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New Tape Emulation - "Roundtone" Saturation Plugins
Old 9th January 2011
  #181
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0t0b0t View Post
Something I noticed is that when I duplicate the plugin onto another duplicate track's or buss' insert and do a phase flip on that track it doesn't phase cancel. It seems as if no two Roundtone plugins sound the same at same settings..??.. Even loading the same user preset on both plugins. It's not the case that the duplicate busses wouldn't cancel out without roundtone on them.
Is it a setting that doesn't get loaded? Or is there varying / non-linear behaviour in Roundtone?
Roundtone generates a bit of second harmonic and the thing with even-number harmonics is that they depend on the symmetry of the signal. So, if your phase flip happens pre-effect that generates even harmonics the result is not gonna cancel. Try putting something that can flip the phase after the Roundtone insert and see if it cancels.
Old 9th January 2011
  #182
Quote:
Originally Posted by meloco_go View Post
Roundtone generates a bit of second harmonic and the thing with even-number harmonics is that they depend on the symmetry of the signal. So, if your phase flip happens pre-effect that generates even harmonics the result is not gonna cancel. Try putting something that can flip the phase after the Roundtone insert and see if it cancels.
That's how it was set up. Phase flip at the end of the chain.
Do you have tried what I described and don't see the same thing happening?
Old 9th January 2011
  #183
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0t0b0t View Post
That's how it was set up. Phase flip at the end of the chain.
Do you have tried what I described and don't see the same thing happening?
You know, after I replied I checked it myself and found the same thing!
I think that's nice =)
Some element of uncertainty may play well in the digital system!
Old 9th January 2011
  #184
Quote:
Originally Posted by meloco_go View Post
You know, after I replied I checked it myself and found the same thing!
I think that's nice =)
Some element of uncertainty may play well in the digital system!
heh
But actually it seems only be the case wrapped in Pro Tools here.. I tried it in Samplitude 11 now and there it cancels perfectly. I could also hear what the Speed dial does.. it affects the compression characteristic and thus the transients similar to attack/release in a compressor.. but still very very subtle.

I think something doesn't get loaded correctly when the plugin is wrapped as RTAS.. we'll find out thumbsup
Old 9th January 2011
  #185
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 0t0b0t View Post
heh
But actually it seems only be the case wrapped in Pro Tools here.. I tried it in Samplitude 11 now and there it cancels perfectly.
Interesting, I'm using it in Reaper (so obviously no wrapper involved) and it does not cancel completely.
Old 9th January 2011
  #186
Quote:
Originally Posted by meloco_go View Post
Interesting, I'm using it in Reaper (so obviously no wrapper involved) and it does not cancel completely.
Hm ok, strange that it does cancel out in Samplitude though... so it must have s.th. to do with the way thses hosts handle the plugin.
Old 9th January 2011
  #187
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mljung's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 0t0b0t View Post
One other thing I'm scratching my head at is the Speed knob. Seems like it's effect is very subtle... actually I duplicated and phase flipped the two busses to find out how the Speed dial affects the sound.. but due to aforementioned non linear behaviour I was not able to determin that heh
I feel the same way about the speed knob I can't hear much difference. But since this knob seem to able amplify the aliasing pretty dramatically, I would recommend leaving it fully counter clock-wise, that is if you don't hear any big plus turning it up...


::
Mads
Old 9th January 2011
  #188
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quintosardo's Avatar
 

The speed knob acts on all the time constants of the effect.
It has a narrow range, to be able to look for a "snap".
Its effect can hardly be heard if action is low and/or emphasis is low.
To identify its action, set 3/4 action, 1/2 emphasis, 0 speed with a looping snare hit (15ips hard). Then look for a sweet spot increasing speed (1/3 should be the point). Like a frequency "snap" to separate the attack from the body.
Once you "see" it, you can use it a lot better
Old 9th January 2011
  #189
Quote:
Originally Posted by mljung View Post
I feel the same way about the speed knob I can't hear much difference. But since this knob seem to able amplify the aliasing pretty dramatically, I would recommend leaving it fully counter clock-wise, that is if you don't hear any big plus turning it up...


::
Mads
I leave it at the default state most of the time.. but I need to experiment some more with it doing what Quintosardo just suggested.


Quote:
Originally Posted by quintosardo View Post
The speed knob acts on all the time constants of the effect.
It has a narrow range, to be able to look for a "snap".
Its effect can hardly be heard if action is low and/or emphasis is low.
To identify its action, set 3/4 action, 1/2 emphasis, 0 speed with a looping snare hit (15ips hard). Then look for a sweet spot increasing speed (1/3 should be the point). Like a frequency "snap" to separate the attack from the body.
Once you "see" it, you can use it a lot better

Ok, I will experiment a bit mor with it!
Can you say something in regards to the behaviour in PT and Reaper? What could cause Roundtone to initialize differently each time using a preset?
Old 9th January 2011
  #190
Ok, just tried what you suggested and indeed it "rounds off" the transients when turned clock-wise at higher Action and Emphasis settings.
Old 9th January 2011
  #191
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quintosardo's Avatar
 

It has "time constants", of course, maybe that just a fraction of sample of delay from an instance to another one survives to phase cancellation...
There isn't any explicit "randomness" inside, it just tries to be "analog" and so it includes movement.

Internal vst parameter are managed in a rounded form (they are truncated as a standard), maybe a microscopic rounding difference between two (wrapped?) instances amplifies the phase difference and, so, the missing cancellation...
Old 9th January 2011
  #192
Crazy... now in Samplitude it also doesn't cancel out with the same settings on 2 identical busses.... the last time I checked it did. meloco_go also had it happen in Reaper so the wrapper part seems not to be causing it.

Anyway like meloco said some randomness isn't bad afterall heh
Old 9th January 2011
  #193
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quintosardo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 0t0b0t View Post
Crazy... now in Samplitude it also doesn't cancel out with the same settings on 2 identical busses.... the last time I checked it did. meloco_go also had it happen in Reaper so the wrapper part seems not to be causing it.

Anyway like meloco said some randomness isn't bad afterall heh
Like two tape machines would never cancel out
Old 9th January 2011
  #194
Quote:
Originally Posted by quintosardo View Post
Like two tape machines would never cancel out
He he that's right

I guess it's really due to the fact that an internal vst parameter is rounded off.. I could recreate the 100% cancellation in Samplitude by stopping playback, freshly loading one instance of Roundtone each into the busses and loading the saved patch each. (And that has nothing to do with adjusting for latency compensation or such, because there is no plugin latrency to compensate for.)
When I duplicate each of the instances to the next insert of the other track so that I have two Roundtones in each insert chain, the "natural nonlinearities" of magnetic tape are there again heh
Old 9th January 2011
  #195
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mljung's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by quintosardo View Post
To identify its action, set 3/4 action, 1/2 emphasis, 0 speed with a looping snare hit (15ips hard). Then look for a sweet spot increasing speed (1/3 should be the point).
As one can see those levels would produce quite an amount of aliasing, and if the sweet spot in the speed setting is higher, so is the aliasing. Are the oversampling in the next update your only plan to reduce this aliasing or do you have other plans as well..?


::
Mads
Attached Thumbnails
New Tape Emulation - "Roundtone"-roundtone-910-sine-aliasing.jpg  
Old 9th January 2011
  #196
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Alxi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by quintosardo View Post
I think it is rather simple. I use it myself very often. I'll ask for this, too.
Thank you sir
Old 9th January 2011
  #197
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quintosardo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mljung View Post
As one can see those levels would produce quite an amount of aliasing, and if the sweet spot in the speed setting is higher, so is the aliasing. Are the oversampling in the next update your only plan to reduce this aliasing or do you have other plans as well..?


::
Mads

The oversampling mode in the new version, when engaged, removes any aliasing completely. We're adding an overload led, too. That is very important to avoid "overloading" the model.
Old 9th January 2011
  #198
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mljung's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by quintosardo View Post
The oversampling mode in the new version, when engaged, removes any aliasing completely. We're adding an overload led, too. That is very important to avoid "overloading" the model.
thumbsup

::
Mads
Old 9th January 2011
  #199
Gear Head
 

@mljung

the aliasing on the spectrum seems very very very low, can you actually really hear it ?

Audible Dynamic Range Blind Test

i did this test, and my absolute maximum 10/10 in blind test it's 60dB of dynamic range.

I'm not saying you don't hear the aliasing, i'm just asking if you do ?


EDIT : Actually without the TV i can hear the 66dB at 10/10
Old 9th January 2011
  #200
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plop's Avatar
 

Does this thing sound any good?

Is it in the same league as UAD Studer or Nebula RTR?
Old 9th January 2011
  #201
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mljung's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jazzy Pidjay View Post
@mljung

the aliasing on the spectrum seems very very very low, can you actually really hear it ?

Audible Dynamic Range Blind Test

i did this test, and my absolute maximum 10/10 in blind test it's 60dB of dynamic range.

I'm not saying you don't hear the aliasing, i'm just asking if you do ?


EDIT : Actually without the TV i can hear the 66dB at 10/10
I haven't even tried to listen for it, but I can measure it is there. When you stack plugins aliasing adds up, and I have reason to believe the aliasing is best kept as low as possible in the final mix.

Because of this I have made the decision that I don't want to use plugins, unless they have non or very low, very low aliasing...

::
Mads
Old 9th January 2011
  #202
Gear Head
 

@mljung,

I agree with you, the less aliasing the better, for sure.

For my personal use, the aliasing of Roundtone is good enough,
and far lower than noisefloor on real tape anyway.

I think the oversampling option will make everybody happy.
Old 9th January 2011
  #203
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quintosardo's Avatar
 

I'm sure the normal way to operate is going to be:

- normal mode while mixing
- realtime oversampling (low latency) active just on 1 or 2 critical tracks
- hiQ auto oversampling active on every track during mixdown
Old 10th January 2011
  #204
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mljung View Post
I haven't even tried to listen for it, but I can measure it is there. When you stack plugins aliasing adds up, and I have reason to believe the aliasing is best kept as low as possible in the final mix.

Because of this I have made the decision that I don't want to use plugins, unless that have non or very low, very low aliasing...

::
Mads
I feel the same way; after going mostly ITB there was always something nagging at me about the sound of my mixes. After reading up on aliasing and using only plugs that show no or extremely little aliasing my mixes went back to sounding like my OTB mixes did (or close enough that I can't tell, anyway...).

I've been very impressed by the dev's support of this plugin and look forward to the next release. It's people like him that keep me supporting the little guys! Not that I'm saying he's physically small; for all I know he's a giant. But now I'm digressing...
Old 10th January 2011
  #205
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quintosardo's Avatar
 

We are eight. We sum up to about 14 meters, ah ah!
Old 11th January 2011
  #206
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Steab's Avatar
I wouldn't put it on my tracks before the aliasing problem gets fixed.

It has happened before and people use to fall in love with the easy analogy goodness tape/saturation plugins impact, only to later realize that too much (or just the amount needed to glue a mix) of it clouds the sound, mostly because of aliasing. Like vintage warmer. Put it on the majority of your tracks and ..guh.

It has been heavily discussed before in the plugin analysis thread, but for those who don't care about the aliasing reaching -80, try to guess what happens after you put it in most of your tracks, after you compress post tape, after you compress again on the mix busses, after you get a general 2-bus compression and after you compress and hard limit it again in mastering. It comes UP. A LOT. Creepy aliasing. Saturation plugins can be extremely dangerous if they're not optimized enough. Caution.




I still wish we had a native real uad-studer competitor.
Well, we eventually will, but we're still waiting.

Love
Old 11th January 2011
  #207
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quintosardo's Avatar
 

Oversampling prevents even the lowest aliasing, in this tape effect heh

Just set it "auto" (on export) for cpu saving.
Old 11th January 2011
  #208
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quintosardo's Avatar
 

Here is a really nice harmonic for a "mastering grade" tape effect from Roundtone :D



For non-techs:
It is a full sine sweep from 20Hz to 20kHz.
No aliasing at all!
Note how the harmonic comes down to near 20kHz. That's the best shape for good high frequencies: steep filter rolloff.
Please note that this is a very strong harmonic for testing, we are not going to use so much on any track, I guess...

The whole project can be managed "on tape", if needed, saving precious cpu and latency free while tracking or mixing, hi quality on mixdown.

Let's say we want to record "on tape" every track, submix and masterbus.
In a small project we'd need 8-drums, 1-drumbus, 1-guitar, 1-bass, 1-voice, 1-masterbus. Something like 15 stereo instances if we include effects. How many hardware cards would be needed for this? Just wondering, I've never tried it

Thank you all for feedback. It brought this small thing so far
Old 11th January 2011
  #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quintosardo View Post
Here is a really nice harmonic for a "mastering grade" tape effect from Roundtone :D



For non-techs:
It is a full sine sweep from 20Hz to 20kHz.
No aliasing at all!
Nice...
Old 11th January 2011
  #210
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quintosardo's Avatar
 

Just received a great demo (by Christian Spataro. Thanks!).

It is a sax performance, dry.

Recorded in mid-side, Alctron tube mics, Tascam solid state recorder.

Roundtone in and out.

Beware of the huge stereo 16 bit wav file! I didn't feel like cutting the file

http://www.sknote.it/download/Roundt..._C_Spataro.wav
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