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New Tape Emulation - "Roundtone" Saturation Plugins
Old 6th June 2012
  #1261
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Talking

I had 0 problems with the beta.

Works fine.

Me thinks that when the new version was compiled there may have been a bug that crept into place.

The bug only effects the bottom row of knobs apparently, which as it so happens are the newest features so something appears to have gummed up the works down thar.

I get an issue periodically where the B Wow or the Flange buttons stay orange even when I'm trying to bypass them.

However this didn't happen in the beta. So this problem didn't slip by anyone, it really is a surprise for all of us indeed.

I've noticed it happens when I have Sknote Plugs all on the same track.

My remedy is usually to change the mode from standalone to machine A and then back, it normally goes away after a while though.

I normally just turn the effects down to 0.

And eventually it turns off.

Too busy enjoying the good sounds to make a big fuss, it doesn't kill my workflow its just an annoyance for me.

Still re learning Roundtone and finding its much more flexible than thought before but even better with the new improvements.

I like Speed at 0, Action at 50%, EMPH at 0. B at 30%. For busses and just turn Speed up to 100% and Action down to 10% for tracks.

Peace
Illumination
Old 6th June 2012
  #1262
mfx
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Can't see any reason for aiming at Beta testers, you can not cover every angle and possible combination. That's technology.

Looking forward to 3.0.1.

Always happy to beta help

*creep*
Old 6th June 2012
  #1263
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I just reloaded the last beta, and for some reason it works. The release of 3 has the mentioned issues. So yes, this is a mystery. But if there is a dev that will not rest until it is right, it is our beloved Quinto.
Old 6th June 2012
  #1264
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Closed the new 3.0.1!
If anybody wants to test it (Win!), please send an email...
Old 6th June 2012
  #1265
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Software

Quote:
Originally Posted by quintosardo View Post
Closed the new 3.0.1!
If anybody wants to test it (Win!), please send an email...
Will you be sending out the update release by mail?
Old 7th June 2012
  #1266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnynash View Post
Will you be sending out the update release by mail?
Just replacing the files under the same links and announcing when done
Old 7th June 2012
  #1267
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Okay, thank you!
Old 7th June 2012
  #1268
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@Win users: Roundtone v.3.0.1 is available. Please download it from the same last link.

About the great beta-testers: as you probably imagined, it was an error in the licensing code! You couldn't see it.

Changes:

- wow and flange are now linked in a machine
- several new sync delay modes added. More divisions and longer up to 4 beats. You have to set it again in your projects if you used it
- parameter names now available for automation

Testing and setting Mac versions.
Old 7th June 2012
  #1269
Trying to use the old link for 3.0.0 to get the new 3.0.1 and am getting a 404 error!
Old 7th June 2012
  #1270
mfx
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All working fine now on Win7x64 in Cubase 6.5.

Thanks for your hard work and quick response to the fix.

I am loving this plugin with the delay, very smooth.
Old 7th June 2012
  #1271
Old 7th June 2012
  #1272
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thanks for the update, Q! This is working much better for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quintosardo View Post
@Win users: Roundtone v.3.0.1 is available. Please download it from the same last link.

About the great beta-testers: as you probably imagined, it was an error in the licensing code! You couldn't see it.

Changes:

- wow and flange are now linked in a machine
- several new sync delay modes added. More divisions and longer up to 4 beats. You have to set it again in your projects if you used it

Testing and setting Mac versions.
Old 7th June 2012
  #1273
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Great!
Mac files following soon.

Already working on the new flanger and chorus modes...
(but after Bus v.2)
Old 7th June 2012
  #1274
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possible option for mouse wheel support ?
Old 7th June 2012
  #1275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Home Studio 87 View Post
possible option for mouse wheel support ?
Good point. I'll look at it in the upcoming Bus v.2, to be added to all the interfaces.
Old 7th June 2012
  #1276
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thanks
Old 7th June 2012
  #1277
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quintosardo View Post
@Win users: Roundtone v.3.0.1 is available. Please download it from the same last link.

About the great beta-testers: as you probably imagined, it was an error in the licensing code! You couldn't see it.

Changes:

- wow and flange are now linked in a machine
- several new sync delay modes added. More divisions and longer up to 4 beats. You have to set it again in your projects if you used it

Testing and setting Mac versions.
Hey Quinto,
the new version works better, no more uncontrollable delay madness.
Though there is still some hassle with the on/off buttons. Some instances show up with every button activated, some with everything deactivated.
Then it's sometimes unpredictable if a function is activated or not >.<
Instance linking still doesn't work like in v2...when I open a new instance of roundtone and set for example "tape machine d", the shared parameters don't get shared to this instance (at least GUI doesn't get updated).

I'm using the 64 bit version of Roundtone v3 in Reaper 4.22 x64

Cheers,
Doc
Old 7th June 2012
  #1278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.Gunjah View Post
Hey Quinto,
the new version works better, no more uncontrollable delay madness.
Though there is still some hassle with the on/off buttons. Some instances show up with every button activated, some with everything deactivated.
Then it's sometimes unpredictable if a function is activated or not >.<
Instance linking still doesn't work like in v2...when I open a new instance of roundtone and set for example "tape machine d", the shared parameters don't get shared to this instance (at least GUI doesn't get updated).

I'm using the 64 bit version of Roundtone v3 in Reaper 4.22 x64

Cheers,
Doc
Does it happen in standalone mode, too??
Note that the gui is updated when the instance is active (on some hosts: while sound is passing through it)
Old 7th June 2012
  #1279
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what do you mean?
When I load a new instance of roundtone it is in standalone mode by default.
Then when I set it to any tape machine nothing happens.
In v2, when I switch to a tape machine the gui instantly switches all shared parameters to the tape machine settings.
Old 7th June 2012
  #1280
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It should work exactly like v.2

- loads in standalone mode, default parameter values
- move the knobs, These become this instance's standalone settings (*)
- select Machine A
- all the controls go to Machine A default values
- move the knobs, these become Machine A's settings (**)
- switch to standalone
- all the controls go to (*)
- switch to Machine A
- all the controls go to (**)

Sometimes you cannot see the knobs moving, because the instance you are looking at isn't processing audio and many hosts don't let the instance run while there isn't audio going through it (cpu load optimisation). Try it while the song is running and the test instances have audio going through.
Old 8th June 2012
  #1281
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Ok while waiting on the recent problems with V3 to be fixed i've still been working with Roundtone on projects just using the basic features.

I'm really sorry to say this but I'm just not as encouraged by it as others seem to be. In my own opinion the tape emulations still sound a lot darker than I'd like them to be when the action control goes anywhere near 12 o clock (even the new bright formula). I know a suggested remedy for this is to increase the emphasis control but all that seems to do is increase the 450Hz-900Hz area quite drastically which sounds horrible. To my ears the highs don't benefit at all from increasing the emphasis control even though that's what I'm led to believe it's suppoed to do?

I don't know if it's my ears but I also don't hear ANY difference when I'm using the speed control. My hearing is normally very critical but maybe there's something I'm just not getting here? Part of the problem may be that I'm used to actually dealing with tape machine parameters that most people are familiar with, whereas Quinto has attempted to introduce more clever functions and that has confused me to the point where Im fumbling in the dark and I'm not exactly sure what each control is intended to do in a real world scenario.

It would also be nice to have an indication of when you're actually hitting saturation with the plugin. I personally like a plugin that is 'interactive' and gives you information about what you're doing. The meter in Roundtone is pointless to me as it tells me nothing that my DAW meter isn't already telling me. Even an LED system of Green/Amber/Red to indicate what level of saturation we're hitting would be more intuitive.

I'm still looking forward to seeing the new update, I'll continue to work/use the plugin in an attempt to learn it better as i'm a big fan of your work Quinto and some of my issues may be my own problem as opposed to anything that's wrong with the plugin.

Cheers, Mark.
Old 8th June 2012
  #1282
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To get a brighter sound, just reduce speed around zero. It is very sensitive.
If you want to hear what it does, load a drums loop with bright attacks, set action to 100% (dull sound), emphasis 100% (even darker), move speed from 0 to 20%, with attention to attacks...

The saturation starts at about -18dBfs, maybe a dot on the new meter would help.
Note: the meter doesn't say the same thing the meter in the mixer's channel says!!! It is input level just before the tape! It is an internal meter, the real interesting measure.

Yes, I released the tape machine interface (and tape formulations and such), I was a lot more interested in controlling the engine in a wider mode (speed, action and emphasis).

And, please, don't be sorry to say what you think. It doesn't help here!!!
Old 8th June 2012
  #1283
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quintosardo View Post
To get a brighter sound, just reduce speed around zero. It is very sensitive.
If you want to hear what it does, load a drums loop with bright attacks, set action to 100% (dull sound), emphasis 100% (even darker), move speed from 0 to 20%, with attention to attacks...

The saturation starts at about -18dBfs, maybe a dot on the new meter would help.
Note: the meter doesn't say the same thing the meter in the mixer's channel says!!! It is input level just before the tape! It is an internal meter, the real interesting measure.

Yes, I released the tape machine interface (and tape formulations and such), I was a lot more interested in controlling the engine in a wider mode (speed, action and emphasis).

And, please, don't be sorry to say what you think. It doesn't help here!!!

So Quinto are you saying that moving the emphasis closer to 100% actually dulls the sound? That's contrary to what I orignally believed but that would explain why I'm getting far more mid content when I do it as opposed to high end?


Is there somewhere you can direct me that will explain to me exactly what speed, action and emphasis does? As I say, I actually come from a background where I'm familiar with regular tape machine parameters so I'm finding it more difficult to get my head around what each of your controls does and how that relates to controls I'm familiar with on a machine.

Cheers, Mark.
Old 8th June 2012
  #1284
It would also be helpful to have an updated PDF manual posted on the site that corresponds to all of the new changes/updates. The current manual is for v1.03.
Old 8th June 2012
  #1285
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Emphasis controls how much color the tape emulation gets. The color isn't static equalisation, it translates to harmonic content. E.g. if the tape formula you select has a head bump around 100Hz, you get more saturation and around that and harmonics from that range. Curves are compensated for (I never include static eq curbes in plugins), so you get new harmonics and frequency dependent dynamics but a flat eq. In this example higher emphasis means higher hed bump.

Action controls how much things happen. E.g. if high levels saturate transformers and tape, giving more harmonics and higher rms and loss of highs, more actions means more harmonics, more saturation, less highs.

Speed controls how fast things happen. In the example above, higher speed means that strong transient saturate faster, highs are lost faster. This is why I said decerease speed to get brighter attacks.

Compensating highs by an eq post- Roundtone makes perfectly sense! You keep new harmonics, frequency dependent saturation and such.

So:

- Speed: how fast things happen
- Action: how much things happen
- Emphasis: how much character
Old 8th June 2012
  #1286
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quintosardo's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bleen View Post
It would also be helpful to have an updated PDF manual posted on the site that corresponds to all of the new changes/updates. The current manual is for v1.03.
This is right. Updating the manual after this Mac version fix.
Note: the manual is updated to v.2 withthat addendum available together with the manual from the website.

Writing here again: If you are using Win please download again from the last link, it has been updated to v.3.0.1
Old 8th June 2012
  #1287
Quote:
Originally Posted by quintosardo View Post
- Speed: how fast things happen
I can see how this might seem confusing; in analog tape-land, faster speed usually means better frequency response/more highs, but in Roundtone it means more saturation more quickly.
Old 8th June 2012
  #1288
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quintosardo View Post
Emphasis controls how much color the tape emulation gets. The color isn't static equalisation, it translates to harmonic content. E.g. if the tape formula you select has a head bump around 100Hz, you get more saturation and around that and harmonics from that range. Curves are compensated for (I never include static eq curbes in plugins), so you get new harmonics and frequency dependent dynamics but a flat eq. In this example higher emphasis means higher hed bump.

Action controls how much things happen. E.g. if high levels saturate transformers and tape, giving more harmonics and higher rms and loss of highs, more actions means more harmonics, more saturation, less highs.

Speed controls how fast things happen. In the example above, higher speed means that strong transient saturate faster, highs are lost faster. This is why I said decerease speed to get brighter attacks.
Ok so when we select an algorithm (30ips hard, 30ips medium etc) shouldn't we also have some info on what characteristics the tape formula has particularly regarding the headbump if we want to have a full understanding of what the emphasis control is doing? All we have to go on is the tape speed, and knowing you haven't modelled any one particular machine, it's somewhat vague that all we have access to is the tape speed. We have no further information on what bearing this selected tape speed will do to any given sound as depending on the machine being used among other things these tape speeds can have drastically different sonic imprints. The tape speed itself is seemingly meaningless and redundant on it's own considering we have so many different controls to play with. The 15ips soft and 30ips hard can be made to sound identical depending on how you use the other controls for example. I think this is the small problem that arises by not modelling one specific machine.

The relationship between emphasis, action and speed is still confusing me and i'm finding it difficult to relate them to real world scenarios as regards how they work together. To me the distinction between emphasis and action seems blurred because both seem to induce saturation and added harmonic content and I'm wondering why there is need for both?

My understanding of speed is that it is a glorified transient controller? But shouldn't there be enough transient saturation taking place with the action control alone?

My own personal preference would be to just have access to the selected tape speeds and a separate bias control and use the input knob on the plugin to add/reduce the amount of saturation i'm getting. With the new added features of wow/noise etc I think that would serve most peoples needs perfectly.


For anyone reading this, I'm not bashing Quinto or his plugin in any way by speaking of these things, quite the opposite - I've so much respect for the man's work that I'm doing my best to understand how to get the best from this plugin. Maybe ultimately this will not be the tape sim for me but i'll sure as hell learn it inside out before I make any decision like that

Cheers, Mark.
Old 9th June 2012
  #1289
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bleen View Post
I can see how this might seem confusing; in analog tape-land, faster speed usually means better frequency response/more highs, but in Roundtone it means more saturation more quickly.
Yes, because it isn't tape speed but model speed
Tape speed is in the menu, of course. it is not a simple tape_speed knob because the algorithms aren't just variations.
Old 9th June 2012
  #1290
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Quote:
Originally Posted by valjean24601 View Post
Ok so when we select an algorithm (30ips hard, 30ips medium etc) shouldn't we also have some info on what characteristics the tape formula has particularly regarding the headbump if we want to have a full understanding of what the emphasis control is doing?
Yes, they are similar to the standard tables. Each speed has its typical bumps and curves.
Roundtone isn't based on sampling (Volterra kernels and such), the measurements through a tape machine (S800, I never directly refer to brands and model, but that's it) have been mixed with lots of listening and trials, to get good smooth useful models, not the snapshot of a special machine/setting. The three knobs let you stretch the model in several directions. I don't care playing the I have a xy machine game here, it is more about extracting the useful side effects from the analog (because they are all defects, let's remember it )

Quote:
Originally Posted by valjean24601 View Post
All we have to go on is the tape speed, and knowing you haven't modelled any one particular machine, it's somewhat vague that all we have access to is the tape speed. We have no further information on what bearing this selected tape speed will do to any given sound as depending on the machine being used among other things these tape speeds can have drastically different sonic imprints.
Yes, a particular tape machine
Then set several parameters free to let us stretch the models and get a wider palette, under just three knobs.
You can know very well what happens under the tape speed settings (menu) referring to standard curves/head bumps.
They are not eq curves, though, in Roundtone. Because they are compensated for, to get a flat response. You can get e.g. the sensation of some basses added, but it is some harmonics and saturation from the low range (depending on where the bumps are).

Quote:
Originally Posted by valjean24601 View Post
The tape speed itself is seemingly meaningless and redundant on it's own considering we have so many different controls to play with. The 15ips soft and 30ips hard can be made to sound identical depending on how you use the other controls for example. I think this is the small problem that arises by not modelling one specific machine.
No, the parameters are absolutely unrelated!
You cannot make algorithms overlap.
Tape speed, algorithm, speed, action, emphasis are completely orthogonal. No overlapping, you cannot make one algorithm sound like the other one (well, you actually can, but not on every source).

Quote:
Originally Posted by valjean24601 View Post
The relationship between emphasis, action and speed is still confusing me and i'm finding it difficult to relate them to real world scenarios as regards how they work together. To me the distinction between emphasis and action seems blurred because both seem to induce saturation and added harmonic content and I'm wondering why there is need for both?
Emphasis and action are completely unrelated.
I'll make it simple to try to explain better what I mean. Let's imagine a tape speed with just a head bump around 100Hz.

With moderate input level you get just this head bump, so some harmonic coming from around 100 Hz and some saturation there.
With higher levels, the tape (and more) starts to saturate. Bass frequencies get control over highs. More bass and relative harmonics, less highs.
The saturation has its own time constants, spread inside the model.

Speed scales this set of time constants. If a peak saturates and lets lows come through more than highs, a higher speed will save some attack highs before loosing them (well, not that simple, but...)

Action sets how much you get saturated lows around 100 Hz and less highs (and more actions)

Emphasis sets a scaling of the bumps (and everything else is "color", like transformer and head saturation). More emphasis, more pronounced bumps (and more).


Quote:
Originally Posted by valjean24601 View Post
My understanding of speed is that it is a glorified transient controller? But shouldn't there be enough transient saturation taking place with the action control alone?
No, it is not a transient controller, even though you can imagine it like one to keep the concept in mind while using it. This is how I do, I think of the attack control of a compressor. Set it slow enough, some attack will pass through.
it is not really like that, of course.

Yes, the action control alone sets the amount of saturation (together with gain staging, of course). But the static part.
Speed is the dynamic part: time constants. How fast action things happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by valjean24601 View Post
My own personal preference would be to just have access to the selected tape speeds and a separate bias control and use the input knob on the plugin to add/reduce the amount of saturation i'm getting. With the new added features of wow/noise etc I think that would serve most peoples needs perfectly.
Yes, but they are orthogonal, they don't overlap.
I could remove the action control and we'd loose a degree of freedom.

Bias is missing in Roundtone. We could add it in a future update, though, if it will sound useful

Quote:
Originally Posted by valjean24601 View Post
For anyone reading this, I'm not bashing Quinto or his plugin in any way by speaking of these things, quite the opposite - I've so much respect for the man's work that I'm doing my best to understand how to get the best from this plugin. Maybe ultimately this will not be the tape sim for me but i'll sure as hell learn it inside out before I make any decision like that
Cheers, Mark.
Thanks! I think it is clear here
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