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New Tape Emulation - "Roundtone" Saturation Plugins
Old 13th June 2012
  #1321
Gear Maniac
i co-sign that johnnynash's comment
Old 14th June 2012
  #1322
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quintosardo's Avatar
 

Well, I had quite some fun with illacov's files and 15ips challenge.

I loaded the two sets of tracks in the host and processed the raw tracks to get the feeling I heard in the taped files.

Not an exact copy, i guess (the files weren't exactly the same, didn't look for an exact level matching and balance and so on), but I think I got the feeling.

I used Roundtone @15ips to get the tape and Grasso for the input stage distortion (mainly on bass and percussions, mid-range saturation).

let me know if it makes sense...
Attached Files

15ipschallenge_ORIG.wav (7.49 MB, 97 views)

15ipschallenge_DIGI.wav (7.49 MB, 74 views)

Old 14th June 2012
  #1323
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quintosardo's Avatar
 

Oops... double post... look back for the audio samples...
Old 14th June 2012
  #1324
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illacov's Avatar
 

Talking

I think you are very close already with your initial presentation.
The main place that stands out to me is how the original tapes files had more transient response than the DIGI.

Basically they offered more saturation before becoming mushy at least based on how things were set up in your demonstration.

The taped files also have a bit more definition in the neighborhood of 100hz to 250 hz I'm thinking (Tape bump?) and there is more 5K shelf information on the taped files than on the RT and Grasso files.

In a nutshell the thing that is tricky with tape emu is not to go too heavy handed with high frequency loss and also the preservation of transients despite saturation.

Overall though I think you are very close already and look forward to what you'd try next based on my findings.

My main thing would be to retain the punch of the recording once it hits tape and if frequency response gets duller as a result of the tape formula I can correct that with some EQ if need be. However the smack and snap has to be retained at all costs if possible. This is crucial for things like drums.

If I get more in depth on sound by sound basis.

The cello was much darker than the result I got from tape.

The percussion lost some definition in the knock area, the thump sounded flatter and compressed versus the taped original. The top end was darker versus the tape.

The guitar actually sounded in the ballpark, I threw some hi shelf EQ on it and she sat nicely. (WOOT!)
Violin was on point (WOOT!)

The bass is less distorted to the original tape than it is with Grasso and RT. On the taped example the bass offers more punch and pluck, that is missing in the DIGI file.

Overall the main thing is the attack of each source seems to be dialed down on the DIGI examples. If there is a way to bring that attack back, I think that you may see some of the frequency issues addressed as well.

If anything I think what the golden ideal with RT is as a tape emu is to offer the duplicity of tape to be heavy handed and to also be a sonic tickler.

Yes I slammed these things to tape at +3db however as you can see the loss of high end is not overly significant by contrast, its more of a flavor enhancer in this situation.

Definitely see what can be "messed around" with in RTs saturation algos to go lighter on the transients when you hit the machine harder. I think the "sound" of tape is in the workings of RT but now we just need to get the actual reactivity of tape to play its part as well.

More transients and clarity with the saturation is key I think.

Thank you so much Quinto! I am very hopeful that you will figure out something and save the day for my band!
I will definitely post the finished product once we have this thing sorted!

Thanks

Peace
Illumination
Old 14th June 2012
  #1325
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quintosardo's Avatar
 

Great!
Nice detail, I'll take the mix to a new level...

Getting back the attack is very easy, because of Grasso dynamics knob (I think it has been killed there). Back soon...
Old 14th June 2012
  #1326
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Just wanted to say that RT AU 3.0.2 works nicely here, and that indeed the delay is great !
I really like RT, just wish there were more oversampling options (the higher the better).
Anyway great work Quinto !
Old 14th June 2012
  #1327
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quintosardo's Avatar
 

Thanks Nil

Thanks to illacov's feedback I'm thinking about a new control in Roundtone. A very simple, very small menu... let's get more control on dynamics while keeping it simple. But now full time on Bus v.2...
Old 14th June 2012
  #1328
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illacov's Avatar
 

Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by quintosardo View Post
Thanks Nil

Thanks to illacov's feedback I'm thinking about a new control in Roundtone. A very simple, very small menu... let's get more control on dynamics while keeping it simple. But now full time on Bus v.2...
When you are ready to beta that you already know I'm first in line LOL
We need to finish that song, you guys will flip when you hear it

Peace
Illumination
Old 15th June 2012
  #1329
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quintosardo's Avatar
 

Trying to compile a list for time sync'd delay:

1/16
(2/16)->1/8
3/16
(4/16)->1/4
5/16
(6/16)->3/8
7/16
(8/16)->1/2
9/16
(10/16)->5/8
11/16
(12/16)->3/4
13/16
(14/16)->7/8
15/16
(16/16)->1

9/8
(10/8)->5/4
11/8
(12/8)->3/2
13/8
(14/8)->7/4
15/8

(16/8)->2
17/8
(18/8)->9/4
19/8
(20/8)->5/4
21/8
(22/8)->11/4
23/8
(24/8)->3

13/4
(14/4)->7/2
15/4
(16/4)->4

Does it make sense for delay addicted?
Just ignore the values inside brackets.
Old 15th June 2012
  #1330
Gear Maniac
the more delayoptions the better i say
Old 15th June 2012
  #1331
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zeljkom's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ciggi View Post
the more delayoptions the better i say
+1.
Old 16th June 2012
  #1332
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quintosardo's Avatar
 

@illacov:

ok, here is a second attempt. Again, not trying to mix it exactly the same, but to get the "qualities".
(reference file in the last post in the previous page)

Now I know what we miss in Roundtone: a solid state saturating input stage! Missing it on those bass attacks.
A nice addition...
Attached Files

15ipschallenge_DIGI2.wav (7.32 MB, 131 views)

Old 16th June 2012
  #1333
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illacov's Avatar
 

Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by quintosardo View Post
@illacov:

ok, here is a second attempt. Again, not trying to mix it exactly the same, but to get the "qualities".
(reference file in the last post in the previous page)

Now I know what we miss in Roundtone: a solid state saturating input stage! Missing it on those bass attacks.
A nice addition...
Yes this is much closer. The high mid/top end thing I reference before is less obvious but still poking its head out on the cello, however in the other sounds its not so apparent.

The dynamics is definitely a tricky part eh?

I agree that solid state (perhaps even tube as well?) saturation would really improve the way you use Roundtone since most classic decks have some kind of iron in their path.

Ampex 440 comes to mind as one of the more popular tube(with transformers) decks that are used to great success to accomplish retro sounds as of late. I'm pretty sure if you implement this (I recall mentioning this sort of thing a good while ago, glad to see we are getting back to it) that it will really be popular with the Italian/Groove Funk scene. They definitely dig that Daptone vibe on their modern recordings and it would be awesome for them to have this sort of tool at their disposal without purchasing a vintage deck!

I am very excited because you are almost almost there, I just am really seeking the richness in the tape capture, the dynamics is an added plus, I cannot compliment you enough to committing to this. I'm pretty sure a good deal of other folks would back down from something so to the point and raw as this. My hat's off to you Quinto! Regardless of the outcome you're my hero!


This is definitely going to take up some CPU cycles considering all the stage's you're modeling but this is well worth it. I'd totally take the time to freeze every track in a session through this plugin just for the sake of getting that sound!


BTW I hope you're taking notes because while these other results you're getting aren't the 100% sound of my deck, they are DAMN AWESOME taken on their own face value and totally usable. So please make sure you document everything and be sure to let us know how you're accomplishing it!

Thanks again!

Peace
Illumination
Old 19th June 2012
  #1334
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valjean24601's Avatar
 

Hi Quinto,

I reopened an old project earlier that had roundtone on most of the channels and I have a disaster on my hands. All the tracks are playing completely out of time with each other and any attempt to try and deactivate any of the instances of Roundtone is causing Logic to crash.

I know this bug was reported in the initial version 3 of roundtone but I thought the subsequent update had fixed it. Getting your plugins to work correctly in Logic will be the death of you Quinto


Cheers, Mark.
Old 19th June 2012
  #1335
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quintosardo's Avatar
 

Hi Mark,
no, Logic is a great testbench. My death are the hosts which accept everything and don't let me know that there is something wrong

The new Roundtone reports a different latency to the host, so I guess simply switching off and on again every single instance (only the first time, and saving the project) should be enough.

I had just a single report like this one and it was solved by the user this way, before I had the time to answer "ok, looking at it..."

***EDIT
Oh, you already wrote you tried deactivating. I guess there is the hard route: save each preset, replace the instance and reload it...
Old 19th June 2012
  #1336
Gear Maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by valjean24601 View Post
Hi Quinto,

I reopened an old project earlier that had roundtone on most of the channels and I have a disaster on my hands. All the tracks are playing completely out of time with each other and any attempt to try and deactivate any of the instances of Roundtone is causing Logic to crash.

I know this bug was reported in the initial version 3 of roundtone but I thought the subsequent update had fixed it. Getting your plugins to work correctly in Logic will be the death of you Quinto


Cheers, Mark.
I had the same problem recently when i switched from a session that was made on logic 9 with RND2 to logic 8 and RND 3.0.2
havent tried the bypass thing yet
Old 19th June 2012
  #1337
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valjean24601's Avatar
 

Quinto, Yeah the problem is that when I click on the roundtone instance on my channel strip to try and deactivate it it's causing logic to crash, so I have no way of actually removing the plugin from the strip it would seem.

Cheers, Mark.
Old 19th June 2012
  #1338
Gear Nut
 

This crash still happens to me in Logic too.
Old 19th June 2012
  #1339
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quintosardo's Avatar
 

It is only when opening an old project which already included Roundtone v.2, right?

Does it let you remove v.2 and insert v.3?
Old 19th June 2012
  #1340
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valjean24601's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by quintosardo View Post
It is only when opening an old project which already included Roundtone v.2, right?

Does it let you remove v.2 and insert v.3?
That is correct Quinto, only happening with me on projects that already contain v2.

It will not allow me to remove the instances of v2 already loaded in the project. When I attempt to do so it crashes logic :( If it was as simple as removing the v2 instances and loading the v3 versions I'd be happy enough to do so, but I can't even remove the v2 instances without logic crashing.


Cheers, Mark.
Old 19th June 2012
  #1341
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by quintosardo View Post
It is only when opening an old project which already included Roundtone v.2, right?

Does it let you remove v.2 and insert v.3?
Ok, I just tested a new empty project and can't get Roundtone 3 to crash Logic at all. It's rock solid. I'm testing it pretty hard, clicking and closing and opening many times in a row and very fast. But, on the project that I originally had Roundtone 2 in it's very flaky and will crash easily and randomly. I've taken Roundtone 2 out of my components folder and replaced it with Roundtone 3.
Old 20th June 2012
  #1342
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quintosardo's Avatar
 

Ok,
so I guess the only way to get it working on old projects is to restore v.2, save the presets, remove Roundtone from the tracks, save and close. Replace with v.3 in the directory, open the project, insert instances an reload presets.
Not a smooth transition but looks lie a safe way...
Old 20th June 2012
  #1343
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by quintosardo View Post
Ok,
so I guess the only way to get it working on old projects is to restore v.2, save the presets, remove Roundtone from the tracks, save and close. Replace with v.3 in the directory, open the project, insert instances an reload presets.
Not a smooth transition but looks lie a safe way...
Ok, yes that works. Thanks Quinto. I just removed Roundtone 3 and reinserted it into my project. It wasn't an important or finished project so I didn't bother saving presets. It works perfectly now. No crashing and I can open and close it as many times and as fast as I want. Stable and solid.

EDIT: BTW - I didn't even have to save and close my project. Just removing Roundtone 3 from my track and then reinserting it did the trick.

Last edited by choros; 20th June 2012 at 01:26 AM.. Reason: more info
Old 20th June 2012
  #1344
Gear Addict
 

escusa Quinto but too download the v302 i will have to use the same link as v3? gracia
Old 20th June 2012
  #1345
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quiinto, I'd also like a link for ver 3.02. The link I have downloads ver. 3.01.
Old 20th June 2012
  #1346
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quintosardo's Avatar
 

All the links you used for 3.0.1 now download 3.0.2!
There is an error in the Win 64 bit file (if you are using that one), says 3.0.1 but is the new one
Old 20th June 2012
  #1347
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cool. thanks, quinto. It's working well.
Old 20th June 2012
  #1348
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by quintosardo View Post
All the links you used for 3.0.1 now download 3.0.2!
There is an error in the Win 64 bit file (if you are using that one), says 3.0.1 but is the new one
Yes Quinto,but actualy i didn't downloaded the 301 only 300,is it the same link?
Thanx
Old 20th June 2012
  #1349
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quintosardo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackers View Post
Yes Quinto,but actualy i didn't downloaded the 301 only 300,is it the same link?
Thanx
Yes, if you find something it is 3.0.2!
Old 21st June 2012
  #1350
Gear Addict
 

Anyone using this and toneboosters reelbus and maybe uad studer or ampex and can tell the differences used on single tracks ore used on all tracks???
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