decay settings end up setting at 0 dB, except for the very shortest decays (i.e. under 0.5 seconds, and only in a few modes).

Question:

  • Should I include 2 preset folders, Send and Insert, with subfolders for the different reverb types (Hall, Chamber, Spaces, Ambience, etc.)? Or would a single set of folders be better, with the Mix set to 100% wet, and people can tweak their own levels if they want inserts?
Old 11th March 2011
  #115
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Mercado_Negro's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by seancostello View Post
Question:

  • Should I include 2 preset folders, Send and Insert, with subfolders for the different reverb types (Hall, Chamber, Spaces, Ambience, etc.)? Or would a single set of folders be better, with the Mix set to 100% wet, and people can tweak their own levels if they want inserts?
If it's not much to ask, please include 2 preset folders.

Cheers
Old 11th March 2011
  #116
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thermos's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by seancostello View Post
Updates:

  • Currently testing builds of OSX VST, AU, AU64, and RTAS.
  • Built an installer, that loads all plugins + preset folders.
  • I just upped the max predelay to 500 msec, so I need to revise my presets.
  • Fixed volume level differences between different reverb modes. Tested with pink noise, and all modes/decay settings end up setting at 0 dB, except for the very shortest decays (i.e. under 0.5 seconds, and only in a few modes).

Question:

  • Should I include 2 preset folders, Send and Insert, with subfolders for the different reverb types (Hall, Chamber, Spaces, Ambience, etc.)? Or would a single set of folders be better, with the Mix set to 100% wet, and people can tweak their own levels if they want inserts?
I vote all 100%. Personally. Otherwise 2 preset folders would be fine.
Love the presets Sean.
Old 11th March 2011
  #117
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maxy's Avatar
I vote a single folder set at 100% as I use my verb on sends. I would not complain about having 2 folders but the less clutter the better.

Thanks
Old 11th March 2011
  #118
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Mercado_Negro's Avatar
I also thought about a single set of folders because I use reverbs as sends in 99,9% of cases but another folder for inserts seems to be the best decision since there are also users who may need it. Everybody wins
Old 11th March 2011
  #119
Gear Addict
 
icebox's Avatar
 

+1 for one folder 100% wet.
Old 11th March 2011
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icebox View Post
+1 for one folder 100% wet.
Same here...
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