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New Tape Emulation - "Roundtone" Saturation Plugins
Old 9th March 2012
  #961
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quintosardo View Post
E.g. to model a memory effect in a circuit modeled "device" you _can_ (not necessarily have to) build a model through components like resistors, inductance and such (e.g. tape-head interaction modeled as a n-th order electronic circuit). You get an overall circuit model (hardware circuit plus sub-models like magnetic tape). The best emulations try to model it as a whole, if the interaction is interesting.

***edit
Oh, ok, "tightly" could be the right word
Why is tightly and device in quotes?
Old 9th March 2012
  #962
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OK... I really have no idea what you're talking about but this is probably OT anyway. I'll get out of the way now. Sorry.
Old 9th March 2012
  #963
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Amels View Post
Why is tightly and device in quotes?
"Device" is in quotes because it is not a device anymore, being a digital model, so just code!
"Tightly" is in quotes because I was referring to the word, not to its meaning!

Yes, there are lots of memory effects modeled through circuit equivalents, being them magnets, or transformer cores, or photocells...

Why talking about emulations is OT ?? Looks perfectly IT

***Edit
Oh, I didn't look at your nick!
Old 9th March 2012
  #964
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quintosardo View Post
"Device" is in quotes because it is not a device anymore, being a digital model, so just code!
"Tightly" is in quotes because I was referring to the word, not to its meaning!

Yes, there are lots of memory effects modeled through circuit equivalents, being them magnets, or transformer cores, or photocells...

Why talking about emulations is OT ?? Looks perfectly IT

***Edit
Oh, I didn't look at your nick!
I can see you modeling a non-ideal transformer as an equivalent circuit... just not the hysteresis effect as a circuit. You can model it mathematically... just not seeing a circuit for that. Are you sure you mean circuit and not the mathematical model?
Old 9th March 2012
  #965
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Amels View Post
I can see you modeling a non-ideal transformer as an equivalent circuit... just not the hysteresis effect as a circuit. You can model it mathematically... just not seeing a circuit for that. Are you sure you mean circuit and not the mathematical model?
Well, that's simple. I start from schematics. Then I look for some simple gross emulation of non-components parts like a transformer. Then I struggle to include this part in the circuits as much as I can. From here on listening tests are started. Sometimes circuit replacement for non-circuital parts are effective. It's all math, after all, and realtime dsp requires such a level of simplification that starting from circuits or from other kinds of modeling (tables, differential equations, etc.) can converge to the same kind of mathematical structure.

You know, marketing pushes for a bold "circuit modeling" or "analog modeling" definition, but it's just a formal scheme. That's all mathematical modeling.

My feeling is that the more I can bring the system to the same formal dimension and integrate it (e.g. model magnets with circuits near a circuit modeled electronic network) the more the overall model sounds organic and smoothly interacting.

If you look at a transformer core as a non-linear filter which saturates and changes its frequency response with level, and then model this filter as a circuit... etc. etc.

Not a single model is strictly circuit modeled or table based or differential eq based or anything (I mean not only one method), here, because the final freehand touch is essential for us to like it
Old 9th March 2012
  #966
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quintosardo View Post
Well, that's simple. I start from schematics. Then I look for some simple gross emulation of non-components parts like a transformer. Then I struggle to include this part in the circuits as much as I can. From here on listening tests are started. Sometimes circuit replacement for non-circuital parts are effective. It's all math, after all, and realtime dsp requires such a level of simplification that starting from circuits or from other kinds of modeling (tables, differential equations, etc.) can converge to the same kind of mathematical structure.

You know, marketing pushes for a bold "circuit modeling" or "analog modeling" definition, but it's just a formal scheme. That's all mathematical modeling.

My feeling is that the more I can bring the system to the same formal dimension and integrate it (e.g. model magnets with circuits near a circuit modeled electronic network) the more the overall model sounds organic and smoothly interacting.

If you look at a transformer core as a non-linear filter which saturates and changes its frequency response with level, and then model this filter as a circuit... etc. etc.
It'd be interesting to see an electrical circuit model of real transformer. The math model is bad enough without having to resynth circuits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by quintosardo View Post
Not a single model is strictly circuit modeled or table based or differential eq based or anything (I mean not only one method), here, because the final freehand touch is essential for us to like it
Yeah... you always need to check it at the end but if you've done your homework, there's none (almost) tweaking to be done. It's easy to make a mistake... That's why a comparison is always needed... as an idiot check.

It sounds like you're on the right path.

Best,

/Dave
Old 9th March 2012
  #967
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Yes, I know those models

Well, a nice sound and behavior is what matters after tons of maths...
Old 9th March 2012
  #968
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Home Studio 87's Avatar
 

yes all we want is a "nice sound" !
Old 10th March 2012
  #969
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackBackDrop View Post
Sent to your yahoo!
Got the pictures, very nice!

Back soon with some audio related to those pictures.
Old 10th March 2012
  #970
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Talking

What's really dope at this moment is how Dave Amels from Anamod and Quinto are kicking it about modeling hardware circuits!

A huge fan of both parties btw

Peace
Illumination
Old 10th March 2012
  #971
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quintosardo View Post
Yes, I know those models

Well, a nice sound and behavior is what matters after tons of maths...
I know... I lot of people try to take the shortcut of using a generalized algorithm and tweaking to make it sound a certain way which never gets you all the way there. It's always necessary to understand ALL of the math and science behind modeling. Too may people have excused away the short comings in the tweaking / experimenter method by saying it sounds good enough. I'm glad you're trying to do it the right way and not by just tweaking.

Best,

/Dave
Old 10th March 2012
  #972
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Oh, simple tweaking doesn't last. You know, after some use our brain easily identifies a model and gets bored, if the model isn't complex and organic enough.
Old 11th March 2012
  #973
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illacov's Avatar
 

Talking

I just want super clean tapey mode.

Maybe Grasso is better at that?

Dunno but me want clean tape! GP9 30IPS baby. Yummity Yum Yum Yum!

At some point Quinto what you may want to implement is a "hidden panel" mode where each tape EMU has an EQ curve that the user can make custom settings for. How awesome would that be?

Synesthesia has something similar to this but is a totally different yet equally awesome platform

Methinks I need to try them together but would love to see a similar implementation into Roundtone since this is the way all pro decks are made with their adjustable bias etc....

Peace
Illumination
Old 11th March 2012
  #974
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quintosardo's Avatar
 

No tape in Grasso, just tubes and dynamics

Yes, new clean modes in Roundtone, you'll see them in beta

Customisable eqs and headbumps are harder to get, because, as opposite to synestesia, there are not discrete eq and ws modules in Roundtone. And the concept in Roundtone was to emulate tested devices and formulas in an easy to use machine.

Classic features are being added, though, like wow, flutter and so on. Adjustable bias will be probably added soon, too. Roundtone gets a lot of praise and it will keep growing
Old 11th March 2012
  #975
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mljung's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by quintosardo View Post

Yes, new clean modes in Roundtone, you'll see them in beta
I may also be interested in a beta..!?

::
Mads
Old 12th March 2012
  #976
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quintosardo View Post
Oh, simple tweaking doesn't last. You know, after some use our brain easily identifies a model and gets bored, if the model isn't complex and organic enough.
tweaking = model???
Old 12th March 2012
  #977
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No, I mean simply connecting standard modules (like a waveshaper, a filter, etc.) and tweaking this network until it sounds similar to something like a tube cannot be enough, because after some use it starts showing you what it is. Maybe you don't get why but you get bored by the behaviour of the effect. I thought you meant this with "tweaking"?
I agree, the deeper you go on the better results you can get, even though in digital it is often a tradeoff between quality and performances, you know.

Are you still loving digital modeling or more focused on analog hw? That ATS-1 with cards looks like a beautiful concept, even though I still didn't use one (but I'd love to).
Oh, but I own an old beautiful Voce Hammond hw emulation (beside a real A100). One of the first models, the grey 1U rack one. Beautiful. Going OT here
Old 12th March 2012
  #978
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quintosardo View Post
No, I mean simply connecting standard modules (like a waveshaper, a filter, etc.) and tweaking this network until it sounds similar to something like a tube cannot be enough, because after some use it starts showing you what it is. Maybe you don't get why but you get bored by the behaviour of the effect. I thought you meant this with "tweaking"?
I agree, the deeper you go on the better results you can get, even though in digital it is often a tradeoff between quality and performances, you know.

Are you still loving digital modeling or more focused on analog hw? That ATS-1 with cards looks like a beautiful concept, even though I still didn't use one (but I'd love to).
Oh, but I own an old beautiful Voce Hammond hw emulation (beside a real A100). One of the first models, the grey 1U rack one. Beautiful. Going OT here
I'm sorry... I think it's a language thing and we are saying the same thing. I think you meant modules and not models.

Glad you're enjoyed the DMI-64 Mark II which is now over 20 years old. Please change the battery with the power on if you don't want to lose your presets.

BTW - the problem with digital models is digital audio... not the models as is proved by the AnaMod process. They both use the same mathematical models.
Old 12th March 2012
  #979
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Dave, you seem very interested in Quinto's roundtone plugin, have you tried it and what are your opinions on it?

I just purchased it late last night and i've been working with it all morning, in my opinion it's the best sounding tape emulation plugin i've tried including Waves mpx, DUY tape, Mcdsp ac2 (which I bought and had been using up until now) and Airwindows totape2.


Well done again Quinto, between stripbus and now roundtone I'm a very happy man.


Cheers, Mark.
Old 12th March 2012
  #980
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Amels View Post
I'm sorry... I think it's a language thing and we are saying the same thing. I think you meant modules and not models.

Glad you're enjoyed the DMI-64 Mark II which is now over 20 years old. Please change the battery with the power on if you don't want to lose your presets.

BTW - the problem with digital models is digital audio... not the models as is proved by the AnaMod process. They both use the same mathematical models.
Yes, it's a language thing! I just meant I agree with you and the philosophy that I imagine behind your products.

I'm not sure that's a Mark II! So it could be even older than that
Got it on Ebay and loved it immediately, even if I got it with a broken display and I program it through midi. And that analog drive inside...

I remember the AnaMod concept getting my attention immediately, that analog modeling is really intriguing. I hope I'll have the opportunity to try some devices.
Old 12th March 2012
  #981
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Thank you Mark, I'm glad you like it!
Old 12th March 2012
  #982
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quintosardo View Post
I'm not sure that's a Mark II! So it could be even older than that
Got it on Ebay and loved it immediately, even if I got it with a broken display and I program it through midi. And that analog drive inside...

I have displays if you need one. The only gray product we made is the DMI.
Old 12th March 2012
  #983
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Quote:
Originally Posted by valjean24601 View Post
Dave, you seem very interested in Quinto's roundtone plugin, have you tried it and what are your opinions on it?
I'm sorry to say I haven't tried it. I don't have a digital rig which will run it now and I've been super busy. I'll definitely try it when I can.
Old 12th March 2012
  #984
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Amels View Post
I have displays if you need one. The only gray product we made is the DMI.
Oh, yes, I was sure it was a DMI, but I was out of office and I couldn't remember the markII. Yes, it is. There is a snapshot on Voce website, too.
This whole analog emulation concept is great.
Old 13th March 2012
  #985
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So... I may have missed this in the thread, but did you use a tape machine for your models? If so, which ones?
Old 13th March 2012
  #986
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave_Amels View Post
So... I may have missed this in the thread, but did you use a tape machine for your models? If so, which ones?
I still don't know if the names can be named. That one
Another great source of info while getting help for the analysis are the papers from the manufacturers of the tape. You know, their studies for a more transparent tape recording are great help for a less transparent emulated tape recording today.
Old 13th March 2012
  #987
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Taurean's Avatar
Q, you mean, The Stud

Old 13th March 2012
  #988
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Er... I don't know...

Seriously, never understood if the gears used during such analysis can be named or not, I prefer to avoid it. Doesn't add anything to the result, anyway. Even the GTS-39, which is a specific model, isn't explicitly related to it.
Old 13th March 2012
  #989
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quintosardo View Post
Er... I don't know...

Seriously, never understood if the gears used during such analysis can be named or not, I prefer to avoid it. Doesn't add anything to the result, anyway. Even the GTS-39, which is a specific model, isn't explicitly related to it.
Go on Quinto, give us a clue haha
Old 13th March 2012
  #990
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TranscendingM View Post
The Stud
Quote:
Originally Posted by quintosardo View Post
Er...
lol
Topic:
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