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IRCAM Tools by Flux:: Reverb & Delay Plugins
Old 8th May 2010
  #91
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Gemylon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyoteous View Post
I Although, much of it is whining about the price.
Whining ?
No, comments there is !

And, I think it is a positive thing to give feedback to developers
on issues like this.
After all, we are also customers,
though (only) working in a 'Home Studio'...

Hmm...


G
Old 8th May 2010
  #92
ValhallaDSP
 
seancostello's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CKK View Post
Again - no it is not yet well explained. There's absolutely no logic in high prices when talking software since when the code is written, there are no more expenses to be considered. When building hardware units (cars, stereo's etc) you have "fixed" expenses on each and every unit you produce - thats not the case with software.
OK, let's say that it takes 3 developers 1 year to develop a plugin. Let's say that the plugin is VERY successful, and sells 1500 copies over a 3 year lifespan. Let's also say that the developers all live in a major metropolitan area, like, say, San Francisco, as most of them do, and need to make enough money to live there. How much should that plugin cost?

Now let's say that the plugin also leverages technology from a huge government research center, that has spent millions of dollars per year on research and development of digital audio technologies since, say, the late 1970's. Let's also say that this is a government research center that expects to be able to make money off of their research (which wasn't necessarily the case for US public universities using public funding for quite some time). How much should the plugin cost now?

I don't know how many developers Flux has, or how long this project took to develop, or how much of a cut IRCAM gets. My point is that time is the new capital, not materials. An Eventide uses DSPs that cost under $10 nowadays, at least for Freescale DSPs of similar power (well, probably much higher power - you wouldn't design around the older Freescale DSPs). You have to go to a very high number of units sold before your dollars for materials outstrip the money spent in research. Consumer audio units that sell in the millions will achieve such a ratio, where spending 6 man-months on code optimization will be worthwhile in order to use a cheaper processor. Things that sell in the thousands (which is pretty successful for prosumer audio products as discussed on Gearslutz) usually end up costing far more in research than in materials, at least for digital devices.

Let's not ignore the support expenses needed for plugins. Getting code to run in the 3 major plugin formats out there, on 2 hardware platforms, with 80+ possible hosts, requires a fair degree of support. The SDKs for most of these plugin formats have sparse and confusing documentation, and many hosts don't conform exactly to the specs (which are shoddy and confusing as well).
Old 8th May 2010
  #93
CKK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seancostello View Post
OK, let's say that it takes 3 developers 1 year to develop a plugin. Let's say that the plugin is VERY successful, and sells 1500 copies over a 3 year lifespan. Let's also say that the developers all live in a major metropolitan area, like, say, San Francisco, as most of them do, and need to make enough money to live there. How much should that plugin cost?

Now let's say that the plugin also leverages technology from a huge government research center, that has spent millions of dollars per year on research and development of digital audio technologies since, say, the late 1970's. Let's also say that this is a government research center that expects to be able to make money off of their research (which wasn't necessarily the case for US public universities using public funding for quite some time). How much should the plugin cost now?

I don't know how many developers Flux has, or how long this project took to develop, or how much of a cut IRCAM gets. My point is that time is the new capital, not materials. An Eventide uses DSPs that cost under $10 nowadays, at least for Freescale DSPs of similar power (well, probably much higher power - you wouldn't design around the older Freescale DSPs). You have to go to a very high number of units sold before your dollars for materials outstrip the money spent in research. Consumer audio units that sell in the millions will achieve such a ratio, where spending 6 man-months on code optimization will be worthwhile in order to use a cheaper processor. Things that sell in the thousands (which is pretty successful for prosumer audio products as discussed on Gearslutz) usually end up costing far more in research than in materials, at least for digital devices.

Let's not ignore the support expenses needed for plugins. Getting code to run in the 3 major plugin formats out there, on 2 hardware platforms, with 80+ possible hosts, requires a fair degree of support. The SDKs for most of these plugin formats have sparse and confusing documentation, and many hosts don't conform exactly to the specs (which are shoddy and confusing as well).
All you have written here is equal for ALL software developers - and in some "magic" way, many are able to develop and sell within a "fair" selling price.

Again - its VERY simple. When the development is done, so are the expenses when dealing with software.

Now, you have two options. To sell expensive to a few - or to sell less expensive to a lot. And that is pretty much all there is to it. It should be easy to understand - lets say it was priced 500€ (reasonable), the software would be sold to 3 hobbyist/bedroom/part timer and a pro user - if the price is 1400€, it will only be sold to the single pro user - this will lead to less income for the company. Things would look different IF it was based on hardware mainly because of "out of house" labour, shipping costs, environment taxes etc. giving a fixed cost on each and every unit sold.

This is my last post on the subject - I will not pollute this thread any more than I already have. Flux makes wonderful plugins - I just think that they are to expensive for their own good. They could make a lot more money if they decided to go a notch or two down in their prices, and thereby sell more "units".
Old 8th May 2010
  #94
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

I don't require the company to defend its valuation schema, I'm just bummed I can't afford it 'cause I want to use the stuff!

What I want to do is experiment with the kind of radical/surreal transfiguration already suggested by Melodyne DNA, although on another axis.

It's not something I need, it's something I want.

I love sound!

- c
Old 8th May 2010
  #95
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyoteous View Post
I'd like to thank you guys, especially Felix, for actually talking about the products now. Although, much of it is whining about the price. I suppose that's better than alcoholics discussing how tall, fat and bald they are... or being chastised by elbo and others for starting a thread about an actual new product.

Also, from another thread:

I heard a rumor that Flux is bundling Epure II into their new EQute bundle. They have just about every other possible combination of their nine plug-ins covered, right? Now, of course, they only have one EQ plug-in to put in the bundle and the price is the same, but it has a new cute name and can be re-trotted out as a new product.

heh


Yeah, since I came on this ship there's been a bit of re-bundling, basically because you guys, the customers, asked for it...


Cheers,
/felix
Old 8th May 2010
  #96
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CKK View Post
Again - no it is not yet well explained. There's absolutely no logic in high prices when talking software since when the code is written, there are no more expenses to be considered. When building hardware units (cars, stereo's etc) you have "fixed" expenses on each and every unit you produce - thats not the case with software.

And I do not agree with the statement that this is "a niche product". If the pricing was right, this software would be bought and used by perhaps thousands of "hobbyists/bedroom producers" AND the big league studios as well. For a software company this is a "win/win" situation - at least if they want to make money.

To me - this is plain bad business.
Well, it's not that easy, if you lower the price to achieve a wider user base in another segment, you change everything about the business. Flux:: is focused on very high end tools, which also tends to become quite advanced and demands a lot of base knowledge of the user. If we'd go for a broader market with less competent (expressed as in general, dont ge me wrong here!) users, we'd have to spend a fortune both in time, staff and in the end, cash, to educate our users of how to use the stuff (we already have a little share of this already!), or to lower the ambitions and make the tools "easier" to use and possibly then less advanced... and we simply are not interested in this.

So, one business model works for one entrepreneur, but not for the other.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CKK View Post
Again - its VERY simple. When the development is done, so are the expenses when dealing with software.
This is simply not true at all... especially not if you make stuff that is supposed to keep up with Apple's mood changes... We have not charged a cent for compatibility updates, and won't ever do, that's part of what you pay for when you purchase our software.





Cheers,
/Felix
Old 8th May 2010
  #97
CKK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix (Flux) View Post
Well, it's not that easy, if you lower the price to achieve a wider user base in another segment, you change everything about the business. Flux:: is focused on very high end tools, which also tends to become quite advanced and demands a lot of base knowledge of the user. If we'd go for a broader market with less competent (in general, dont ge me wrong here!) users, we'd have to spend a fortune both in time, staff and in the end, cash, to educate our users of how to use the stuff (we already have a little share of this already!), or to lower the ambitions and make the tools "easier" to use and possibly then less advanced... and we simply are not interested in this.

So, one business model works for one entrepreneur, but not for the other.




Cheers,
/Felix
Two words here - PDF manual - bundled with the software download (as most developers do anyway). All you have to do when getting the "I'm confused" mail, is to have an auto reply with the words "RTFM". So, Im sorry but I do not buy that "excuse" - I find it rather lame and just slightly arrogant.

To me - this sounds more like snobbery and a massive dose of "you dont know ****" than a "healthy" business practice. But hey, who am I to say.

EDIT: Damn - now I broke my promise about not posting here anymore. I will stop now - I PROMIIIIIISE
Old 9th May 2010
  #98
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CKK View Post
Two words here - PDF manual - bundled with the software download (as most developers do anyway). All you have to do when getting the "I'm confused" mail, is to have an auto reply with the words "RTFM". So, Im sorry but I do not buy that "excuse" - I find it rather lame and just slightly arrogant.

To me - this sounds more like snobbery and a massive dose of "you dont know ****" than a "healthy" business practice. But hey, who am I to say.

EDIT: Damn - now I broke my promise about not posting here anymore. I will stop now - I PROMIIIIIISE

I am sorry to hear that you feel like that.

And regarding the manual, yeah, it's there, and you can download it anytime in our download area as well.






Cheers,
/Felix
Old 9th May 2010
  #99
CKK
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CKK's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix (Flux) View Post
I am sorry to hear that you feel like that.

And regarding the manual, yeah, it's there, and you can download it anytime in our download area as well.






Cheers,
/Felix
Hey Felix, dont get me wrong here. You guys make wonderful products - no doubt, and I WILL buy from you no matter the price. I just want you to make more money - and the way to do that, is to lower your prices.heh


EDIT: Double damn - I did it again!!! This time I promise yada yada yada
Old 9th May 2010
  #100
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Silver Sonya's Avatar
 

Wow, the innuendos/insinuations of post #96 are, to say the least, bold.

It was certainly... ummm... intrepid of you to say that stuff in public.

- c
Old 9th May 2010
  #101
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
Wow, the innuendos/insinuations of post #96 are, to say the least, bold.

It was certainly... ummm... intrepid of you to say that stuff in public.

- c
Well, as I said, please don't misunderstand what I said there, but it's certainly a fact that some of our tools do demand a certain level of the user, it's within the design of them...

(And if it sound bold, I am sorry for that, English is far from my first language.. )



Cheers,
/Felix
Old 9th May 2010
  #102
CKK
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CKK's Avatar
 

I got the explanation from Felix - and I agree with him on this one.

Their business model is as fair as can be, and their pricing policy is firm.

As said, I will buy SPAT when it is out. This time I'm out of here - I promise.

Old 9th May 2010
  #103
Well, I'm very excited that these tools are even commercially available... and compared to trying to figure out AudioSculpt with no manual on a lab computer back in the early 90s, this certainly makes the interesting electroacoustic research of IRCAM available and usable in a way that wasn't before.
Old 9th May 2010
  #104
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Plush's Avatar
I'll check in again on this product in 1 year.

It looks sophisticated and useful.
Old 9th May 2010
  #105
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Plush's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
Wow, the innuendos/insinuations of post #96 are, to say the least, bold.

It was certainly... ummm... intrepid of you to say that stuff in public.

- c
I see nothing unusual at all with what the Felix said. These tools are for specialized use and they are a small operation not interested in "phone support."

Since I don't follow your point, what exactly do you mean?
Old 9th May 2010
  #106
Lives for gear
 
Gemylon's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
Wow, the innuendos/insinuations of post #96 are, to say the least, bold.

It was certainly... ummm... intrepid of you to say that stuff in public.

- c

Totally agree !


G
Old 9th May 2010
  #107
OMU
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I had better support from many companies that sell copies to the "non-pro" users as well.

This says something.
Old 9th May 2010
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemylon View Post
Whining ?
No, comments there is !
Well, that's what we call it in South Mylon... heh

Seriously though, I get your point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silver Sonya View Post
I don't require the company to defend its valuation schema, I'm just bummed I can't afford it 'cause I want to use the stuff!
Go to school as a student (or instructor), and you might be able to get these for half price.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix (Flux) View Post


Yeah, since I came on this ship there's been a bit of re-bundling, basically because you guys, the customers, asked for it...
Fair enough, and of course, I was joking. You do seem to be a good sport.

BTW, I would love to see a Flux channel strip.

Also, how about a less expensive stereo version of the reverb?
Old 9th May 2010
  #109
Gear Maniac
 

I'm quite surprised, again, by most of the statements and a-priori made here.

Professional, today, would probably means nothing more than you earn enough money to live out of the practising of your skills and has nothing to do with the complexity of the tasks you handle, the price of your gears, or even the number of your albums available on the market anymore. For once.

"There's not such thing as too complex tools for general public" (dixit Microsoft Headquarter), and FLUX:: plugs (let's say Alchemist, because there's a good HUI guy translating what's underneath) are among the simplest tools in my non-professional arsenal. My DAW (logic's routing, midi environment and some of its plugins (i.e. Ultrabeat) ) for starters has a _FAR_ harder learning curve. In the same page, most of virtual instruments are more complexes than FX plugs. Should we talk about Reason here ?

But if you stay on the FX field, it gets even deeper if your compare FLUX:: plugs with the modular tools we, non-pro users, have to handle to achieve what we can't find on the market place. Like N.I. Reaktor. (Another good exemple - because the documentation is one of the poorest on earth - is Plogue Bidule. I use it as often as all the FLUX:: arsenal).
We're far here from the straight forward UI allowing you to position sounds sources and receiver on a well designed graphic space, play and tweak some reverb parameters via buttons and slider, to feed let's say a 7.1 matrix... We're talking about filling a white page with dozens of components, paths, constants, variables, and equations. But those modular tools are marketed for a wider audience.

Now, since the coming of new amazing cheap cam-recorder and cheap HD 3D tools, more and more friends of mine are working on their room on amazing HD 5.1 non-professional projects.

So my question is quite simple : who, between Proppellerhead or Native Instrument (Reaktor) and FLUX:: (SPAT) knows the market better ? Because, obviously, opposite points of view can't be right at the same time (market is not an Hegelian dialectic based game).

Last edited by Manuel75; 9th May 2010 at 11:45 AM.. Reason: typos
Old 9th May 2010
  #110
Gear Addict
 

There are definitely some very advanced tools out there, and as you clearly state, marketed for a "general public". And even if you don't find, as mentioned, Alchemist, or the way you can use Epure with the routing/groups and the M/S matrix, very difficult in comparison to Reaktor and Bidule, this appears to me as you have quite some experience and knowledge, and probably have good use of the depth of those plug-ins. Not all users have that, and not all users have the true need of the depth of these products, and this is what it's all about, our aim and focus is to make great tools for demanding users.

I have no idea about how much time and money NI or Propellerheads put into the support of their products, but I am sure it's not a project that we would be interested in undertaking (Have you ever logged in to the NI user forum? I do not envy the guys at NI keeping up with troubled users there).

Anyway, I am truly happy to get all this great feedback here, and if you, or anyone else, is interested in sending more feedback, I would be more than happy to receive that, you can email me direct at:

[email protected]





Thanks!


Cheers,
/Felix
Old 9th May 2010
  #111
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Coyoteous View Post
Well, that's what we call it in South Mylon... heh

Seriously though, I get your point.



Go to school as a student (or instructor), and you might be able to get these for half price.



Fair enough, and of course, I was joking. You do seem to be a good sport.

BTW, I would love to see a Flux channel strip.

Also, how about a less expensive stereo version of the reverb?

We have been talking about a channel strip, please feel free to send me any information about what you'd like in it (email in my last post above ^^^)..

And about a stereo version of VERB, I'll bring it to the round table and see what the general opinion is about that.



Thanks!


Cheers,
/Felix
Old 9th May 2010
  #112
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by OMU View Post
I had better support from many companies that sell copies to the "non-pro" users as well.

This says something.

Yeah, we had a tough time with your case, that is indeed for sure. But as far as I was informed it was resolved in the end?


It's really tough sometimes to replicate problems, and not seldom you setup the completely identical system as the user has, and you still can't replicate the problem, this is a worst case scenario, and I wish there was a simple way to get around this!


Thanks!

Cheers,
/felix
Old 9th May 2010
  #113
OMU
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OMU's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix (Flux) View Post
Yeah, we had a tough time with your case, that is indeed for sure. But as far as I was informed it was resolved in the end?
Not exactly. I found by myself a not so elegant workaround and since mentioning it your technician didn't bother to reply a thing.

This kind of attitude reminds me of Hartmann, who were very stubborn to make their products available to only a few people. Horrible customer support too. Didn't work that good for them.
Old 9th May 2010
  #114
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by OMU View Post
Not exactly. I found by myself a not so elegant workaround and since mentioning it your technician didn't bother to reply a thing.

This kind of attitude reminds me of Hartmann, who were very stubborn to make their products available to only a few people. Horrible customer support too. Didn't work that good for them.
I got the message that you where up and running, and hence case closed. I will have a chat with the dev, and then get back to you in an email to follow this up too.

Great thanks for mentioning this!


EDIT: Now I found you here, yeah, you came completely in between chairs, so to speak, and I am really sorry for this. We had a server crash this spring, and after that our bug report system completely freaked out. Without that system, trying to make problem investigations going smooth through customer-dev-me with email only, is really a PITA, I am terribly sorry for this!!!



Cheers,
/Felix
Old 9th May 2010
  #115
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Shaggy2039's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix (Flux) View Post
We have been talking about a channel strip
/Felix
This sounds cool. I can see the press release now...

FLUX IS PROUD TO ANNOUNCE ITS FIRST CHANNEL STRIP...PRICE: $4000.

heh
Old 9th May 2010
  #116
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy2039 View Post
This sounds cool. I can see the press release now...

FLUX IS PROUD TO ANNOUNCE ITS FIRST CHANNEL STRIP...PRICE: $4000.

heh

What would you want to see in a channelstrip for $4000 ?

heh


Cheers,
/Felix
Old 9th May 2010
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Felix (Flux) View Post
What would you want to see in a channelstrip for $4000 ?

heh


Cheers,
/Felix
Besides a fantastic EQ and compressor section, it'd have to be able to make me coffee and breakfast in the morning... heh

BTW - when Verb officially becomes available, will we be able to demo it?
Old 9th May 2010
  #118
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaggy2039 View Post
Besides a fantastic EQ and compressor section, it'd have to be able to make me coffee and breakfast in the morning... heh

BTW - when Verb officially becomes available, will we be able to demo it?
For $4000 I'd like it to be able to walk the dog and fetch the mail as well...

Yup, demos will be available of course..

:P

Cheers,
/Felix
Old 9th May 2010
  #119
OMU
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You could include a MacPro into the 4000$ channel strip
Old 9th May 2010
  #120
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by OMU View Post
You could include a MacPro into the 4000$ channel strip
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